I totally agree about the drafting aspect. However, in Europe people were not outraged by the death of drafted US soldiers, they were outraged about the mass murder of the Vietnamese population. They were outraged about agent orange poisoning people only to give the American army a better "battle view", they were outraged about napalm bombs when they watched children burning like torches on TV.. All these atrocities were well documented by independent reporters who put their own lives at stakes to deliver the truth *even if it was not in the interest of theiri own government* Since the gulf war 1990 the war pictures are censored. TV teams are "embedded" (i.e. under Army control and censored). The TV is sheepishy repeating the government propaganda and it's much harder for Joe Public to get an educated idea about what is going on. Even the Ramsey Clark report on war crimes in the Bush 1 gulf war is widely unknown inside and outside the USA although it has been published as a book and on the internet. I think people are not outraged because they do not know the extent of the crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I have seen on TV how US troops enter civilian homes in Iraq by kicking in the door in the middle of the night but an ex- US officer told me in person that they only do this when they are filmed. When no camera is around they blow up the door with dynamite because it's "safer". As a result many innocent men, women and children are killed or badly wounded in their own homes to provide for this "safety". The soldiers don't do this by themselves, they are ordered to do it.
I really do not believe that any generation is less caring or concerned than the previous but it is so much harder for young people today to look through all the garbage they are fed by the media and the government. However, I can see how millions of people do not care about severe violations of human rights, about torture and injustice. It's exactly what happened in my own country in the 1930s. One by one our "leaders" take away civil rights and violate national and international law under the pretense that terrorism is so dangerous. I don't know how to change it, there must be some sort of wake up call..
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I think there's a couple of things in play with regards to the indifference.
In today's world, you can simply open a window and see what's going on in a certain part of the world. The internet, love it or hate it, has put it there right in front of us. A six year old could navigate thru it. With that ability, came two things. (1) The ability to slant the simple-minded towards a certain point of view and over time grow that culture, and (2) The ability to click on the hot girls popup and forget about the trouble in the world.
Thus, a far less intellegent community begins to decipher the news and base decisions on what they've learned on the internet. They haven't lived thru any of these experiences, they simply went to [url=http://www.whatever]www.whatever[/url] and heard that's the right thing to do.
Then you end up with ideas such as 'America is just invading countries because they want to impose their will'. This thought process is usually strong in countries that have endured years of poor foreign policy or lack of stable government. But then you look at their youth and they all want to live like Americans and have malls and rock music. And protest things.
In today's world, you can simply open a window and see what's going on in a certain part of the world. The internet, love it or hate it, has put it there right in front of us. A six year old could navigate thru it. With that ability, came two things. (1) The ability to slant the simple-minded towards a certain point of view and over time grow that culture, and (2) The ability to click on the hot girls popup and forget about the trouble in the world.
Thus, a far less intellegent community begins to decipher the news and base decisions on what they've learned on the internet. They haven't lived thru any of these experiences, they simply went to [url=http://www.whatever]www.whatever[/url] and heard that's the right thing to do.
Then you end up with ideas such as 'America is just invading countries because they want to impose their will'. This thought process is usually strong in countries that have endured years of poor foreign policy or lack of stable government. But then you look at their youth and they all want to live like Americans and have malls and rock music. And protest things.
America is SO imperialistic. FACT!
[QUOTE]
[b]Saif wrote: [/b]
America is SO imperialistic. FACT!
[/QUOTE]
Your country, India, has just sent some men to the moon, probably to colonise it and steal the moon men's oil. What are you going to do when the Clangers rebel and destroy Chandrayaan 1 with an improvised explosive device? Call Captain Kirk for help I bet.
Oh hang on, that's silly.
Kirk is dead. I meant Captain Sisko of the USS Defiant.
Here's a documentary about the Clangers made by David Attenborough and Steven Hawkins. And Brian May.
[url=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HArUmqqiL0s]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HArUmqqiL0s[/url]
[b]Saif wrote: [/b]
America is SO imperialistic. FACT!
[/QUOTE]
Your country, India, has just sent some men to the moon, probably to colonise it and steal the moon men's oil. What are you going to do when the Clangers rebel and destroy Chandrayaan 1 with an improvised explosive device? Call Captain Kirk for help I bet.
