[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=666600><b>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]So, if I am correct, Sparrow, you are simply against population growth itself - the methods of such growth being irrelevant? It did not seem like this was the original message you were conveying, in that you made the point to exclude conception from your ethics basket of wrongdoing.[/QUOTE]
sorry, what? i dont understand the question
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Are you against any form of creation of life, including conception? Or is there a reason you initially excluded conception?
Therapeutical cloning is really not about creating people, it's about stem cell research. As many other people I don't understand why therapeutical cloning is forbidden. It's okay to have an abortion after 16 weeks of pregnancy if the unborn child has a Down syndrome but it's not okay to use some cells which never would develop into a child anyway. The pure naming of a couple of cells an "embryo" thus insinuating we are dealing with an unborn child is ideology.
I understand that we have to be careful and not everything that can be done must be done but common sense must be applied. For example, it's allowed to import embryonic cells for research in some cases but it's not allowed to clone them in the laboratory, that's just plain ridiculous and nobody really can explain it.
I understand that we have to be careful and not everything that can be done must be done but common sense must be applied. For example, it's allowed to import embryonic cells for research in some cases but it's not allowed to clone them in the laboratory, that's just plain ridiculous and nobody really can explain it.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=666600><b>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Are you against any form of creation of life, including conception? Or is there a reason you initially excluded conception?[/QUOTE]
(this is sparrow from another sign-on)
i was saying any form of conception done by science seems unethical. im not against natural conception, but if any babies are made that should really be the only way (hell, with them being made the natural way, ive been saying they have enough problems as it is). things like cloning (if it were to advance) or IVF or artificial insemination (sp?) are unessesary, and are harmful to the population.
the other thing i was thinking is if someone does not have the ability to produce a child, there must be a genetic reason for it. so why interfere with that?
am i unclear? i could go in depth of how it relates to my beliefs, but we'll be here all week. i just see scientifically made lives are just due to selfish desisions...how it hurts things on a grand scale.
now maybe i didnt read into it far enough, but this cloning thing is just for helpin the growth of tissue, and curing diseases? if that is to step forward into ending of suffering with such diseases, fine, thats great, but if it escalates, then...well it'll be back to my point, really.
again, 'scuse the lack of better explainations. oddly enough i have been working on a philsophy report. one of these days ill explain better when im not swamped with essays and letters from my band, and headaches altogether.
(this is sparrow from another sign-on)
i was saying any form of conception done by science seems unethical. im not against natural conception, but if any babies are made that should really be the only way (hell, with them being made the natural way, ive been saying they have enough problems as it is). things like cloning (if it were to advance) or IVF or artificial insemination (sp?) are unessesary, and are harmful to the population.
the other thing i was thinking is if someone does not have the ability to produce a child, there must be a genetic reason for it. so why interfere with that?
am i unclear? i could go in depth of how it relates to my beliefs, but we'll be here all week. i just see scientifically made lives are just due to selfish desisions...how it hurts things on a grand scale.
now maybe i didnt read into it far enough, but this cloning thing is just for helpin the growth of tissue, and curing diseases? if that is to step forward into ending of suffering with such diseases, fine, thats great, but if it escalates, then...well it'll be back to my point, really.
again, 'scuse the lack of better explainations. oddly enough i have been working on a philsophy report. one of these days ill explain better when im not swamped with essays and letters from my band, and headaches altogether.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Lady Nyx wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
(...) IVF or artificial insemination (sp?) are unessesary, and are harmful to the population.
the other thing i was thinking is if someone does not have the ability to produce a child, there must be a genetic reason for it. so why interfere with that?
[/QUOTE]
Many people have bad eyes, heart problems, several types of cancer and many other problems for genetic reasons - So why interfere with that?
Some people want children, they can't have it by natural meanings, and science allow them to have their own kids.
And I don't find it unethical. I know there are many abandomned children in the world, but hey, people have the right to have their own children if they want. That's a bit how I feel about donating money. No matter how much you have, if you earned it all in a honest way, you don't owe anyone anything. It's not your fault if other people need money. It's nice of you to donate some, though. Same with kids, IMHO, it's nice of you to adopt one or two (or more), but if you'd rather get pregnant and have a kid that looks like you, nothing wrong with that.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Lady Nyx wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
now maybe i didnt read into it far enough, but this cloning thing is just for helpin the growth of tissue, and curing diseases? if that is to step forward into ending of suffering with such diseases, fine, thats great, but if it escalates, then...well it'll be back to my point, really.
[/QUOTE]
Why? Why is it good to do that to heal bad diseases? If you have them, there's a genetic reason and we shouldn't interfere, isn't it...? ;)
No, seriously, among serious scientists, most of them are working on how to successfully clone tissues and organs. Of course there are people trying to clone full humans, but I'm pretty sure that's not likely to work so soon.
If it ends up happening... Do your part. Don't get yourself cloned. Simple like that.
