[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Micrówave wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/QUOTENAME]We have working LASERS to shoot down missiles.
Granted, we're still improving on them, but they are in working order (current systems work by shutting down all electronics in the missile, later versions might actually explode the warhead), and do far less damage to the surroundings than Patriot Missiles do.[/QUOTE]
Ok, so you DO live in the Star Trek world. Or maybe Austin Powers. Did you make Quotation Marks in the air when you typed "LASERS"?[/QUOTE]
Are you mentally slow? Most UAVs are equiped with them!
[QUOTE]OK, smart guy. I'm glad you're not in charge of this country's defense, and your statement probably explains your own country's capabilities.[/QUOTE]
Wow. Supposing my country must be like me. If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were the strategic adviser responsible for the Vietnam war.
[QUOTE] You don't use something that's not tested and true.[/QUOTE]
Which laser defense has, and that might just be why it is in full operational service as we speak. You do know that it is 2008, right? Not 1978.
[QUOTE] The Patriot missles work, period. If you're gonna bitch about the trees and lovely park that was destroyed by using them, fine. At least several hundred people weren't killed.[QUOTE]
That's the whole point; they killed dozens of civilians when they fell on residential quarters in Israel during the first Gulf War.
[QUOTE]If you're going to be an obnoxious ass, please do so *after* comprehending the subject matter. [/QUOTE]
That's never stopped you before.[/QUOTE]
Cheap and lame. I say no more.
[QUOTE]Oh, and if you'd bothered to read before screaming your head off, you'd have noticed that I was responding to a post by The Miracle. Read that, then go sit in a corner and feel ashamed.[/QUOTE]
You're the guy that sits in the corner after posting on the internet. I mean really, we know that you don't really have a job with any real kind of responsibilities, so you come on here with your mindless rants and attack everyone who disagrees with you. And it's the same ol' boring crap... you're like a re-run.[/QUOTE]
*yawn* See the above.
[QUOTE]Try having a conversation. I know you can't do that in the real world without getting your ass handed to you on several occaisions. But why don't you try to back up your bullshit with fact. Maybe sometime. I know it's tough for you.[/QUOTE]
I regularly do so. In fact, a significant number of times a day. Some of them are quite interesting, too. Just because your life is exactly as dull as your QueenZone existence, it doesn't mean mine is the same. It's not. See, that's your problem: your vision suffers from projection. In analogy: you presume that, if you can't see it, it can't see you.
[QUOTE]Have a better day. Maybe you and Jake should hookup.[/QUOTE]
Right. I take back when I said "lame" above. If I use it there, no accurate term is left to describe this. Really, you ARE one fucking deranged nutcase.
Thread
Posts in chronological order
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]"True.. it's all our fault that there are people dieing in Georgia. ;-)"
I am sure it's not my fault :) and I have no idea what you are trying to say. If Russia retreats to the "pre-crisis" (why not call it "pre-war"?) positions which they hopefully do, the situation will be calm for now but the problem won't be solved at all. There will still be the two provinces who declared themselves independent, there is still a NATO applicant right on the Russian doorstep who is not willing to recognize this independence but wants to own them and there is still an ex-superpower who won't appreciate being told around by the NATO and the USA. Where does safety, common sense and diplomacy come into the picture? I do not see it. Instead, I see the cold war rethoric returning at alarming speed. [/QUOTE]
It's more that you're saying that we (as being the Western countries) give Russia reasons to stay in Georgia for a few more days. But maybe Russia just doesn't want to leave?
I'm not sure what's the right thing to do in this case. You can be soft to Russia, partly give them what you want and stay friends for a bit more. But don't you give them green light to gain more power then? That's how Hitler got big. Bit by bit he started to gain power... and the rest saw it and just watched him building a super army.
Don't get me wrong. It's not my intention to compare Medvedev with Hitler, but this might be the moment to tell him what he can and what he can't do. Invading another country and kill thousands of people is something that you can't just let happen I think. You see the cold war rhetoric returning at alarming speed? Maybe you're right... or maybe this is the time to get a hold on the Russians. Because when you give Russia the space to act like this, then a cold war will be there in the near future anyway.
I am sure it's not my fault :) and I have no idea what you are trying to say. If Russia retreats to the "pre-crisis" (why not call it "pre-war"?) positions which they hopefully do, the situation will be calm for now but the problem won't be solved at all. There will still be the two provinces who declared themselves independent, there is still a NATO applicant right on the Russian doorstep who is not willing to recognize this independence but wants to own them and there is still an ex-superpower who won't appreciate being told around by the NATO and the USA. Where does safety, common sense and diplomacy come into the picture? I do not see it. Instead, I see the cold war rethoric returning at alarming speed. [/QUOTE]
It's more that you're saying that we (as being the Western countries) give Russia reasons to stay in Georgia for a few more days. But maybe Russia just doesn't want to leave?