Oh hang on, that's silly.
Kirk is dead. I meant Captain Sisko of the USS Defiant.
Here's a documentary about the Clangers made by David Attenborough and Steven Hawkins. And Brian May.
[url=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HArUmqqiL0s]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HArUmqqiL0s[/url]
@ Magical,
of course no offense was taken!! I was merely pointing out things that I've heard from MANY people of the older generation; complaining that my generation is stupid and lazy and doesn't give a damn. Believe me, there are people in my generation who are like that, but they aren't limited to my generation only. As you said, it spans generations. It's just an argument that I've heard and I am sick of hearing, so when I can I try to put forward different POVS. I know you don't believe that my entire generation is indifferent :-)
@Your Valentine
you are speaking of generations in Europe and their reaction, so of course I cannot take a stand on that since I have no idea. I can only speak for my generation here. But you (and Microwave, coincidentally) do raise a good point. Information now adays is funneled and manipulated. It's still illegal here to take pictures or video of the returning bodies of soldiers coming back from there, because they were being used to fuel protests against Iraq. But, for what it's worth, I think it's more a result of information overload.
We live in a 24 hour news cycle. There is information bombarded at us faster than we can blink, especially with the internet. The human brain simply cannot cope with that kind of bombardment and have it make any kind of sense. So humans natrually try to limit what they are seeing to one place: one news network, one source, etc. That news network (like Fox for example) knows the power they have in this situation, and color things to suite them. CNN and the rest of them are just as bad, but Fox is the most blatently biased example; a 3 year old could tell. This process of limiting your information sources out of neccessity also leads to the laziness which we can see now. It's a self-sustaining cycle.
of course no offense was taken!! I was merely pointing out things that I've heard from MANY people of the older generation; complaining that my generation is stupid and lazy and doesn't give a damn. Believe me, there are people in my generation who are like that, but they aren't limited to my generation only. As you said, it spans generations. It's just an argument that I've heard and I am sick of hearing, so when I can I try to put forward different POVS. I know you don't believe that my entire generation is indifferent :-)
@Your Valentine
you are speaking of generations in Europe and their reaction, so of course I cannot take a stand on that since I have no idea. I can only speak for my generation here. But you (and Microwave, coincidentally) do raise a good point. Information now adays is funneled and manipulated. It's still illegal here to take pictures or video of the returning bodies of soldiers coming back from there, because they were being used to fuel protests against Iraq. But, for what it's worth, I think it's more a result of information overload.
We live in a 24 hour news cycle. There is information bombarded at us faster than we can blink, especially with the internet. The human brain simply cannot cope with that kind of bombardment and have it make any kind of sense. So humans natrually try to limit what they are seeing to one place: one news network, one source, etc. That news network (like Fox for example) knows the power they have in this situation, and color things to suite them. CNN and the rest of them are just as bad, but Fox is the most blatently biased example; a 3 year old could tell. This process of limiting your information sources out of neccessity also leads to the laziness which we can see now. It's a self-sustaining cycle.
[QUOTE]
[b]Saif wrote: [/b]
America is SO imperialistic. FACT!
[/QUOTE]
Gandhi was really a war monger. FACT!
[b]Saif wrote: [/b]
America is SO imperialistic. FACT!
[/QUOTE]
Gandhi was really a war monger. FACT!
for all the seriousness of this topic [and there is some good points here] i must point out to Holly that i bow down in your presence for introducing the young-uns here to the wonder of my childhood that were 'the Clangers'.just need to get them watching Bagpuss now ;-]
*deep bow towards Holly*
right,carry on with the serious convo,im going back to The Clangers on youtube now
*does the voice of the Soup Dragon and disappears*
*deep bow towards Holly*
right,carry on with the serious convo,im going back to The Clangers on youtube now
*does the voice of the Soup Dragon and disappears*
They make good drugs in Afghanistan. That's partially why the USA wants to conquer them.
The other reason would be that George W. Bush is a bloodthirsty tyrant-vampire with an acquired taste for infant blood and genitalia. The Dark Lord constantly needs new ones to feed upon.
