There's a fair point in this, Cas, but Russian troops were there for the last 15 years - what kind of provocation do you mean? Georgian troops two days ago were there for 13 times bigger than Russians, though by international agreements there can't be any Georgian troops at all in this region.
Being Russian myself I can tell you for sure that your version about annexation of Abchazia and SO is funny, but nothing more. Even hardcore Russian nationalists would never dream about it. And by the way there are not so many ethnic Russians, there are many citizens of Russia, but they're Ossetians. Though we've used that all nations who live in Russia are Russians for Western minds...
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[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Serry... wrote: [/QUOTENAME]There's a fair point in this, Cas, but Russian troops were there for the last 15 years - what kind of provocation do you mean? Georgian troops two days ago were there for 13 times bigger than Russians, though by international agreements there can't be any Georgian troops at all in this region.
Being Russian myself I can tell you for sure that your version about annexation of Abchazia and SO is funny, but nothing more. Even hardcore Russian nationalists would never dream about it. And by the way there are not so many ethnic Russians, there are many citizens of Russia, but they're Ossetians. Though we've used that all nations who live in Russia are Russians for Western minds...[/QUOTE]
International media report that South Ossetia's population is 70% ethnic Russian, with no specifications given for Abchazia, but for remarks that the situation there is similar. This may be wrong, but it is all the info I have. The provocation I refer to is the fact that over the last 15 days, Russian military activity around the Georgian border has dramatically increased. Granted, that is no immediate cause for a war, but I can imagine how it would be intimidating for a country struggling with a separatist region.
One thing that I find grossly unacceptable, however, is the deliberate targeting of CIVILIANS by Russian military. Airstrikes far outside South Ossetia have been reported, and they have predominantly been against civilian targets. I would just like to point out that this is a war crime.
Being Russian myself I can tell you for sure that your version about annexation of Abchazia and SO is funny, but nothing more. Even hardcore Russian nationalists would never dream about it. And by the way there are not so many ethnic Russians, there are many citizens of Russia, but they're Ossetians. Though we've used that all nations who live in Russia are Russians for Western minds...[/QUOTE]
International media report that South Ossetia's population is 70% ethnic Russian, with no specifications given for Abchazia, but for remarks that the situation there is similar. This may be wrong, but it is all the info I have. The provocation I refer to is the fact that over the last 15 days, Russian military activity around the Georgian border has dramatically increased. Granted, that is no immediate cause for a war, but I can imagine how it would be intimidating for a country struggling with a separatist region.
One thing that I find grossly unacceptable, however, is the deliberate targeting of CIVILIANS by Russian military. Airstrikes far outside South Ossetia have been reported, and they have predominantly been against civilian targets. I would just like to point out that this is a war crime.
"International media report that South Ossetia's population is 70% ethnic Russian, with no specifications given for Abchazia, but for remarks that the situation there is similar. This may be wrong, but it is all the info I have."
This is wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#Demographics << this is more right. Ossetians have nothing to with Russians, Slavs etc. As you may see Russians were there usually for about 2% of whole population.
"One thing that I find grossly unacceptable, however, is the deliberate targeting of CIVILIANS by Russian military. Airstrikes far outside South Ossetia have been reported, and they have predominantly been against civilian targets."
This is wrong too. Well, as you understand I can't be objective here for 100%, but over 2000 Ossetians were killed by Georgian troops, who was killed by Russian troops - I don't know. Neither I don't know what was bombed-out in Georgia by our army, though it's true that there have already been some airstikes outside SO.
This is wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#Demographics << this is more right. Ossetians have nothing to with Russians, Slavs etc. As you may see Russians were there usually for about 2% of whole population.
"One thing that I find grossly unacceptable, however, is the deliberate targeting of CIVILIANS by Russian military. Airstrikes far outside South Ossetia have been reported, and they have predominantly been against civilian targets."
This is wrong too. Well, as you understand I can't be objective here for 100%, but over 2000 Ossetians were killed by Georgian troops, who was killed by Russian troops - I don't know. Neither I don't know what was bombed-out in Georgia by our army, though it's true that there have already been some airstikes outside SO.