I'm not sure what's the right thing to do in this case. You can be soft to Russia, partly give them what you want and stay friends for a bit more. But don't you give them green light to gain more power then? That's how Hitler got big. Bit by bit he started to gain power... and the rest saw it and just watched him building a super army.
Don't get me wrong. It's not my intention to compare Medvedev with Hitler, but this might be the moment to tell him what he can and what he can't do. Invading another country and kill thousands of people is something that you can't just let happen I think. You see the cold war rhetoric returning at alarming speed? Maybe you're right... or maybe this is the time to get a hold on the Russians. Because when you give Russia the space to act like this, then a cold war will be there in the near future anyway.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Today the NATO made a big fuss about Georgia being a sovereign state which is occupied by Russia - true but what about the right of the people in South Ossetia to decide for themselves? Why can Georgia be an independent state after the USSR dissolved and South Ossetia can't? There was not a single word about recognizing South Ossetia, so who is supposed to protect their rights?
[/QUOTE]
Yes - South Ossettia should be recognized, allowed to secede from Georgia, be their own country, and decide if they want Russian peacekeepers. I seem to remember reading that the majority of South Ossetians have Russian passports, so perhaps South Ossetia would prefer having Russian peace keepers rather than peacekeepers from pro-western NATO nations.
However, I further believe that the Georgian president should immediately resign for invading South Ossetia. Otherwise, it seems Russia has no viable reason for withdrawing from Georgia, with a hostile nation on their doorstep.
[/QUOTE]
Yes - South Ossettia should be recognized, allowed to secede from Georgia, be their own country, and decide if they want Russian peacekeepers. I seem to remember reading that the majority of South Ossetians have Russian passports, so perhaps South Ossetia would prefer having Russian peace keepers rather than peacekeepers from pro-western NATO nations.
However, I further believe that the Georgian president should immediately resign for invading South Ossetia. Otherwise, it seems Russia has no viable reason for withdrawing from Georgia, with a hostile nation on their doorstep.
Interesting report issued by Human Rights Watch:
--------------------------------------------
Georgia: Russian Cluster Bombs Kill Civilians -
Stop Using Weapon Banned by 107 Nations
(Tbilisi, August 15, 2008) - Human Rights Watch researchers have uncovered evidence that Russian aircraft dropped cluster bombs in populated areas in Georgia, killing at least 11 civilians and injuring dozens, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch called upon Russia to immediately stop using cluster bombs, weapons so dangerous to civilians that more than 100 nations have agreed to ban their use.
"Cluster bombs are indiscriminate killers that most nations have agreed to outlaw. Russia?s use of this weapon is not only deadly to civilians, but also an insult to international efforts to avoid a global humanitarian disaster of the kind caused by landmines.
Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch".
"Cluster bombs are indiscriminate killers that most nations have agreed to outlaw," said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch. "Russia's use of this weapon is not only deadly to civilians, but also an insult to international efforts to avoid a global humanitarian disaster of the kind caused by landmines."
Human Rights Watch said Russian aircraft dropped RBK-250 cluster bombs, each containing 30 PTAB 2.5M submunitions, on the town of Ruisi in the Kareli district of Georgia on August 12, 2008. Three civilians were killed and five wounded in the attack. On the same day, a cluster strike in the center of the town of Gori killed at least eight civilians and injured dozens, Human Rights Watch said. Dutch journalist Stan Storimans was among the dead. Israeli journalist Zadok Yehezkeli was seriously wounded and evacuated to Israel for treatment after surgery in Tbilisi. An armored vehicle from the Reuters news agency was perforated with shrapnel from the attack.
This is the first known use of cluster munitions since 2006, during Israel's war with Hezbollah in Lebanon. Cluster munitions contain dozens or hundreds of smaller submunitions or bomblets. They cause unacceptable humanitarian harm in two ways. First, their broad-area effect kills and injures civilians indiscriminately during strikes. Second, many submunitions do not explode, becoming de facto landmines that cause civilian casualties for months or years to come. In May 2008, 107 nations agreed to a total ban on cluster munitions, but Russia did not participate in the talks.
Human Rights Watch researchers interviewed numerous victims, doctors, and military personnel in Georgia. They examined photos of craters and video footage of the August 12 attack on Gori. Human Rights Watch has also seen a photo of the submunition carrier assembly and nose cone of an RBK-250 bomb in Gori. The Gori video showed more than two dozen simultaneous explosions during the attack, which is characteristic of cluster bombs. Two persons wounded in Gori described multiple simultaneous explosions at the time of the attack. Craters in Gori were also consistent with a cluster strike.
Doctors at the two main hospitals in Tbilisi described numerous injuries to civilians hurt in the attack on Gori they believed were consistent with cluster bombs. Human Rights Watch researchers saw a submunition fragment extracted from one victim's head.
Human Rights Watch interviewed several hospitalized victims of the attack in Gori. Twenty-five-year-old Keti Javakhishvili suffered massive trauma to her liver, stomach, and intestines, as well as hemorrhagic shock. Two other victims sustained fragment wounds to their legs and abdominal regions. All the wounds were consistent with those caused by submunitions from cluster bombs.