The other reason would be that George W. Bush is a bloodthirsty tyrant-vampire with an acquired taste for infant blood and genitalia. The Dark Lord constantly needs new ones to feed upon.
[QUOTE]
[b]JoxerTheDeityPirate wrote: [/b]
for all the seriousness of this topic [and there is some good points here] i must point out to Holly that i bow down in your presence for introducing the young-uns here to the wonder of my childhood that were 'the Clangers'.just need to get them watching Bagpuss now ;-]
*deep bow towards Holly*
right,carry on with the serious convo,im going back to The Clangers on youtube now
*does the voice of the Soup Dragon and disappears*[/QUOTE]
I just clicked on the link....you guys over there in the UK have seriously cute TV shows for kids!! All we have over here is Barney and shit. They look like little ant eaters with mouse ears! :-D
[b]JoxerTheDeityPirate wrote: [/b]
for all the seriousness of this topic [and there is some good points here] i must point out to Holly that i bow down in your presence for introducing the young-uns here to the wonder of my childhood that were 'the Clangers'.just need to get them watching Bagpuss now ;-]
*deep bow towards Holly*
right,carry on with the serious convo,im going back to The Clangers on youtube now
*does the voice of the Soup Dragon and disappears*[/QUOTE]
I just clicked on the link....you guys over there in the UK have seriously cute TV shows for kids!! All we have over here is Barney and shit. They look like little ant eaters with mouse ears! :-D
[QUOTE]
[b]MasterHistoryGirl wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]JoxerTheDeityPirate wrote: [/b]
for all the seriousness of this topic [and there is some good points here] i must point out to Holly that i bow down in your presence for introducing the young-uns here to the wonder of my childhood that were 'the Clangers'.just need to get them watching Bagpuss now ;-]
*deep bow towards Holly*
right,carry on with the serious convo,im going back to The Clangers on youtube now
*does the voice of the Soup Dragon and disappears*
[/QUOTE]
I just clicked on the link....you guys over there in the UK have seriously cute TV shows for kids!! All we have over here is Barney and shit. They look like little ant eaters with mouse ears! :-D
[/QUOTE]
you think i ended up being this daft on my own accord? us old farts born in the late 60's early 70's had a lot of help being corrupted by BBC childrens tv.i can never get bored with The Clangers *does the clangers whistle voice*
[b]MasterHistoryGirl wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]JoxerTheDeityPirate wrote: [/b]
for all the seriousness of this topic [and there is some good points here] i must point out to Holly that i bow down in your presence for introducing the young-uns here to the wonder of my childhood that were 'the Clangers'.just need to get them watching Bagpuss now ;-]
*deep bow towards Holly*
right,carry on with the serious convo,im going back to The Clangers on youtube now
*does the voice of the Soup Dragon and disappears*
[/QUOTE]
I just clicked on the link....you guys over there in the UK have seriously cute TV shows for kids!! All we have over here is Barney and shit. They look like little ant eaters with mouse ears! :-D
[/QUOTE]
you think i ended up being this daft on my own accord? us old farts born in the late 60's early 70's had a lot of help being corrupted by BBC childrens tv.i can never get bored with The Clangers *does the clangers whistle voice*
[QUOTE]
[b]Holly2003 wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Saif wrote: [/b]
America is SO imperialistic. FACT!
[/QUOTE]
Your country, India, has just sent some men to the moon, probably to colonise it and steal the moon men's oil. What are you going to do when the Clangers rebel and destroy Chandrayaan 1 with an improvised explosive device? Call Captain Kirk for help I bet.
Oh hang on, that's silly.
Kirk is dead. I meant Captain Sisko of the USS Defiant.
Here's a documentary about the Clangers made by David Attenborough and Steven Hawkins. And Brian May.
[url=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HArUmqqiL0s]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HArUmqqiL0s[/url]
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
[b]Micrówave wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Saif wrote: [/b]
America is SO imperialistic. FACT!
[/QUOTE]
Gandhi was really a war monger. FACT![/QUOTE]
Come on, guys! I was obviously being sarcastic. Didn't you see the "FACT!" at the end? Jeez...
[b]Holly2003 wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Saif wrote: [/b]
America is SO imperialistic. FACT!