I have already stated that the Georgian attack on Ossetia was wrong and illegal; thus, I do not condone their use of force there. However, I am now pointing to Russian military activity OUTSIDE the combat zone. Using military force against civilian targets is a war crime; using military force against regions not being contested (such as: the rest of Georgia) is also a war crime, not to mention a serious provocation.
Recent developments (see: Reuters, CNN, BBC etc.):
* Ukraine threatens to deny Russian navy access to Sebastopol
* Georgia claims it has withdrawn its troops from South Ossetia
* Russia denies this, says it will push on into western Georgia.
EDIT: and now QZ's banner adds ask me, at the top of the page, to date Russian girls, and at the bottom of the page, to date Ukrainian girls XD
Recent developments (see: Reuters, CNN, BBC etc.):
* Ukraine threatens to deny Russian navy access to Sebastopol
* Georgia claims it has withdrawn its troops from South Ossetia
* Russia denies this, says it will push on into western Georgia.
EDIT: and now QZ's banner adds ask me, at the top of the page, to date Russian girls, and at the bottom of the page, to date Ukrainian girls XD
I am not well informed but isn't it true that Georgia applied for NATO membership which Russia regards as a provocation? Who wants to prove what to whom in the current war is beyond me but my gut feeling tells me that the NATO should stay away from former Soviet Union states and give them the chance to build up a normal peaceful neighbour relationship. I am sure there are many chances to have economical and cultural relationships between former Soviet Union states and the rest of the world without Georgia being in the NATO and frightening their neighbours.
Remembering the second Gulf war (1991) when Iraq invaded Kuweit the coalition bombed Bagdad, they did not care if they killed civilians. When you start a war it can easily happen that your own people are killed just as cruelly as your own military killed other people.
Remembering the second Gulf war (1991) when Iraq invaded Kuweit the coalition bombed Bagdad, they did not care if they killed civilians. When you start a war it can easily happen that your own people are killed just as cruelly as your own military killed other people.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Serry... wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Freya is quietly judging you. wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
I understand that Georgia became independant of Russia, then Georgia wanted to own the other bit, and the other bit got pissed off and Russia sided with the other bit and bombs were thrown.
[/QUOTE]
Georgia became independant of Soviet Union, not of Russia. Stop confusing Russia and USSR, Georgia was part of USSR as well as Russia with the same rights. [/QUOTE]
All right! As I said, I really have no idea, hence why I was asking. I thank you for your answer.
I understand that Georgia became independant of Russia, then Georgia wanted to own the other bit, and the other bit got pissed off and Russia sided with the other bit and bombs were thrown.
[/QUOTE]
Georgia became independant of Soviet Union, not of Russia. Stop confusing Russia and USSR, Georgia was part of USSR as well as Russia with the same rights. [/QUOTE]
All right! As I said, I really have no idea, hence why I was asking. I thank you for your answer.
OK, now I have to sound like a complete a total feminist, but why does this seem like simply a testosterone contest? Whether Russia likes it or not, these countries (Georgia and all other former USSR countries) are independent. They are sovereign, and free to associate with whomever they want. If they want to be members of NATO, or the UN, or any other organization like that, they have the perfect right to. Joining something doesn't make you a threat to anything. I understand that Putin, who I agree with Caspar is still in control, may still be desiring some kind of empiristic-desire to "re-create glory". Tough crap. Those days are over, as the US is quickly finding out in the Middle East, just as Iran will if they keep pushing the same line.
And from the very limited amount of information I've seen on this, it doesn't sound like Georgia is innocent either. When it becomes obvious that posturing is beginning within diplomatic negotiations, continuing to push to aggression has one result: Aggression. It's not a damn poker game. It's war, and innocent people die. So you go to war for a week to prove your point and then call for a cease fire. That's great. And what about all of the people who died? They are still dead.
And from the very limited amount of information I've seen on this, it doesn't sound like Georgia is innocent either. When it becomes obvious that posturing is beginning within diplomatic negotiations, continuing to push to aggression has one result: Aggression. It's not a damn poker game. It's war, and innocent people die. So you go to war for a week to prove your point and then call for a cease fire. That's great. And what about all of the people who died? They are still dead.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]MasterHistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME] Whether Russia likes it or not, these countries (Georgia and all other former USSR countries) are independent. They are sovereign, and free to associate with whomever they want. [/QUOTE]
Because they are not independent, whenever something bad happens with them they ask for our help, whenever they need in the cheap oil and gas they ask us for it, etc. etc. etc. And as I know Russia is sovereign and free to associate with Iran but your government doesn't seem like the giant fan club of such association, why do you except us to be happy with their associations with anti-Russian unions?