Photographic evidence on file with Human Rights Watch shows a civilian in Ruisi holding a PTAB submunition without realizing it could explode at the slightest touch. This incident highlights the dire need to educate immediately the population of Georgia about the dangers of these submunition "duds."
Human Rights Watch called on Russia to provide precise strike data on its cluster attacks in order to facilitate clean up of the inevitable lingering contamination from cluster bomb submunitions that failed to explode on contact but remain deadly.
Human Rights Watch also called on Georgia, which is known to have RBK-500 cluster bombs in its stockpiles, to join the international move to ban the use of cluster munitions and publicly to undertake not to use such weapons in this conflict.
Russia was not part of the Oslo Process launched in February 2007 to develop a new international treaty banning cluster munitions. In May 2008, 107 nations adopted the Convention on Cluster Munitions, which comprehensively bans the use, production, trade and stockpiling of the weapon. It will be open for signature in Oslo on December 3, 2008.
"Russia should never have fired cluster munitions against a town in Georgia and now it should help in the clean-up to avoid any more deaths," Garlasco said.
--------------------------------------------
Georgia: Russian Cluster Bombs Kill Civilians -
Stop Using Weapon Banned by 107 Nations
(Tbilisi, August 15, 2008) - Human Rights Watch researchers have uncovered evidence that Russian aircraft dropped cluster bombs in populated areas in Georgia, killing at least 11 civilians and injuring dozens, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch called upon Russia to immediately stop using cluster bombs, weapons so dangerous to civilians that more than 100 nations have agreed to ban their use.
"Cluster bombs are indiscriminate killers that most nations have agreed to outlaw. Russia?s use of this weapon is not only deadly to civilians, but also an insult to international efforts to avoid a global humanitarian disaster of the kind caused by landmines.
Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch".
"Cluster bombs are indiscriminate killers that most nations have agreed to outlaw," said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch. "Russia's use of this weapon is not only deadly to civilians, but also an insult to international efforts to avoid a global humanitarian disaster of the kind caused by landmines."
Human Rights Watch said Russian aircraft dropped RBK-250 cluster bombs, each containing 30 PTAB 2.5M submunitions, on the town of Ruisi in the Kareli district of Georgia on August 12, 2008. Three civilians were killed and five wounded in the attack. On the same day, a cluster strike in the center of the town of Gori killed at least eight civilians and injured dozens, Human Rights Watch said. Dutch journalist Stan Storimans was among the dead. Israeli journalist Zadok Yehezkeli was seriously wounded and evacuated to Israel for treatment after surgery in Tbilisi. An armored vehicle from the Reuters news agency was perforated with shrapnel from the attack.
This is the first known use of cluster munitions since 2006, during Israel's war with Hezbollah in Lebanon. Cluster munitions contain dozens or hundreds of smaller submunitions or bomblets. They cause unacceptable humanitarian harm in two ways. First, their broad-area effect kills and injures civilians indiscriminately during strikes. Second, many submunitions do not explode, becoming de facto landmines that cause civilian casualties for months or years to come. In May 2008, 107 nations agreed to a total ban on cluster munitions, but Russia did not participate in the talks.
Human Rights Watch researchers interviewed numerous victims, doctors, and military personnel in Georgia. They examined photos of craters and video footage of the August 12 attack on Gori. Human Rights Watch has also seen a photo of the submunition carrier assembly and nose cone of an RBK-250 bomb in Gori. The Gori video showed more than two dozen simultaneous explosions during the attack, which is characteristic of cluster bombs. Two persons wounded in Gori described multiple simultaneous explosions at the time of the attack. Craters in Gori were also consistent with a cluster strike.
Doctors at the two main hospitals in Tbilisi described numerous injuries to civilians hurt in the attack on Gori they believed were consistent with cluster bombs. Human Rights Watch researchers saw a submunition fragment extracted from one victim's head.
Human Rights Watch interviewed several hospitalized victims of the attack in Gori. Twenty-five-year-old Keti Javakhishvili suffered massive trauma to her liver, stomach, and intestines, as well as hemorrhagic shock. Two other victims sustained fragment wounds to their legs and abdominal regions. All the wounds were consistent with those caused by submunitions from cluster bombs.
Photographic evidence on file with Human Rights Watch shows a civilian in Ruisi holding a PTAB submunition without realizing it could explode at the slightest touch. This incident highlights the dire need to educate immediately the population of Georgia about the dangers of these submunition "duds."
Human Rights Watch called on Russia to provide precise strike data on its cluster attacks in order to facilitate clean up of the inevitable lingering contamination from cluster bomb submunitions that failed to explode on contact but remain deadly.
Human Rights Watch also called on Georgia, which is known to have RBK-500 cluster bombs in its stockpiles, to join the international move to ban the use of cluster munitions and publicly to undertake not to use such weapons in this conflict.