[/QUOTE]
Your country, India, has just sent some men to the moon, probably to colonise it and steal the moon men's oil. What are you going to do when the Clangers rebel and destroy Chandrayaan 1 with an improvised explosive device? Call Captain Kirk for help I bet.
Oh hang on, that's silly.
Kirk is dead. I meant Captain Sisko of the USS Defiant.
Here's a documentary about the Clangers made by David Attenborough and Steven Hawkins. And Brian May.
[url=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HArUmqqiL0s]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HArUmqqiL0s[/url]
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
[b]Micrówave wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Saif wrote: [/b]
America is SO imperialistic. FACT!
[/QUOTE]
Gandhi was really a war monger. FACT![/QUOTE]
Come on, guys! I was obviously being sarcastic. Didn't you see the "FACT!" at the end? Jeez...
You can NEVER be too careful around Americans, Saif. FACT!
[QUOTE]
[b]MasterHistoryGirl
[/b]
Information now adays is funneled and manipulated. It's still illegal here to take pictures or video of the returning bodies of soldiers coming back from there, because they were being used to fuel protests against Iraq.
[/QUOTE]
yes, but does that not bother you? How can they forbid to publish photos? The freedom of speech is guaranteed by the constitution. How is its possible that a so called democratic government violates national and international law in the worst way and the people do not care? We have similar phenomena but at least the government obeys the supreme court who declared dozens of laws unconstitunuonal in the last 3 years, for example about data protection and violation of the privacy of citizen homes. I don't get it.
I saw a photo from a war demonstration in Washington and a woman carried a poster saying: "Can't someone please give him a blow job, so we can impeach him". I think that says it all. Even the Congress does not seem to be bothered.
[b]MasterHistoryGirl
[/b]
Information now adays is funneled and manipulated. It's still illegal here to take pictures or video of the returning bodies of soldiers coming back from there, because they were being used to fuel protests against Iraq.
[/QUOTE]
yes, but does that not bother you? How can they forbid to publish photos? The freedom of speech is guaranteed by the constitution. How is its possible that a so called democratic government violates national and international law in the worst way and the people do not care? We have similar phenomena but at least the government obeys the supreme court who declared dozens of laws unconstitunuonal in the last 3 years, for example about data protection and violation of the privacy of citizen homes. I don't get it.
I saw a photo from a war demonstration in Washington and a woman carried a poster saying: "Can't someone please give him a blow job, so we can impeach him". I think that says it all. Even the Congress does not seem to be bothered.
[QUOTE]
[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]MasterHistoryGirl
[/b]
Information now adays is funneled and manipulated. It's still illegal here to take pictures or video of the returning bodies of soldiers coming back from there, because they were being used to fuel protests against Iraq.
[/QUOTE]
yes, but does that not bother you? How can they forbid to publish photos? The freedom of speech is guaranteed by the constitution. How is its possible that a so called democratic government violates national and international law in the worst way and the people do not care? We have similar phenomena but at least the government obeys the supreme court who declared dozens of laws unconstitunuonal in the last 3 years, for example about data protection and violation of the privacy of citizen homes. I don't get it.
I saw a photo from a war demonstration in Washington and a woman carried a poster saying: "Can't someone please give him a blow job, so we can impeach him". I think that says it all. Even the Congress does not seem to be bothered.
[/QUOTE]
Of course it bothers me; but I also know that I can't do a thing about it to change it. The only way it's going to get changed is if the next President has the power to be able to revoke some of the more right-trampling parts of the Patriot Act. Freedom of Speech in the US has never meant the freedom to say anything you want. The "yelling 'FIRE' in a crowded theater" example comes to mind, but even farther back than that there are examples. If speech were truly free, there would be no laws against treason or slander or libel. You are free to say whatever you want, but saying certain things can get you into trouble. It is the same way in your country; if someone threatens to kill someone they can be brought up on charges. Therefore, there is no true freedom of speech, in any country.