If you think IVF is wrong - don't do it.
That's what I always say to conservative who are against gay marriage or usage of condoms. If you think homosexualism is wrong, we assume you won't do it, so why do you need a law forbidding it? Afraid of betraying your own ideas and doing it?
(...) IVF or artificial insemination (sp?) are unessesary, and are harmful to the population.
the other thing i was thinking is if someone does not have the ability to produce a child, there must be a genetic reason for it. so why interfere with that?
[/QUOTE]
Many people have bad eyes, heart problems, several types of cancer and many other problems for genetic reasons - So why interfere with that?
Some people want children, they can't have it by natural meanings, and science allow them to have their own kids.
And I don't find it unethical. I know there are many abandomned children in the world, but hey, people have the right to have their own children if they want. That's a bit how I feel about donating money. No matter how much you have, if you earned it all in a honest way, you don't owe anyone anything. It's not your fault if other people need money. It's nice of you to donate some, though. Same with kids, IMHO, it's nice of you to adopt one or two (or more), but if you'd rather get pregnant and have a kid that looks like you, nothing wrong with that.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Lady Nyx wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
now maybe i didnt read into it far enough, but this cloning thing is just for helpin the growth of tissue, and curing diseases? if that is to step forward into ending of suffering with such diseases, fine, thats great, but if it escalates, then...well it'll be back to my point, really.
[/QUOTE]
Why? Why is it good to do that to heal bad diseases? If you have them, there's a genetic reason and we shouldn't interfere, isn't it...? ;)
No, seriously, among serious scientists, most of them are working on how to successfully clone tissues and organs. Of course there are people trying to clone full humans, but I'm pretty sure that's not likely to work so soon.
If it ends up happening... Do your part. Don't get yourself cloned. Simple like that.
If you think IVF is wrong - don't do it.
That's what I always say to conservative who are against gay marriage or usage of condoms. If you think homosexualism is wrong, we assume you won't do it, so why do you need a law forbidding it? Afraid of betraying your own ideas and doing it?
After the amount of napalm and Agent Orange we chucked at Vietnam, the absolute toasting of Dresden, the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the TWO Gulf Wars, and all that pesky civil war in a little place called Africa,
nobody can tell me that the human race holds the sanctity of life above anything else.
nobody can tell me that the human race holds the sanctity of life above anything else.
My question, Sparrow, is how, in any way, is natural conception any different than IVF or cloning?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color="lime">Raf840 wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Lady Nyx wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
(...) IVF or artificial insemination (sp?) are unessesary, and are harmful to the population.
the other thing i was thinking is if someone does not have the ability to produce a child, there must be a genetic reason for it. so why interfere with that?
[/QUOTE]
Many people have bad eyes, heart problems, several types of cancer and many other problems for genetic reasons - So why interfere with that?
Some people want children, they can't have it by natural meanings, and science allow them to have their own kids.
And I don't find it unethical. I know there are many abandomned children in the world, but hey, people have the right to have their own children if they want. That's a bit how I feel about donating money. No matter how much you have, if you earned it all in a honest way, you don't owe anyone anything. It's not your fault if other people need money. It's nice of you to donate some, though. Same with kids, IMHO, it's nice of you to adopt one or two (or more), but if you'd rather get pregnant and have a kid that looks like you, nothing wrong with that.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Lady Nyx wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
now maybe i didnt read into it far enough, but this cloning thing is just for helpin the growth of tissue, and curing diseases? if that is to step forward into ending of suffering with such diseases, fine, thats great, but if it escalates, then...well it'll be back to my point, really.
[/QUOTE]
Why? Why is it good to do that to heal bad diseases? If you have them, there's a genetic reason and we shouldn't interfere, isn't it...? ;)
No, seriously, among serious scientists, most of them are working on how to successfully clone tissues and organs. Of course there are people trying to clone full humans, but I'm pretty sure that's not likely to work so soon.
If it ends up happening... Do your part. Don't get yourself cloned. Simple like that.
If you think IVF is wrong - don't do it.
That's what I always say to conservative who are against gay marriage or usage of condoms. If you think homosexualism is wrong, we assume you won't do it, so why do you need a law forbidding it? Afraid of betraying your own ideas and doing it?[/QUOTE]
i was simply stating an opinion, raf. im not gonna go on a crusade for it. most of what you said goes without saying. of course if im against it, i wont take part in it.
i never said i was against the fact that they may clone tissue, if its a step to cure diseases. its fine to find a way to cure diseases, and if its to help natural ferility, then fine.
its the idea of creating a life, a full human thru science, and i stated my reasons behind it.
and its not to say i have anything against hte children who are made from things like IVF (or if it somehow escalates, which you mightve missed me saying, into forming a life thru cloning). it was not their choice to be created that way. just like children who are abandoned or abused and deserved to be saved. i just see it as a selfish matter to rule out the idea of helping another by furthering this imbalence is all.