Russia was not part of the Oslo Process launched in February 2007 to develop a new international treaty banning cluster munitions. In May 2008, 107 nations adopted the Convention on Cluster Munitions, which comprehensively bans the use, production, trade and stockpiling of the weapon. It will be open for signature in Oslo on December 3, 2008.
"Russia should never have fired cluster munitions against a town in Georgia and now it should help in the clean-up to avoid any more deaths," Garlasco said.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/QUOTENAME]@ The Miracle:
That missile shield consists of missile launch facilities, mostly. Despite the fact that they did more damage to Israel than Iraqi SCUDs, the American army still loves the idea behind the Patriot Missiles.[/QUOTE] TQ the Patriot missle system development program began in the 1960s and the first battery of missiles was deployed in the 1980s, so it is like the grandfather of todays technology. Every major military in the world has deployed or would like to deploy systems that protect their forces and or civilian population from ballistic projectiles whether they be guided missiles, unguided missiles, artillery shells or mortar shells. These links are in order to update your strategic and technological knowledge into the present day http:// www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/index.html Enjoy. http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/arrow/index.html http://www.raytheon.com/businesses/rids/businesses/patriot/
That missile shield consists of missile launch facilities, mostly. Despite the fact that they did more damage to Israel than Iraqi SCUDs, the American army still loves the idea behind the Patriot Missiles.[/QUOTE] TQ the Patriot missle system development program began in the 1960s and the first battery of missiles was deployed in the 1980s, so it is like the grandfather of todays technology. Every major military in the world has deployed or would like to deploy systems that protect their forces and or civilian population from ballistic projectiles whether they be guided missiles, unguided missiles, artillery shells or mortar shells. These links are in order to update your strategic and technological knowledge into the present day http:// www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/index.html Enjoy. http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/arrow/index.html http://www.raytheon.com/businesses/rids/businesses/patriot/
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]The Mir@cle wrote: [/QUOTENAME]It's more that you're saying that we (as being the Western countries) give Russia reasons to stay in Georgia for a few more days. But maybe Russia just doesn't want to leave?
I'm not sure what's the right thing to do in this case. You can be soft to Russia, partly give them what you want and stay friends for a bit more. But don't you give them green light to gain more power then? That's how Hitler got big. Bit by bit he started to gain power... and the rest saw it and just watched him building a super army.
Don't get me wrong. It's not my intention to compare Medvedev with Hitler, but this might be the moment to tell him what he can and what he can't do. Invading another country and kill thousands of people is something that you can't just let happen I think. You see the cold war rhetoric returning at alarming speed?
[/QUOTE]
I wish you could see the double standard. It's the lack of respect and the idea that the West is always in the right and can tell other nations what to do which causes the most casualties in this world.
Just imagine for a moment you were a Russian - would you not feel threatened? Your former most terrible enemy who killed 10 Million Russians (Germany) is in a military alliance with the biggest superpower who does not hesitate to invade any other country and kill hunndreds of thousands of people if they feel threatened in their paranoia (or pretended paranoia). The USSR dissolved and Russia did not deny any of the former states their right to decide for themselves and become independent but now they don't have the right to protect South Ossetia? Who are we (NATO; EU) to tell Russia THEY cannot feel threatened if someone like the USA, who does not honour ANY international treaties, expands their miltary alliance to the doorstep of Russia? Where is our moral authority? Russia has virtually no democratic history but they are improving, they move towards democracy. The USA, on the other hand, has a perfect history of democracy but where are they going? Why can we decide if we are "soft" to Russia or not, are we sent by God to rule this world? Invading another country is something we cannot just let happen? I hope you see the irony of that statement reading about Afghanistan and Iraq each day in the newspapers.
In a earlier post I quoted the Cuban missile crisis - it was a similar situation. No, the USA did NOT let a sovereign state (Cuba)install middle range missiles right on their doorstep - Kennedy was willing to launch a nuclear strike to avoid that.
It's not about "staying friends" with Russia - it's the unbearable arrogance of the West who do not think it's necessary to negotiate
a peaceful coexistence with former ally (USA, France, UK)) or war victim (Germany) Russia because they lost the cold war. In our unlimited arrogance we do not see the danger of that behaviour, it's our peace at stake, too. The battlefield would be Europe, not the USA - let's not forget that.
I agree about the cluster bombs, there is no excuse for using them. Too bad that most countries who signed the convention to ban them, never had any cluster bombs but the biggest "users", Russia and the USA, did not sign.
I'm not sure what's the right thing to do in this case. You can be soft to Russia, partly give them what you want and stay friends for a bit more. But don't you give them green light to gain more power then? That's how Hitler got big. Bit by bit he started to gain power... and the rest saw it and just watched him building a super army.
Don't get me wrong. It's not my intention to compare Medvedev with Hitler, but this might be the moment to tell him what he can and what he can't do. Invading another country and kill thousands of people is something that you can't just let happen I think. You see the cold war rhetoric returning at alarming speed?