As far as the Congress goes; I'll agree to a certain extent that they can't seem to be bothered. But it's a complex problem. They do not have the majority needed to impeach him. Trust me, the Democrats have been wanting that for years, but they simply don't have the clout. The Republican minority is too large and can block any impeachment process. You only need a simple majority in the House to pass Articles of Impeachment, and while there is a simple majority of Democrats in the house right now not all of them would sign on to impeachment legislation (for various reasons). Even if they could get the articles passed, it takes a 2/3 majority in the Senate to convict, and there is no where near this number of Democrats in the Senate. Maybe after the next cycle of elections they'll have the majority where they could do it, but it will be too late by then; Bush will be out. Besides, even if they could start impeachment proceedings tomorrow, why bother? He's gone in 3 months; it would take that long just to run the investigation to produce the evidence needed for the trial. And with the fiscal meltdown, they are a bit busy anyway trying to make sure the economy doesn't go belly up on all of us.
*edit* And if they could impeach Bush, that would leave us with Cheney as the President. And NO ONE wants that. That's probably the biggest reason no one has impeached him; he's better than the alternative!
[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]MasterHistoryGirl
[/b]
Information now adays is funneled and manipulated. It's still illegal here to take pictures or video of the returning bodies of soldiers coming back from there, because they were being used to fuel protests against Iraq.
[/QUOTE]
yes, but does that not bother you? How can they forbid to publish photos? The freedom of speech is guaranteed by the constitution. How is its possible that a so called democratic government violates national and international law in the worst way and the people do not care? We have similar phenomena but at least the government obeys the supreme court who declared dozens of laws unconstitunuonal in the last 3 years, for example about data protection and violation of the privacy of citizen homes. I don't get it.
I saw a photo from a war demonstration in Washington and a woman carried a poster saying: "Can't someone please give him a blow job, so we can impeach him". I think that says it all. Even the Congress does not seem to be bothered.
[/QUOTE]
Of course it bothers me; but I also know that I can't do a thing about it to change it. The only way it's going to get changed is if the next President has the power to be able to revoke some of the more right-trampling parts of the Patriot Act. Freedom of Speech in the US has never meant the freedom to say anything you want. The "yelling 'FIRE' in a crowded theater" example comes to mind, but even farther back than that there are examples. If speech were truly free, there would be no laws against treason or slander or libel. You are free to say whatever you want, but saying certain things can get you into trouble. It is the same way in your country; if someone threatens to kill someone they can be brought up on charges. Therefore, there is no true freedom of speech, in any country.
As far as the Congress goes; I'll agree to a certain extent that they can't seem to be bothered. But it's a complex problem. They do not have the majority needed to impeach him. Trust me, the Democrats have been wanting that for years, but they simply don't have the clout. The Republican minority is too large and can block any impeachment process. You only need a simple majority in the House to pass Articles of Impeachment, and while there is a simple majority of Democrats in the house right now not all of them would sign on to impeachment legislation (for various reasons). Even if they could get the articles passed, it takes a 2/3 majority in the Senate to convict, and there is no where near this number of Democrats in the Senate. Maybe after the next cycle of elections they'll have the majority where they could do it, but it will be too late by then; Bush will be out. Besides, even if they could start impeachment proceedings tomorrow, why bother? He's gone in 3 months; it would take that long just to run the investigation to produce the evidence needed for the trial. And with the fiscal meltdown, they are a bit busy anyway trying to make sure the economy doesn't go belly up on all of us.
*edit* And if they could impeach Bush, that would leave us with Cheney as the President. And NO ONE wants that. That's probably the biggest reason no one has impeached him; he's better than the alternative!
Man, I wish I knew a lot about the war so I could talk with you guys! It all sounds very interesting! Some of my teachers at school start mentioning war, but they go on about how we shouldn't join and how it's all Bush's fault and the fact that we're all just gonna die in war. We're never encouraged to speak up. None of my questions are ever answered, but you guys have answered some of them! Thank you!
If I was better informed and if I had enough time (I have so much work to get done!), I would definitely start rallying against the war, writing letters, anything to get my opinions heard. But, I cannot at the moment. Instead, I stuck at home wasting my time with useless and stupid projects like the one I have for math.
If I was better informed and if I had enough time (I have so much work to get done!), I would definitely start rallying against the war, writing letters, anything to get my opinions heard. But, I cannot at the moment. Instead, I stuck at home wasting my time with useless and stupid projects like the one I have for math.