Because they are not independent, whenever something bad happens with them they ask for our help, whenever they need in the cheap oil and gas they ask us for it, etc. etc. etc. And as I know Russia is sovereign and free to associate with Iran but your government doesn't seem like the giant fan club of such association, why do you except us to be happy with their associations with anti-Russian unions?
"If they want to be members of NATO, or the UN, or any other organization like that, they have the perfect right to. Joining something doesn't make you a threat to anything."
I beg to disagree, I think it does. Georgia has the right to join the NATO but the NATO should not accept Georgia. It's not in the interest of Europe to create new tensions with Russia. We need trust on this continent and we need peace. Saakaschwili attacked South Ossetia with no prior warning. Now some say that Rusdsia over-reacted but how did the NATO react to the 9/11 attack? They are still in Afghanistan and 100 000s of people died. The NATO is not a gentlemen's club, it's a miltary alliance and Russia has every reason t feel threatened if a neighbour like Georgia joins.
I beg to disagree, I think it does. Georgia has the right to join the NATO but the NATO should not accept Georgia. It's not in the interest of Europe to create new tensions with Russia. We need trust on this continent and we need peace. Saakaschwili attacked South Ossetia with no prior warning. Now some say that Rusdsia over-reacted but how did the NATO react to the 9/11 attack? They are still in Afghanistan and 100 000s of people died. The NATO is not a gentlemen's club, it's a miltary alliance and Russia has every reason t feel threatened if a neighbour like Georgia joins.
Hey, I never said my government was perfect. Indeed, far from it. True, we aren't thrilled with Russia's contacts with Iran. But we haven't used it as an excuse to go to war with you. (Granted under this administration that is a possibility, but you have to seperate this particular administration from the US in general). We aren't happy when countries talk to people who don't like us. But we don't stop them; we allow Pakistan to do it, even though there is ample proof that maybe we shouldn't.
But there is a distinction that you need to make, Serry. These countries are independent by law. What they are not, however, is self-reliant. There is a big difference. Self-reliance is not necessarily required for independence. Can you think of any country that is technically self-reliant? Who doesn't import anything they need from anyone? I can't.
As far as joining NATO being a threat...that's a perfect example of what I mean. Paranoia. Sometimes a spade is just a spade; many world leaders would be better off to take that into consideration. Why do countries want to join NATO? Various reasons, of which military protection is certainly one. But think about this for a second; why would a country feel the need for military protection if they did not feel threatened? Just because a country joins NATO, even for the expressed purpose of military protection, it doesn't mean they will use it aggressively to launch an offensive campaign. Maybe that entire mess of Russia/USSR breakaway countries would do best to take stock of WHY they feel threatened by other parties. Do some introspection if you will. Rather than assume that a military attack is eminent.
That's what my country's administration has done since the attacks of 9-11. Paranoia leads to aggression, violation of rights, isolation and inevitably death for thousands of innocent people. Thinking about the "Why" is something I sure wish the government had done with Islamic Extremists. Heaven knows I'm not defending them, but defeating an idea is a lot easier when you understand how the idea works and why it's so popular.
But there is a distinction that you need to make, Serry. These countries are independent by law. What they are not, however, is self-reliant. There is a big difference. Self-reliance is not necessarily required for independence. Can you think of any country that is technically self-reliant? Who doesn't import anything they need from anyone? I can't.
As far as joining NATO being a threat...that's a perfect example of what I mean. Paranoia. Sometimes a spade is just a spade; many world leaders would be better off to take that into consideration. Why do countries want to join NATO? Various reasons, of which military protection is certainly one. But think about this for a second; why would a country feel the need for military protection if they did not feel threatened? Just because a country joins NATO, even for the expressed purpose of military protection, it doesn't mean they will use it aggressively to launch an offensive campaign. Maybe that entire mess of Russia/USSR breakaway countries would do best to take stock of WHY they feel threatened by other parties. Do some introspection if you will. Rather than assume that a military attack is eminent.