[/QUOTE]
I wish you could see the double standard. It's the lack of respect and the idea that the West is always in the right and can tell other nations what to do which causes the most casualties in this world.
Just imagine for a moment you were a Russian - would you not feel threatened? Your former most terrible enemy who killed 10 Million Russians (Germany) is in a military alliance with the biggest superpower who does not hesitate to invade any other country and kill hunndreds of thousands of people if they feel threatened in their paranoia (or pretended paranoia). The USSR dissolved and Russia did not deny any of the former states their right to decide for themselves and become independent but now they don't have the right to protect South Ossetia? Who are we (NATO; EU) to tell Russia THEY cannot feel threatened if someone like the USA, who does not honour ANY international treaties, expands their miltary alliance to the doorstep of Russia? Where is our moral authority? Russia has virtually no democratic history but they are improving, they move towards democracy. The USA, on the other hand, has a perfect history of democracy but where are they going? Why can we decide if we are "soft" to Russia or not, are we sent by God to rule this world? Invading another country is something we cannot just let happen? I hope you see the irony of that statement reading about Afghanistan and Iraq each day in the newspapers.
In a earlier post I quoted the Cuban missile crisis - it was a similar situation. No, the USA did NOT let a sovereign state (Cuba)install middle range missiles right on their doorstep - Kennedy was willing to launch a nuclear strike to avoid that.
It's not about "staying friends" with Russia - it's the unbearable arrogance of the West who do not think it's necessary to negotiate
a peaceful coexistence with former ally (USA, France, UK)) or war victim (Germany) Russia because they lost the cold war. In our unlimited arrogance we do not see the danger of that behaviour, it's our peace at stake, too. The battlefield would be Europe, not the USA - let's not forget that.
I agree about the cluster bombs, there is no excuse for using them. Too bad that most countries who signed the convention to ban them, never had any cluster bombs but the biggest "users", Russia and the USA, did not sign.
I've never been a supporter of the Invasion in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I'm not talking out of my pro American background as there isn't one. I'm just seeing what happens in Georgia and giving my honest opinion about that case.
I can't believe that the Russians feels threatened by Germany, really. We're now 60 years after the end of WWII and Merkel doesn't really give me the creeps. And believe me, the US isn't really eager to attack Russia either. Like they realise know what kind of mess it will be then.
We can keep digging in the history to find reasons why we're not 'allowed' to say anything about what Russia is doing at the momnent, but shouldn't we just see things in the context of today? In that context I see Russia exploring the border of what they can and what the can't. And we shouldn't give them too much space I think. Otherwise you give them a finger, and they take a whole hand.
I can't believe that the Russians feels threatened by Germany, really. We're now 60 years after the end of WWII and Merkel doesn't really give me the creeps. And believe me, the US isn't really eager to attack Russia either. Like they realise know what kind of mess it will be then.
We can keep digging in the history to find reasons why we're not 'allowed' to say anything about what Russia is doing at the momnent, but shouldn't we just see things in the context of today? In that context I see Russia exploring the border of what they can and what the can't. And we shouldn't give them too much space I think. Otherwise you give them a finger, and they take a whole hand.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]The Mir@cle wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
And we shouldn't give them too much space I think. Otherwise you give them a finger, and they take a whole hand.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly the arrogance that drives me up the wall. You did not even take a second to think about what I wrote in my previous posts. It's not YOU who decides how Russia copes with the WW2 trauma, you don't have the slightest idea what the country went through and it's not YOU who decides if they have a right to feel threatened if the NATO moves into their hostile neighbour country.
And we shouldn't give them too much space I think. Otherwise you give them a finger, and they take a whole hand.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly the arrogance that drives me up the wall. You did not even take a second to think about what I wrote in my previous posts. It's not YOU who decides how Russia copes with the WW2 trauma, you don't have the slightest idea what the country went through and it's not YOU who decides if they have a right to feel threatened if the NATO moves into their hostile neighbour country.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]The Mir@cle wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
And we shouldn't give them too much space I think. Otherwise you give them a finger, and they take a whole hand.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly the arrogance that drives me up the wall. You did not even take a second to think about what I wrote in my previous posts. It's not YOU who decides how Russia copes with the WW2 trauma, you don't have the slightest idea what the country went through and it's not YOU who decides if they have a right to feel threatened if the NATO moves into their hostile neighbour country. [/QUOTE]
And YOU didn't think about what I wrote in my previous posts... call me arrogant, ignorant whatever. Still I think that a WW2 trauma can't be the reason to let Russia invade as many countries as they want. Thank God it's not YOU that is in charge of the NATO. ;-)
And we shouldn't give them too much space I think. Otherwise you give them a finger, and they take a whole hand.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly the arrogance that drives me up the wall. You did not even take a second to think about what I wrote in my previous posts. It's not YOU who decides how Russia copes with the WW2 trauma, you don't have the slightest idea what the country went through and it's not YOU who decides if they have a right to feel threatened if the NATO moves into their hostile neighbour country. [/QUOTE]
And YOU didn't think about what I wrote in my previous posts... call me arrogant, ignorant whatever. Still I think that a WW2 trauma can't be the reason to let Russia invade as many countries as they want. Thank God it's not YOU that is in charge of the NATO. ;-)
Yes, thank God.. whoever that may be. But since we get so personal, I want to ask you a question and please give me an honest answer or none at all:
Would you, Martijn, volunteer in the NATO forces as a combat soldier to fight in Georgia against the Russians if the conflict should become "hot" ?
