I'm an atheist Raf, you prune.
You've missed my point. Nothing to do with beliefs or religion, it's just the political corrrect-ness of it all that annoys me.
I suppose you could just say people saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" really grinds my gears. It's just a pet hate of mine.
Thread
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Being politically correct isn't wrong (as the name suggests). I do get your point if we're talking about hypocrisy. If we're talking about people who speak publically against the use of the word "nigger" in songs, but wouldn't hire a black person, for example.
Unless you really care about the whole meaning behind Christmas, maybe it's more sincere to simply say "Happy Holidays", and people will understand you want them to enjoy their late December/early January break no matter if they're gonna actually celebrate Christmas following Christian traditions or if they'll just party all day and night and not even think about the whole meaning behind these holidays.
Unless you really care about the whole meaning behind Christmas, maybe it's more sincere to simply say "Happy Holidays", and people will understand you want them to enjoy their late December/early January break no matter if they're gonna actually celebrate Christmas following Christian traditions or if they'll just party all day and night and not even think about the whole meaning behind these holidays.
[QUOTE]
[b]StoneColdClassicQueen wrote: [/b]
Oh come on now!
Here I am trying to make a silly thread so that you guys can share bad holiday experiences and no, when I refer to holidays, it means any holiday you might celebrate.
This thread does not discriminate against non-Christmas holidays.
I was only trying to take my mind away from my winter break due to the fact that I've had the worst vacation ever. It's nothing but grief, sorrow, drama, and trouble in my house.
Hi Lizvette! It stinks that you didn't enjoy Christmas vacation. I and i'm sure many other people have had to endure frustrating relatives and friends during holiday seasons. So you are a member of a pretty big club if thats any consolation. Persevere and overcome. And that blowing out the candles on a menorah is bad! Hanukkah Harry ( the jewish santa) refuses to bring even a single gift to a kid who extinguishes the menorah.
[/QUOTE]
[b]StoneColdClassicQueen wrote: [/b]
Oh come on now!
Here I am trying to make a silly thread so that you guys can share bad holiday experiences and no, when I refer to holidays, it means any holiday you might celebrate.
This thread does not discriminate against non-Christmas holidays.
I was only trying to take my mind away from my winter break due to the fact that I've had the worst vacation ever. It's nothing but grief, sorrow, drama, and trouble in my house.
Hi Lizvette! It stinks that you didn't enjoy Christmas vacation. I and i'm sure many other people have had to endure frustrating relatives and friends during holiday seasons. So you are a member of a pretty big club if thats any consolation. Persevere and overcome. And that blowing out the candles on a menorah is bad! Hanukkah Harry ( the jewish santa) refuses to bring even a single gift to a kid who extinguishes the menorah.
[/QUOTE]
Raf, please shut up. Thank you. :)
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
Raf, please shut up. Thank you. :)
[/QUOTE]
How did that comment contribute to the discussion?
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
Raf, please shut up. Thank you. :)
[/QUOTE]
How did that comment contribute to the discussion?
[QUOTE]
[b]Raf wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
Raf, please shut up. Thank you. :)
[/QUOTE]
How did that comment contribute to the discussion?
[/QUOTE]
What you wrote about Christians and Christmas is total bullshit. I respect other religions, I even respect you atheist, although 80% of you are stupid airheads which want to look "different" than others.
[b]Raf wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
Raf, please shut up. Thank you. :)
[/QUOTE]
How did that comment contribute to the discussion?
[/QUOTE]
What you wrote about Christians and Christmas is total bullshit. I respect other religions, I even respect you atheist, although 80% of you are stupid airheads which want to look "different" than others.
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Raf wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
Raf, please shut up. Thank you. :)
[/QUOTE] How did that comment contribute to the discussion?
[/QUOTE]
What you wrote about Christians and Christmas is total bullshit. I respect other religions, I even respect you atheist, although 80% of you are stupid airheads which want to look "different" than others.
[/QUOTE]
And where did you get that fact from? I know a few other atheists - and all of them are rather clever people, and they do NOT brag about being atheists, neither try to look cool, different or rebel. They simply believe there's no God out there.
Treasure Moment is an exception. I wouldn't call him an airhead, though. Most likely vacuumhead. ;)
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Raf wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
Raf, please shut up. Thank you. :)
[/QUOTE] How did that comment contribute to the discussion?
[/QUOTE]
What you wrote about Christians and Christmas is total bullshit. I respect other religions, I even respect you atheist, although 80% of you are stupid airheads which want to look "different" than others.