(...) IVF or artificial insemination (sp?) are unessesary, and are harmful to the population.
the other thing i was thinking is if someone does not have the ability to produce a child, there must be a genetic reason for it. so why interfere with that?
[/QUOTE]
Many people have bad eyes, heart problems, several types of cancer and many other problems for genetic reasons - So why interfere with that?
Some people want children, they can't have it by natural meanings, and science allow them to have their own kids.
And I don't find it unethical. I know there are many abandomned children in the world, but hey, people have the right to have their own children if they want. That's a bit how I feel about donating money. No matter how much you have, if you earned it all in a honest way, you don't owe anyone anything. It's not your fault if other people need money. It's nice of you to donate some, though. Same with kids, IMHO, it's nice of you to adopt one or two (or more), but if you'd rather get pregnant and have a kid that looks like you, nothing wrong with that.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Lady Nyx wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
now maybe i didnt read into it far enough, but this cloning thing is just for helpin the growth of tissue, and curing diseases? if that is to step forward into ending of suffering with such diseases, fine, thats great, but if it escalates, then...well it'll be back to my point, really.
[/QUOTE]
Why? Why is it good to do that to heal bad diseases? If you have them, there's a genetic reason and we shouldn't interfere, isn't it...? ;)
No, seriously, among serious scientists, most of them are working on how to successfully clone tissues and organs. Of course there are people trying to clone full humans, but I'm pretty sure that's not likely to work so soon.
If it ends up happening... Do your part. Don't get yourself cloned. Simple like that.
If you think IVF is wrong - don't do it.
That's what I always say to conservative who are against gay marriage or usage of condoms. If you think homosexualism is wrong, we assume you won't do it, so why do you need a law forbidding it? Afraid of betraying your own ideas and doing it?[/QUOTE]
i was simply stating an opinion, raf. im not gonna go on a crusade for it. most of what you said goes without saying. of course if im against it, i wont take part in it.
i never said i was against the fact that they may clone tissue, if its a step to cure diseases. its fine to find a way to cure diseases, and if its to help natural ferility, then fine.
its the idea of creating a life, a full human thru science, and i stated my reasons behind it.
and its not to say i have anything against hte children who are made from things like IVF (or if it somehow escalates, which you mightve missed me saying, into forming a life thru cloning). it was not their choice to be created that way. just like children who are abandoned or abused and deserved to be saved. i just see it as a selfish matter to rule out the idea of helping another by furthering this imbalence is all.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=666600><b>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]My question, Sparrow, is how, in any way, is natural conception any different than IVF or cloning?[/QUOTE]
simply the fact that one is creating a life in the lab, and a nother naturally. there are already enough humans made thru natural conception, why create a further imbalence thru creation of life in a lab?
its just the way i see it. it just seems selfish to rule out the idea of helping one another, or looking at things futuristically. im not going to condemn people who have had it done or anything (damage is done anyway), but i still think its just a selfish move to have a child thru IVF (or if it makes it to that point, cloning).
in a perfect world, people would use contraceptives (or if you really want to get to 'ideals or religion' or whatnot, and not have sex...) untill they were ready to have a child. in a perfect world, stupid people would not exist (since that has been pointed out) but stupidity is also pretty relative. there is already enough irresonsibility with natural conception, and too many lives ignored, that i just see lives being made scientifically is just unessesary.
i added more to my reply to raf's quote, if youre interested.
normally i can sit back and say 'hey, if its not hurting anyone, then whats the problem?' and i let it be. but i do see a problem in this. will i go out and create a scene and get people to believe me? no. if they agree with me, fine, if they disagree, fine. im just stating an opinion.
simply the fact that one is creating a life in the lab, and a nother naturally. there are already enough humans made thru natural conception, why create a further imbalence thru creation of life in a lab?
its just the way i see it. it just seems selfish to rule out the idea of helping one another, or looking at things futuristically. im not going to condemn people who have had it done or anything (damage is done anyway), but i still think its just a selfish move to have a child thru IVF (or if it makes it to that point, cloning).
in a perfect world, people would use contraceptives (or if you really want to get to 'ideals or religion' or whatnot, and not have sex...) untill they were ready to have a child. in a perfect world, stupid people would not exist (since that has been pointed out) but stupidity is also pretty relative. there is already enough irresonsibility with natural conception, and too many lives ignored, that i just see lives being made scientifically is just unessesary.
i added more to my reply to raf's quote, if youre interested.
normally i can sit back and say 'hey, if its not hurting anyone, then whats the problem?' and i let it be. but i do see a problem in this. will i go out and create a scene and get people to believe me? no. if they agree with me, fine, if they disagree, fine. im just stating an opinion.
i'd like to agree that this whole cloning idea is unethical in more ways than one, but to go deeper into this, i'd go all religion, philosophy and ethics and people will bash me for it anyway. so, i'd rather just say that i find it unethical.
bow.
bow.