Would you, Martijn, volunteer in the NATO forces as a combat soldier to fight in Georgia against the Russians if the conflict should become "hot" ?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Yes, thank God.. whoever that may be. But since we get so personal, I want to ask you a question and please give me an honest answer or none at all:
Would you, Martijn, volunteer in the NATO forces as a combat soldier to fight in Georgia against the Russians if the conflict should become "hot" ?[/QUOTE]
As I said before, I'm not waiting for military actions at all. I've never been a supporter of the invasion in Iraq and Afghanistan; neither will I be supporting a fight against Russia wherever that fight may be. So the answer is no.
But that's not the part we argue about, is it? I thought we agreed about one thing... that we both aren't waiting for a new cold war. We're just disagreeing about the way to avoid having one.
Would you, Martijn, volunteer in the NATO forces as a combat soldier to fight in Georgia against the Russians if the conflict should become "hot" ?[/QUOTE]
As I said before, I'm not waiting for military actions at all. I've never been a supporter of the invasion in Iraq and Afghanistan; neither will I be supporting a fight against Russia wherever that fight may be. So the answer is no.
But that's not the part we argue about, is it? I thought we agreed about one thing... that we both aren't waiting for a new cold war. We're just disagreeing about the way to avoid having one.
Absolutely. Although I think avoiding a cold war is not achieved with "power language", you know. How exactly are you "not giving Russia too much space" if not by threats and violence?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Absolutely. Although I think avoiding a cold war is not achieved with "power language", you know. How exactly are you "not giving Russia too much space" if not by threats and violence?[/QUOTE]
There's "power language" and "POWER LANGUAGE". You said that Russia that Russia won't attack an EU country. I think you're right. But I don't see Russia to be attacked either. There won't be a counter attack as far as I can see. But that the NATO gives a sign that Russia is risking their close contacts with them, sounds like a good signal to me. You can see it as a threat... I see it more as a signal.
About the missile launch facilities in Poland. We can discuss about that. I agree that this might be a slightly dangerous reaction of the US, but he... what do you expect from the US. Though I expect that this won't cause huge problems in the near future.
Russia is just showing their "muscular arms" as much as the rest does. Russia promises a lot but doesn't make things work in the end. They're bluffing.... that's why it's time to stay strong.
There's "power language" and "POWER LANGUAGE". You said that Russia that Russia won't attack an EU country. I think you're right. But I don't see Russia to be attacked either. There won't be a counter attack as far as I can see. But that the NATO gives a sign that Russia is risking their close contacts with them, sounds like a good signal to me. You can see it as a threat... I see it more as a signal.
About the missile launch facilities in Poland. We can discuss about that. I agree that this might be a slightly dangerous reaction of the US, but he... what do you expect from the US. Though I expect that this won't cause huge problems in the near future.
Russia is just showing their "muscular arms" as much as the rest does. Russia promises a lot but doesn't make things work in the end. They're bluffing.... that's why it's time to stay strong.
Interesting article in Pravda, by Lisa Karpova. The emphasises are in the original.
"World Opinion Favors Russia - Winning the Media War
Even Americans are saying, "Thank you Russia for standing up to the crackpots in control of our government." As much as the corporate elitist media in the west blathers and carries on with lies and obfuscation about the events in Georgia and South Ossetia, as much as they try to cover up the facts and the truth and the war crimes committed by their puppet state, Georgia, they have failed to convince the world community.
Their all too numerous outlets are pummeling the world community with distortions, trying to shove the castor oil of the empire down our collective throats, but the gag reflex is well intact and their lies remain unpalatable. The empire is used to and expects everyone to jump when told to and to believe what they hear and read. They don't expect and can't understand when someone or some country tells them to back off with their egotistical, haughty, self important orders or pronouncements. But their "orders" and pronouncements have become irrelevant. We are again living in a multicolor world.
In a recent Internet tally asking respondents who they favor, 75.8% were in favor of Russia and only 24.2% in favor of Georgia. Some American respondents actually came right out and thanked Russia for standing up to their government, referring to their government as "crackpots" and "lunatics."
One respondent said that South Ossetia and Abkhazia should become independent and the west lives under double standards. Another wrote, "the Abkhaz, Ossetian and Adjarian people will never agree to live under Georgian arrogant oppression."
