lalaalalaa
Brian might be the anchor, but Freddie's the ship :P
Thread
Posts in chronological order
Sebastian
Of course Mr Elliot would say that: Brian's his closest friend in the band and probably the only Queen member who cares about Lep. If Joe ever met Freddie this is probably how the conversation went:
Joe: Hi Freddie, it's so great to finally meet you, I'm a huge fan!
Freddie: Who the bloody hell are you?
Joe: I sing in Def Leppard and... (gets interrupted)
Freddie: Phoebe! Time to take out the rubbish! Get this mis-spelling bastard out of here!
Joe: But Fred, you love Led Zeppelin...
Freddie: How dare you compare your group with them?
So, it's natural that Joe's Brian-biased. BTW, Freddie did love Led Zeppelin a lot. He often cited Robert Plant as his favourite singer (or one of his favourites). He also cited Michael Jackson, Paul Young, Aretha, Montserrat, and his friends have also mentioned he had a soft spot for Prince, Bowie and others. And d'you know who was never mentioned in those lists before '04? Paul Rodgers!
Joe: Hi Freddie, it's so great to finally meet you, I'm a huge fan!
Freddie: Who the bloody hell are you?
Joe: I sing in Def Leppard and... (gets interrupted)
Freddie: Phoebe! Time to take out the rubbish! Get this mis-spelling bastard out of here!
Joe: But Fred, you love Led Zeppelin...
Freddie: How dare you compare your group with them?
So, it's natural that Joe's Brian-biased. BTW, Freddie did love Led Zeppelin a lot. He often cited Robert Plant as his favourite singer (or one of his favourites). He also cited Michael Jackson, Paul Young, Aretha, Montserrat, and his friends have also mentioned he had a soft spot for Prince, Bowie and others. And d'you know who was never mentioned in those lists before '04? Paul Rodgers!
mike hunt
[QUOTE]
[b]brENsKi wrote: [/b]
and let's not forget...some of queen's loudest and biggest rockers...were Freddie's songs
Liar
Great King Rat
Ogre Battle
March of the Black Queen
Seven Seas of Rhye
Death on Two Legs
[/QUOTE] I think Orge battle and great king rat were the heaviest songs Queen ever did.
[b]brENsKi wrote: [/b]
and let's not forget...some of queen's loudest and biggest rockers...were Freddie's songs
Liar
Great King Rat
Ogre Battle
March of the Black Queen
Seven Seas of Rhye
Death on Two Legs
[/QUOTE] I think Orge battle and great king rat were the heaviest songs Queen ever did.
Bo Rhap
I think its fair to say that they all needed each other.
They kinda fed off one another's ideas in the studio.
And then there is the live perfomances.Especially in the seventies,when it was just the 4 of them.They all kinda relied on Brian quite heavily.When Freddie would stop playing his piano to do a bit of lead singing,Brian would very often have to cover for Freddie not playing his piano.Therefore becoming a rhythm guitarist who throws in a few lead riffs every now and again.
They kinda fed off one another's ideas in the studio.
And then there is the live perfomances.Especially in the seventies,when it was just the 4 of them.They all kinda relied on Brian quite heavily.When Freddie would stop playing his piano to do a bit of lead singing,Brian would very often have to cover for Freddie not playing his piano.Therefore becoming a rhythm guitarist who throws in a few lead riffs every now and again.
cmsdrums
[QUOTE]
[b]GratefulFan wrote: [/b]
Joe Elliot as quoted in 'Brian May: The Definitive Biography" by Laura Jackson
"It is my personal belief that Brian was the big anchor of Queen. I don't take anything away from the other three, but had it not been for Brian then I think they would have become a pop band and not as big as they are.
[b]THEY DID BECOME A POP BAND AND BECAME MASSIVE ON THE BACK OF IT
[/b] Freddie, I feel, would have leaned more towards ballads and Roger to pop.
'Radio Ga Ga' is a terrific Queen number but very pop. The hard stuff is down to Brian. I think he kept a crucial and unique balance in the band."
[b]ROGER - SHEER HEART ATTACK, FREDDIE - OGRE BATTLE, BRIAN - ALL DEAD, ALL DEAD[/b][/QUOTE]
I think, taking into account my points above (and those of others on this topic), Joe Eilliott was MASSIVELY generalising don't you think?!!!
[b]GratefulFan wrote: [/b]
Joe Elliot as quoted in 'Brian May: The Definitive Biography" by Laura Jackson
"It is my personal belief that Brian was the big anchor of Queen. I don't take anything away from the other three, but had it not been for Brian then I think they would have become a pop band and not as big as they are.
[b]THEY DID BECOME A POP BAND AND BECAME MASSIVE ON THE BACK OF IT
[/b] Freddie, I feel, would have leaned more towards ballads and Roger to pop.
'Radio Ga Ga' is a terrific Queen number but very pop. The hard stuff is down to Brian. I think he kept a crucial and unique balance in the band."
[b]ROGER - SHEER HEART ATTACK, FREDDIE - OGRE BATTLE, BRIAN - ALL DEAD, ALL DEAD[/b][/QUOTE]
I think, taking into account my points above (and those of others on this topic), Joe Eilliott was MASSIVELY generalising don't you think?!!!
Penetration_Guru
When was this book published?
YourValentine
It was published in 2007 but do not bother. It's just as crappy as her Freddie book and she copied pages and pages of her Freddie book into this one. Mr. Scully translated it into Czech and he had hard times to just translate it and not rewrite it :-)
ParisNair
I have her book, Queen - The Definitive Biography. And this was published in the late 90s (I think). This quote from Joe Elliot appears there too.
Another from that book that just came to mind is from Tony Iommi. He said that Brian was responsible for keeping the band together, or something like that, and likened it to his own role in Sabbath.