[/QUOTE]
And where did you get that fact from? I know a few other atheists - and all of them are rather clever people, and they do NOT brag about being atheists, neither try to look cool, different or rebel. They simply believe there's no God out there.
Treasure Moment is an exception. I wouldn't call him an airhead, though. Most likely vacuumhead. ;)
I'm with Freya on this one.
I don't believe in Jesus (or anything else like that), but still I like to wish people a merry Christmas.
Hey, I even celebrate Christmas.
Happy Holidays is very annoying to hear. What about people who don't celebrate anything during this time of year? Atheists? Muslims? Buddhists? Or adherents to any of the countless religions and/or philosophies out there?
Go ahead and be presumptious and wish them happy holidays. So much for caring for minorities.
I don't believe in Jesus (or anything else like that), but still I like to wish people a merry Christmas.
Hey, I even celebrate Christmas.
Happy Holidays is very annoying to hear. What about people who don't celebrate anything during this time of year? Atheists? Muslims? Buddhists? Or adherents to any of the countless religions and/or philosophies out there?
Go ahead and be presumptious and wish them happy holidays. So much for caring for minorities.
@ Raf:
I know many, and trust me, they DO try to look different. They are acting like they are center of the universe and also like they are the smartest people on this freaking planet. They are are putting on some "tolerant" act but they are frustrated people full of prejudices and all they do is bark about how they don't believe in God and how Christians and people who belong to some other religion are hypocrites. Mind your own business, will you (I'm talking about the group of people, not you)? Are they helping other people, going to institutions for kids with special needs, bringing them toys and spending their time with people who TRULY need someone's help and company? I don't think so, they just BARK about it. Haven't seen any atheist turning his words into deeds. Every single person has right to believe in something, or like you in NOTHING. You have no right to say that Christians are hypocrites because they aren't. Saying this you are insulting many people on this forum and you don't seem like a person who likes to do that, you are acting more like some 'tolerant' guy as far as I know. Plus, many Christians are well known saints, they refused to live normal life for others sake and happiness. Mother Teresa for instance, ever heard of her? Won Nobel Prize for Peace in 1979 if that rings a bell. But prize is NOT important, that prize isn't making her what she was, her deeds are. Christians believe in God and are celebrating this Holiday with their families and friends, it is also time to think of other people, the ones who aren't that lucky, time to be generous and kind with each other. We didn't make out Christmas to spend our money on decorations or using it as an excuse, like you said; because we don't want to work. It is a TRADITION for CENTURIES.
I know many, and trust me, they DO try to look different. They are acting like they are center of the universe and also like they are the smartest people on this freaking planet. They are are putting on some "tolerant" act but they are frustrated people full of prejudices and all they do is bark about how they don't believe in God and how Christians and people who belong to some other religion are hypocrites. Mind your own business, will you (I'm talking about the group of people, not you)? Are they helping other people, going to institutions for kids with special needs, bringing them toys and spending their time with people who TRULY need someone's help and company? I don't think so, they just BARK about it. Haven't seen any atheist turning his words into deeds. Every single person has right to believe in something, or like you in NOTHING. You have no right to say that Christians are hypocrites because they aren't. Saying this you are insulting many people on this forum and you don't seem like a person who likes to do that, you are acting more like some 'tolerant' guy as far as I know. Plus, many Christians are well known saints, they refused to live normal life for others sake and happiness. Mother Teresa for instance, ever heard of her? Won Nobel Prize for Peace in 1979 if that rings a bell. But prize is NOT important, that prize isn't making her what she was, her deeds are. Christians believe in God and are celebrating this Holiday with their families and friends, it is also time to think of other people, the ones who aren't that lucky, time to be generous and kind with each other. We didn't make out Christmas to spend our money on decorations or using it as an excuse, like you said; because we don't want to work. It is a TRADITION for CENTURIES.
Jesus surely wouldn't approve of the Roman Catholic church of today, or any other church for that matter.
The Christian faith is hypocritical in many ways, at least the way it is commonly interpreted today.
There, am I insulting you now, Ms. Rebel? Am I not entitled to air my own opinion?
P.S - Jesus was a communist.
The Christian faith is hypocritical in many ways, at least the way it is commonly interpreted today.
There, am I insulting you now, Ms. Rebel? Am I not entitled to air my own opinion?
P.S - Jesus was a communist.
[QUOTE]
[b]Poo, again wrote:
[/b]
Jesus surely wouldn't approve of the Roman Catholic church of today, or any other church for that matter.
The Christian faith is hypocritical in many ways, at least the way it is commonly interpreted today.