That's what my country's administration has done since the attacks of 9-11. Paranoia leads to aggression, violation of rights, isolation and inevitably death for thousands of innocent people. Thinking about the "Why" is something I sure wish the government had done with Islamic Extremists. Heaven knows I'm not defending them, but defeating an idea is a lot easier when you understand how the idea works and why it's so popular.
"True, we aren't thrilled with Russia's contacts with Iran. But we haven't used it as an excuse to go to war with you."
We haven't any war with parts of the former Soviet Union because they wanted to be in NATO either. Some countries are already in NATO and they don't have any military troubles with us. And to be honest your war with Iran is not that impossible, IMHO.
"Who doesn't import anything they need from anyone?"
Well, Ukraine may import our gas, but if we'll sell it to them by the prices as for other European countries - their economic will collapse. And what we got back for saving them from economic crisis? Anti-Russian statements by their President (fucking hell, he even wants to have separate Ukrainian Orthodox Church since now Russia, Belarus and Ukraine are under Russian Orthodox Church for the few last centuries) and anti-Russian activities. This is not about 'lick our arses and be thankful', this is about normal and civilized relations. Germany, with whom we had two bloody wars during 30 years, are our best friends in Europe, because we're cooperating in normal, winning way. We open for dialogue, our neighbours are not. Just take a look at few comments in this thread: 'Let's bomb Russia', 'Fuck the Russia', anti-Russian propaganda machine from the Cold war is still working. Georgian politics talk about crimes of the USSR just like they have never been in the USSR, just like Stalin and Beria weren't ethnic Georgians and the whole world believe in 'Russian aggression' and 'occupation of Georgia since 1918'.
We haven't any war with parts of the former Soviet Union because they wanted to be in NATO either. Some countries are already in NATO and they don't have any military troubles with us. And to be honest your war with Iran is not that impossible, IMHO.
"Who doesn't import anything they need from anyone?"
Well, Ukraine may import our gas, but if we'll sell it to them by the prices as for other European countries - their economic will collapse. And what we got back for saving them from economic crisis? Anti-Russian statements by their President (fucking hell, he even wants to have separate Ukrainian Orthodox Church since now Russia, Belarus and Ukraine are under Russian Orthodox Church for the few last centuries) and anti-Russian activities. This is not about 'lick our arses and be thankful', this is about normal and civilized relations. Germany, with whom we had two bloody wars during 30 years, are our best friends in Europe, because we're cooperating in normal, winning way. We open for dialogue, our neighbours are not. Just take a look at few comments in this thread: 'Let's bomb Russia', 'Fuck the Russia', anti-Russian propaganda machine from the Cold war is still working. Georgian politics talk about crimes of the USSR just like they have never been in the USSR, just like Stalin and Beria weren't ethnic Georgians and the whole world believe in 'Russian aggression' and 'occupation of Georgia since 1918'.
Serry.
I must apologize if you were offended by my comment.
It was in no way a reflection of my own political views, merely a strange quote.
QZ and sarcsm, you know.
P.S I hope Russia takes over the world.
I must apologize if you were offended by my comment.
It was in no way a reflection of my own political views, merely a strange quote.
QZ and sarcsm, you know.
P.S I hope Russia takes over the world.
Serry, why exactly are you so touchy? Pride in one's country is one thing, but sheesh! People bash the US right, left and center and I don't get all jacked out of shape about it.
So the president of the Ukraine talks bad about you. So what? Did you happen to hear the things that the UK and France were saying about the US during 2004-2005? They are our closest allies, but you'd never know that by listening to the political speeches.
As for the comments of idiots about Russia...they are comments from idiots. What do you expect? But remember, you have an inside view, a view that is probably very different from ours. From the outside, what we see of Russia is the poisoning (attempted assassination) of a Ukrainian candidate for the Presidency. We see Putin consolidating power in a way that would make Bush giddy. We see the sudden assassination of a Russian dissident by radioactive poisoning in London. We see progressively anti-Western European statements on behalf of the government. We see Putin hand-picking his successor and creating a new title for himself because he's term limited out of office. What would you say if that's all you saw of a country?