Yet another respondent said, "This is NATO's prime moment to show that it as an organization is not yet obsolete." Of course we heard this when Yugoslavia was bombed too. In another comment he said, "I literally laughed out loud when President Bush made his speech toward Russia about how "bullying is unacceptable in foreign policy in the 21st century."
A respondent who considers himself a Republican wrote, "There is no reason that we should be antagonizing them on their border. It scares me that this oilman president will take us into another war with a much more deadly foe over an oil pipeline through Georgia. I am a registered Republican, but enough is enough. Impeach George Bush, if he gets us involved in the Russo-Georgian war."
Some notable and succinct quotes from another:
"I feel like I am living in the bizarro world. Do you people not realize that Georgia started the conflict. Do you people not realize that Georgia attacked civilians and peacekeeping troops in an INTERNATIONAL ZONE. Do you not realize that the news media has been caught showing footage of the destroyed cities in Ossetia (destroyed by Georgians) and claims it is Gori and Russian aftermath. Do you not realize that the Caucasus Region is an oil pipeline area. Do you not realize that the US armed and trained the Georgians."
"Georgia's president is the new Hitler. He is invading areas and his lies are so incredibly manipulative. The American Media is really showing stupidity here in hopes for new cold war ratings. Neo-cons and globalists are thrilled because now Russia has taken its eye off of the Iran situation."
Another poll taken in Greece yielded the following results:
Who is responsible for the war:
1. Georgia who started the attack and the US who encouraged them
(77.86%, or 3559 votes)
2. The Russians
(3.22 %, 147 votes)
3. All of them
(15.99 % , 731 votes)
4. I don't know
(2.93 %, 134 votes)
South Ossetia and Abkhazia broke away from Georgia in the 1990s when Georgia itself broke away from the Soviet Union. Saaskashvili was determined not only to reincorporate them into Georgia again, entirely against the will of their inhabitants, but to punish them for wanting to be independent. There are no military installations or targets in the city of Tskhinvali, none whatsoever. It is an industrial center, with quiet civilian residential areas. It was the home to 30,000 South Ossetians.
When Saakashvili ordered the city to be bombed by warplanes and shelled by heavy artillery, he knew that he would be killing hundreds of civilians in their homes and neighborhoods. But he was determined to have what he wanted and ordered the bombing anyway. What took place in South Ossetia was not merely an invasion or a siege, it was a bloody massacre, a genocide. The people had no way to defend themselves against a fully equipped modern army. It was a war crime and the world community is fully aware of that fact despite the best efforts of the western corporate media to conveniently omit reporting on the crime.
By the time the Georgians along with their American and Israeli enablers were driven out, the city?s downtown area was in engulfed in flames and strewn along streets and sidewalks were the bodies of those who had been killed by sniper fire. Those who did not flee and stayed behind were simply too old, handicapped or infirm to leave. They had to seek shelter in basements waiting for the shelling to stop. It was a bloodbath. The city's only hospital was deliberately targeted and destroyed, another war crime. Over 2,000 people were killed in an operation that was clearly engineered with the full knowledge, planning and assistance of the Bush White House.
An independence referendum was held in 2006: 99% of South Ossetians said they wanted independence from Georgia. The voter turnout was 95% and the balloting was monitored by 34 international observers from the west. No one has challenged the results. The province has been under the protection of Russian and Georgian peacekeepers since 1992, and has been a de facto independent state ever since.
If Russia applied the same standard as Bush did in Kosovo, he would unilaterally declare South Ossetia independent from Georgia and then thumb his nose at the empire and anyone else objecting.
The representative of Russia to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, was quite blunt in announcing some home truths. "If we all respect the territorial integrity of Serbia in regards to its Kosovo province, then we are also going to honor the territorial integrity of Georgia. But if someone doesn't respect Serbia's territorial integrity and sovereignty over Kosovo and Metohija, then they better shut up about the territorial integrity of Georgia", Rogozin said.
Meanwhile it is absurd to listen to Bush, Rice and Gates jump up and down about borders, territorial integrity and sovereignty when they have shown no respect for any international laws, treaties or agreements they have made. Borders and sovereignty are only concepts they talk about when convenient for their interests. Hypocritically they speak of "bullying" and of the 21st Century as one where nations don't go around invading other nations while they themselves have done so seemingly with impunity and certainly with the complete disapproval of the world community.
"World Opinion Favors Russia - Winning the Media War
Even Americans are saying, "Thank you Russia for standing up to the crackpots in control of our government." As much as the corporate elitist media in the west blathers and carries on with lies and obfuscation about the events in Georgia and South Ossetia, as much as they try to cover up the facts and the truth and the war crimes committed by their puppet state, Georgia, they have failed to convince the world community.
Their all too numerous outlets are pummeling the world community with distortions, trying to shove the castor oil of the empire down our collective throats, but the gag reflex is well intact and their lies remain unpalatable. The empire is used to and expects everyone to jump when told to and to believe what they hear and read. They don't expect and can't understand when someone or some country tells them to back off with their egotistical, haughty, self important orders or pronouncements. But their "orders" and pronouncements have become irrelevant. We are again living in a multicolor world.