There, am I insulting you now, Ms. Rebel? Am I not entitled to air my own opinion?
P.S - Jesus was a communist.
[/QUOTE]
Jesus lived 2000 years before communism and you don't know what communism actually is. It is a most hypocritical political system in 20th century. Even more than Nazism. And you are talking about Roman Catholic church like it is equality of all it's followers. We all know that there are some faults made by the church but you can't compare those kind of things with people who belong in it. Even priests are sometimes in confrontation between themselves. And Pope John Paul II apologized for all the mistakes that have been made by church through whole history. In that way, you are only able to see things in black and white and you don't believe that there are so many people out there who consider themselves Christians and they are also very generous human beings. For you, anyone who considers himself as a religious person is someone with the "defect". In that way, you are as bad as people who you are judging in here. Being a true Christian is trying to be good person as more as it's possible. That is something that people like you simply cannot understand.
[b]Poo, again wrote:
[/b]
Jesus surely wouldn't approve of the Roman Catholic church of today, or any other church for that matter.
The Christian faith is hypocritical in many ways, at least the way it is commonly interpreted today.
There, am I insulting you now, Ms. Rebel? Am I not entitled to air my own opinion?
P.S - Jesus was a communist.
[/QUOTE]
Jesus lived 2000 years before communism and you don't know what communism actually is. It is a most hypocritical political system in 20th century. Even more than Nazism. And you are talking about Roman Catholic church like it is equality of all it's followers. We all know that there are some faults made by the church but you can't compare those kind of things with people who belong in it. Even priests are sometimes in confrontation between themselves. And Pope John Paul II apologized for all the mistakes that have been made by church through whole history. In that way, you are only able to see things in black and white and you don't believe that there are so many people out there who consider themselves Christians and they are also very generous human beings. For you, anyone who considers himself as a religious person is someone with the "defect". In that way, you are as bad as people who you are judging in here. Being a true Christian is trying to be good person as more as it's possible. That is something that people like you simply cannot understand.
"Are they helping other people, going to institutions
for kids with special needs, bringing them toys and spending their
time with people who TRULY need someone's help and company? I don't
think so, they just BARK about it. Haven't seen any atheist turning his
words into deeds."
I've never been afraid to say what I do to help the world: Hardly anything at all. And I'm not ashamed to say why, either: Because I don't have to. That, and many other things often cause some so-called "left-wingies" and slightly more religious people to rage at me. But then, what do THEY do, other than BARK about how we should help our brothers and sisters, and blablabla...? I can safely say I do more than most people who bark at me. The difference between us is, I say there's very little I SHOULD do, but I DO it. They say there's a lot we should do, but they don't actually do anything. My words may be cold, but their [i]actions[/i] are much colder. And that's why I insist they are hypocrites.
"Every single person has right to believe in something, or like you in NOTHING. You have no right to say that Christians are hypocrites because they aren't. Saying this you are insulting many people on this forum and you don't seem like a person who likes to do that, you are acting more like some 'tolerant' guy as far as I know."
Yes, I have the right to believe in nothing. Yet I have to follow laws made by Christians and for Christians. If all I had to put up with was a bunch of people saying "Merry Christmas", who would actually mind it? But you can't forget, for example, that abortion is still illegal in many places, and whenever the governments try to change it, several different Christian churches moan about it. Here in Brazil, the Catholic church is the biggest responsible for this kind of thing. The Pope criticized our anti-AIDS program, because the government gives us free condoms. When a law was made to set the rules for stem cell research back in 2005, the church moved a legal action against the government to stop it, and only THIS YEAR we managed to make the law valid and start our researches. Abortion has been discussed several times here too, and guess who has been making strong opposition...?
If even Christians themselves say everyone should be free to follow whatever religion they want, why do they try to impose theirs through LAWS? My country (and many others) aren't made only of Christians. I don't see the crime behind having sex for pleasure, and I want to protect myself to avoid diseases and to avoid having a baby before I'm ready to be a father. My family is full of heart problems: a dead grandfather, 3 grandparents depending on medicines for the rest of their lives, and my mother already taking medicines to keep her blood pressure regular. If stem cells can make my heart younger and healthier by the time my bad genes start playing their role, I want the right to use them and have a better life without having to take expensive medicines with undesirable side effects. If in the future my lady and I decide to have a baby, and we find out the baby will die shortly after s/he is born, we might want to abort it, rather than carry it for 9 months just to watch our own son/daughter die at the hospital, to spare us from the pain. If I have kids, I want them to learn what Science says about how we were born, not what Christianism says about it. Some churches have fought in Brazil to force schools to teach Creationism instead of Evolutionism at school.