I'm not trying to rag on you, I'm more than willing to listen to more sides of the debate; that's one of the reasons I like this place, because I can chat with people from other countries about issues and expand my POV. But that is the image that comes out. If there is another side to it, please enlighten us because heaven knows no one else is. But relax a little bit; forget about idiots who don't know their arses from their elbows.
So the president of the Ukraine talks bad about you. So what? Did you happen to hear the things that the UK and France were saying about the US during 2004-2005? They are our closest allies, but you'd never know that by listening to the political speeches.
As for the comments of idiots about Russia...they are comments from idiots. What do you expect? But remember, you have an inside view, a view that is probably very different from ours. From the outside, what we see of Russia is the poisoning (attempted assassination) of a Ukrainian candidate for the Presidency. We see Putin consolidating power in a way that would make Bush giddy. We see the sudden assassination of a Russian dissident by radioactive poisoning in London. We see progressively anti-Western European statements on behalf of the government. We see Putin hand-picking his successor and creating a new title for himself because he's term limited out of office. What would you say if that's all you saw of a country?
I'm not trying to rag on you, I'm more than willing to listen to more sides of the debate; that's one of the reasons I like this place, because I can chat with people from other countries about issues and expand my POV. But that is the image that comes out. If there is another side to it, please enlighten us because heaven knows no one else is. But relax a little bit; forget about idiots who don't know their arses from their elbows.
"We see Putin hand-picking his successor and creating a new title for himself because he's term limited out of office."
He's Prime Minister, there's nothing new in this title. And what's wrong that he's still 'in charge'? I've heard this arguement three times in this thread, what's the problem? That's okay for Mr Roosevelt to be the President for four terms, but no one else can be 'Roosevelt' for their countries? I know that weak Russia with Yeltsin was funny for the rest of the world, but we wanted something else for our country and Mr Putin gave us that 'something else'. You have to live here to see the changes.
It seems like only Cuba and Panama are brave enough to say that Georgian aggression towards Ossetia wasn't right, other countries still discuss about how evil Russians are. Toy given to the kids, kids are happy.
He's Prime Minister, there's nothing new in this title. And what's wrong that he's still 'in charge'? I've heard this arguement three times in this thread, what's the problem? That's okay for Mr Roosevelt to be the President for four terms, but no one else can be 'Roosevelt' for their countries? I know that weak Russia with Yeltsin was funny for the rest of the world, but we wanted something else for our country and Mr Putin gave us that 'something else'. You have to live here to see the changes.
It seems like only Cuba and Panama are brave enough to say that Georgian aggression towards Ossetia wasn't right, other countries still discuss about how evil Russians are. Toy given to the kids, kids are happy.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]MasterHistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME] OK, now I have to sound like a complete a total feminist, but why does this seem like simply a testosterone contest? Whether Russia likes it or not, these countries (Georgia and all other former USSR countries) are independent. They are sovereign, and free to associate with whomever they want. If they want to be members of NATO, or the UN, or any other organization like that, they have the perfect right to. Joining something doesn't make you a threat to anything. I understand that Putin, who I agree with Caspar is still in control, may still be desiring some kind of empiristic-desire to "re-create glory". Tough crap. Those days are over, as the US is quickly finding out in the Middle East, just as Iran will if they keep pushing the same line.
And from the very limited amount of information I've seen on this, it doesn't sound like Georgia is innocent either. When it becomes obvious that posturing is beginning within diplomatic negotiations, continuing to push to aggression has one result: Aggression. It's not a damn poker game. It's war, and innocent people die. So you go to war for a week to prove your point and then call for a cease fire. That's great. And what about all of the people who died? They are still dead. [/QUOTE]
In a very short summary: Georgia provoked this war, Russia is in the process of milking it for all it's worth, and both sides have no problem whatsoever with committing war crimes at the rate China produces Chinese.
And from the very limited amount of information I've seen on this, it doesn't sound like Georgia is innocent either. When it becomes obvious that posturing is beginning within diplomatic negotiations, continuing to push to aggression has one result: Aggression. It's not a damn poker game. It's war, and innocent people die. So you go to war for a week to prove your point and then call for a cease fire. That's great. And what about all of the people who died? They are still dead. [/QUOTE]
In a very short summary: Georgia provoked this war, Russia is in the process of milking it for all it's worth, and both sides have no problem whatsoever with committing war crimes at the rate China produces Chinese.