In a recent Internet tally asking respondents who they favor, 75.8% were in favor of Russia and only 24.2% in favor of Georgia. Some American respondents actually came right out and thanked Russia for standing up to their government, referring to their government as "crackpots" and "lunatics."
One respondent said that South Ossetia and Abkhazia should become independent and the west lives under double standards. Another wrote, "the Abkhaz, Ossetian and Adjarian people will never agree to live under Georgian arrogant oppression."
Yet another respondent said, "This is NATO's prime moment to show that it as an organization is not yet obsolete." Of course we heard this when Yugoslavia was bombed too. In another comment he said, "I literally laughed out loud when President Bush made his speech toward Russia about how "bullying is unacceptable in foreign policy in the 21st century."
A respondent who considers himself a Republican wrote, "There is no reason that we should be antagonizing them on their border. It scares me that this oilman president will take us into another war with a much more deadly foe over an oil pipeline through Georgia. I am a registered Republican, but enough is enough. Impeach George Bush, if he gets us involved in the Russo-Georgian war."
Some notable and succinct quotes from another:
"I feel like I am living in the bizarro world. Do you people not realize that Georgia started the conflict. Do you people not realize that Georgia attacked civilians and peacekeeping troops in an INTERNATIONAL ZONE. Do you not realize that the news media has been caught showing footage of the destroyed cities in Ossetia (destroyed by Georgians) and claims it is Gori and Russian aftermath. Do you not realize that the Caucasus Region is an oil pipeline area. Do you not realize that the US armed and trained the Georgians."
"Georgia's president is the new Hitler. He is invading areas and his lies are so incredibly manipulative. The American Media is really showing stupidity here in hopes for new cold war ratings. Neo-cons and globalists are thrilled because now Russia has taken its eye off of the Iran situation."
Another poll taken in Greece yielded the following results:
Who is responsible for the war:
1. Georgia who started the attack and the US who encouraged them
(77.86%, or 3559 votes)
2. The Russians
(3.22 %, 147 votes)
3. All of them
(15.99 % , 731 votes)
4. I don't know
(2.93 %, 134 votes)
South Ossetia and Abkhazia broke away from Georgia in the 1990s when Georgia itself broke away from the Soviet Union. Saaskashvili was determined not only to reincorporate them into Georgia again, entirely against the will of their inhabitants, but to punish them for wanting to be independent. There are no military installations or targets in the city of Tskhinvali, none whatsoever. It is an industrial center, with quiet civilian residential areas. It was the home to 30,000 South Ossetians.
When Saakashvili ordered the city to be bombed by warplanes and shelled by heavy artillery, he knew that he would be killing hundreds of civilians in their homes and neighborhoods. But he was determined to have what he wanted and ordered the bombing anyway. What took place in South Ossetia was not merely an invasion or a siege, it was a bloody massacre, a genocide. The people had no way to defend themselves against a fully equipped modern army. It was a war crime and the world community is fully aware of that fact despite the best efforts of the western corporate media to conveniently omit reporting on the crime.
By the time the Georgians along with their American and Israeli enablers were driven out, the city?s downtown area was in engulfed in flames and strewn along streets and sidewalks were the bodies of those who had been killed by sniper fire. Those who did not flee and stayed behind were simply too old, handicapped or infirm to leave. They had to seek shelter in basements waiting for the shelling to stop. It was a bloodbath. The city's only hospital was deliberately targeted and destroyed, another war crime. Over 2,000 people were killed in an operation that was clearly engineered with the full knowledge, planning and assistance of the Bush White House.
An independence referendum was held in 2006: 99% of South Ossetians said they wanted independence from Georgia. The voter turnout was 95% and the balloting was monitored by 34 international observers from the west. No one has challenged the results. The province has been under the protection of Russian and Georgian peacekeepers since 1992, and has been a de facto independent state ever since.
If Russia applied the same standard as Bush did in Kosovo, he would unilaterally declare South Ossetia independent from Georgia and then thumb his nose at the empire and anyone else objecting.
The representative of Russia to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, was quite blunt in announcing some home truths. "If we all respect the territorial integrity of Serbia in regards to its Kosovo province, then we are also going to honor the territorial integrity of Georgia. But if someone doesn't respect Serbia's territorial integrity and sovereignty over Kosovo and Metohija, then they better shut up about the territorial integrity of Georgia", Rogozin said.
Meanwhile it is absurd to listen to Bush, Rice and Gates jump up and down about borders, territorial integrity and sovereignty when they have shown no respect for any international laws, treaties or agreements they have made. Borders and sovereignty are only concepts they talk about when convenient for their interests. Hypocritically they speak of "bullying" and of the 21st Century as one where nations don't go around invading other nations while they themselves have done so seemingly with impunity and certainly with the complete disapproval of the world community.
Yara -
Interesting, informative article.
Can you provide a link?
Interesting, informative article.
Can you provide a link?