I don't [b]believe[/b] any of those things I want is wrong, but those who think so [b]force[/b] me to act like it is.
If Christian leaders want RESPECT and TOLERANCE, they should spread their own rules INSIDE their churches, to those who want to hear it, rather than try to impose them to everyone. I guess [b]you[/b] wouldn't feel comfortable if [b]my[/b] group had the power and we abolished all sorts of churches and religious books, claiming they spread lies to people. Christians HAVE already been chased, over a millenium ago. Are those memories still alive? Can any of you even imagine what it's like to have your own habits and beliefs forbidden? Do you remember how it feels to be a minority?
"Plus, many Christians are well known saints, they refused to live normal life for others sake and happiness. Mother Teresa for instance, ever heard of her? Won Nobel Prize for Peace in 1979 if that rings a bell."
What about the [b]Age of Enlightenment[/b]? Many important people from their era were atheists, and without them, we could still be living in countries where kings can do whatever they want, aristocrats have privileges and the Catholic church itself would be supporting the whole system and ignoring the suffering of millions of people.
"Christians believe in God and are celebrating this Holiday with their families and friends, it is also time to think of other people, the ones who aren't that lucky, time to be generous and kind with each other."
And how many of you DO think about the ones who aren't that lucky and actually do something about it?
"We didn't make out Christmas to spend our money on decorations or using it as an excuse, like you said; because we don't want to work. It is a TRADITION for CENTURIES."
And being a tradition for centuries is a good thing...? How many revolutions did it take us to reach our current state of freedom, and how many traditions had to be destroyed in the process, since they were among the main causes of the problem...?
Since this is a Queen forum...
[i][b] While we live according[/b] to race, colour or [b]creed[/b]
While we rule by blind madness and pure greed
[b] Our lives dictated by tradition, superstition, false religion[/b]
Through the aeons, and on and on
Oh yes [b]we'll keep on trying
We'll tread that fine line[/b]
Oh oh we'll keep on trying
Till the end of time
Till the end of time
[/i]
Instead of making Christmas a holiday where we swap presents and eat lots, why can't the tradition tell us to help those who need it? It could be a holiday where, instead of not working, we work helping people for free for one day. Or discuss ideas to make the world a better place for everybody. Or you Christians could apologise once a year to a Muslim for the Crusades, to a Jew for the centuries of discrimination, or to Pagans and Atheists for the centuries of murder and tortures.
I've never been afraid to say what I do to help the world: Hardly anything at all. And I'm not ashamed to say why, either: Because I don't have to. That, and many other things often cause some so-called "left-wingies" and slightly more religious people to rage at me. But then, what do THEY do, other than BARK about how we should help our brothers and sisters, and blablabla...? I can safely say I do more than most people who bark at me. The difference between us is, I say there's very little I SHOULD do, but I DO it. They say there's a lot we should do, but they don't actually do anything. My words may be cold, but their [i]actions[/i] are much colder. And that's why I insist they are hypocrites.
"Every single person has right to believe in something, or like you in NOTHING. You have no right to say that Christians are hypocrites because they aren't. Saying this you are insulting many people on this forum and you don't seem like a person who likes to do that, you are acting more like some 'tolerant' guy as far as I know."
Yes, I have the right to believe in nothing. Yet I have to follow laws made by Christians and for Christians. If all I had to put up with was a bunch of people saying "Merry Christmas", who would actually mind it? But you can't forget, for example, that abortion is still illegal in many places, and whenever the governments try to change it, several different Christian churches moan about it. Here in Brazil, the Catholic church is the biggest responsible for this kind of thing. The Pope criticized our anti-AIDS program, because the government gives us free condoms. When a law was made to set the rules for stem cell research back in 2005, the church moved a legal action against the government to stop it, and only THIS YEAR we managed to make the law valid and start our researches. Abortion has been discussed several times here too, and guess who has been making strong opposition...?
If even Christians themselves say everyone should be free to follow whatever religion they want, why do they try to impose theirs through LAWS? My country (and many others) aren't made only of Christians. I don't see the crime behind having sex for pleasure, and I want to protect myself to avoid diseases and to avoid having a baby before I'm ready to be a father. My family is full of heart problems: a dead grandfather, 3 grandparents depending on medicines for the rest of their lives, and my mother already taking medicines to keep her blood pressure regular. If stem cells can make my heart younger and healthier by the time my bad genes start playing their role, I want the right to use them and have a better life without having to take expensive medicines with undesirable side effects. If in the future my lady and I decide to have a baby, and we find out the baby will die shortly after s/he is born, we might want to abort it, rather than carry it for 9 months just to watch our own son/daughter die at the hospital, to spare us from the pain. If I have kids, I want them to learn what Science says about how we were born, not what Christianism says about it. Some churches have fought in Brazil to force schools to teach Creationism instead of Evolutionism at school.
I don't [b]believe[/b] any of those things I want is wrong, but those who think so [b]force[/b] me to act like it is.
If Christian leaders want RESPECT and TOLERANCE, they should spread their own rules INSIDE their churches, to those who want to hear it, rather than try to impose them to everyone. I guess [b]you[/b] wouldn't feel comfortable if [b]my[/b] group had the power and we abolished all sorts of churches and religious books, claiming they spread lies to people. Christians HAVE already been chased, over a millenium ago. Are those memories still alive? Can any of you even imagine what it's like to have your own habits and beliefs forbidden? Do you remember how it feels to be a minority?
"Plus, many Christians are well known saints, they refused to live normal life for others sake and happiness. Mother Teresa for instance, ever heard of her? Won Nobel Prize for Peace in 1979 if that rings a bell."
What about the [b]Age of Enlightenment[/b]? Many important people from their era were atheists, and without them, we could still be living in countries where kings can do whatever they want, aristocrats have privileges and the Catholic church itself would be supporting the whole system and ignoring the suffering of millions of people.
"Christians believe in God and are celebrating this Holiday with their families and friends, it is also time to think of other people, the ones who aren't that lucky, time to be generous and kind with each other."
And how many of you DO think about the ones who aren't that lucky and actually do something about it?
"We didn't make out Christmas to spend our money on decorations or using it as an excuse, like you said; because we don't want to work. It is a TRADITION for CENTURIES."
And being a tradition for centuries is a good thing...? How many revolutions did it take us to reach our current state of freedom, and how many traditions had to be destroyed in the process, since they were among the main causes of the problem...?
Since this is a Queen forum...
[i][b] While we live according[/b] to race, colour or [b]creed[/b]
While we rule by blind madness and pure greed
[b] Our lives dictated by tradition, superstition, false religion[/b]
Through the aeons, and on and on
Oh yes [b]we'll keep on trying
We'll tread that fine line[/b]
Oh oh we'll keep on trying
Till the end of time
Till the end of time
[/i]
Instead of making Christmas a holiday where we swap presents and eat lots, why can't the tradition tell us to help those who need it? It could be a holiday where, instead of not working, we work helping people for free for one day. Or discuss ideas to make the world a better place for everybody. Or you Christians could apologise once a year to a Muslim for the Crusades, to a Jew for the centuries of discrimination, or to Pagans and Atheists for the centuries of murder and tortures.
What's so ridiculous in this discussion is the idea that Atheists do not donate part of their lives to helping others. Charity, it's implied, is only a Christian thing.
"Are they helping other people, going to institutions for kids with special needs, bringing them toys and spending their time with people who TRULY need someone's help and company? I don't think so, they just BARK about it. Haven't seen any atheist turning his words into deeds."
I've never been at a charity event where I've charted how many people belonged to a religious or non-religious group. People are there to help - who cares what, if any, religion they have. Giving time, money and/or ideas to those in need is not something only those of one religious faith or another will do. And - having come at this from both sides during my life - I'd say more Atheists bring with them a genuine desire to help whereas many of those coming with the church do so out of a sense of some future reward. I'll take the genuine gesture over the other any time.
I doubt these points will be accepted though, since, in my experience, there are more defenders of religion than actual and honest believers.
EDIT: Brilliant post, Raf.
"Are they helping other people, going to institutions for kids with special needs, bringing them toys and spending their time with people who TRULY need someone's help and company? I don't think so, they just BARK about it. Haven't seen any atheist turning his words into deeds."
I've never been at a charity event where I've charted how many people belonged to a religious or non-religious group. People are there to help - who cares what, if any, religion they have. Giving time, money and/or ideas to those in need is not something only those of one religious faith or another will do. And - having come at this from both sides during my life - I'd say more Atheists bring with them a genuine desire to help whereas many of those coming with the church do so out of a sense of some future reward. I'll take the genuine gesture over the other any time.
I doubt these points will be accepted though, since, in my experience, there are more defenders of religion than actual and honest believers.
EDIT: Brilliant post, Raf.
Both of you can't see the forest because there are too many trees, so I'm gonna stop wasting my time because you're not worth it. I hope someday you'll understand.
I fear people read far too much into my post. *sigh*