Another from that book that just came to mind is from Tony Iommi. He said that Brian was responsible for keeping the band together, or something like that, and likened it to his own role in Sabbath.
Saif
Joe Elliot has no credibility. Def Leppard started of as an NWOBHM band and it was Joe Elliot who pushed to soften their sound. I think they suck and they're a joke nowadays. Except their debut album, none of their material is that heavy. Joe Elliot is just a dumbass, even though his statement about Brian is more or less true.
Amazon
[QUOTE]
[b]Soundfreak wrote: [/b]
I do not understand why people always try to divide a band into important or less important members.
I think the sentence "the sum of a band is bigger than the sum of the individual members" says it all.
It's the chemistry of certain people getting together that makes a band exciting.
Freddie and Brian definitely put their stamp on the Queen sound. But with Roger and John and their enormous stylistic variety they could work out all those ideas.
Imagine the Beatles without Ringo...all their movies would have been quite boring as he was a brilliant actor and added so much to the visual image of the band. And yet people tend to say it was all Lennon and McCartney... [/QUOTE]
I think that George played a pretty big role as well. :D
I think you're right though that groups shouldn't always be divided into important or less important members. While I do think that Queen has more important members, I wouldn't want to replace either John or Roger for the world. In fact, when people talk about when Queen ended, for me, it wasn't when Freddie died. It was when John retired. If John hadn't retired, I would still regard the group (minus Freddie) as Queen.
[b]Soundfreak wrote: [/b]
I do not understand why people always try to divide a band into important or less important members.
I think the sentence "the sum of a band is bigger than the sum of the individual members" says it all.
It's the chemistry of certain people getting together that makes a band exciting.
Freddie and Brian definitely put their stamp on the Queen sound. But with Roger and John and their enormous stylistic variety they could work out all those ideas.
Imagine the Beatles without Ringo...all their movies would have been quite boring as he was a brilliant actor and added so much to the visual image of the band. And yet people tend to say it was all Lennon and McCartney... [/QUOTE]
I think that George played a pretty big role as well. :D
I think you're right though that groups shouldn't always be divided into important or less important members. While I do think that Queen has more important members, I wouldn't want to replace either John or Roger for the world. In fact, when people talk about when Queen ended, for me, it wasn't when Freddie died. It was when John retired. If John hadn't retired, I would still regard the group (minus Freddie) as Queen.
GratefulFan
[QUOTE]
[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]
It was published in 2007 but do not bother. It's just as crappy as her Freddie book and she copied pages and pages of her Freddie book into this one. Mr. Scully translated it into Czech and he had hard times to just translate it and not rewrite it :-)[/QUOTE]
I find most of the books are pastiches of all the other ones out there. There is very little truly original research. I did enjoy some early sections that focused on the music. They were written in a similar style and voice to The Early Years book, but covering a period that began where the other book ended. After that though the whole thing got a little thin.
[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]
It was published in 2007 but do not bother. It's just as crappy as her Freddie book and she copied pages and pages of her Freddie book into this one. Mr. Scully translated it into Czech and he had hard times to just translate it and not rewrite it :-)[/QUOTE]
I find most of the books are pastiches of all the other ones out there. There is very little truly original research. I did enjoy some early sections that focused on the music. They were written in a similar style and voice to The Early Years book, but covering a period that began where the other book ended. After that though the whole thing got a little thin.
maxpower
For F**** sake this is why Queen fans annoy me, he was generalising at the end of day Brian plays the guitar so he is more rock & blues orientated end of story. Oh & Joe Elliott has two "t''s see we can all nitpick
GratefulFan
Yeah, I noticed that the other day when I saw Joe Elliott's name elsewhere online. My apologies to Joe. It actually really bugs me when I spell people's names wrong.
Anyway, to the point of the original post. I think he was right and I think he was wrong. The fusion of four different musicians pulling at four different tensions was always the key to the brilliant material. While some of my favourite tracks are Brian tracks, left mostly to his own devices he was capable of boring the hell out of me probably more than the other three put together. 'Hammer to Fall', which Joe apparently singled out in the conversation I quoted as a fantastic example of Brian's heavy influence, is a really ordinary unimpressive song. Ditto 'I Want it All' and 'Scandal'.
I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that the period after Hot Space and before Innuendo saw a slide in general quality because it seems to me to have been a time when a variety of factors came together in a way that saw creative tension become creative compromise out of sheer necessity. They seemed to start playing on each others songs more than genuinely co-creating which saw the emergence of tracks easy to file under pop, sappy ballad, hard rock etc. Once Freddie's grave illness required them to truly pull together to create once again we got Innuendo.
So yes, Brian was a big heavy anchor that kept a great ship from drifting too far off course, but without any one of them that ship wasn't going anywhere near as interesting.
Anyway, to the point of the original post. I think he was right and I think he was wrong. The fusion of four different musicians pulling at four different tensions was always the key to the brilliant material. While some of my favourite tracks are Brian tracks, left mostly to his own devices he was capable of boring the hell out of me probably more than the other three put together. 'Hammer to Fall', which Joe apparently singled out in the conversation I quoted as a fantastic example of Brian's heavy influence, is a really ordinary unimpressive song. Ditto 'I Want it All' and 'Scandal'.
I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that the period after Hot Space and before Innuendo saw a slide in general quality because it seems to me to have been a time when a variety of factors came together in a way that saw creative tension become creative compromise out of sheer necessity. They seemed to start playing on each others songs more than genuinely co-creating which saw the emergence of tracks easy to file under pop, sappy ballad, hard rock etc. Once Freddie's grave illness required them to truly pull together to create once again we got Innuendo.
So yes, Brian was a big heavy anchor that kept a great ship from drifting too far off course, but without any one of them that ship wasn't going anywhere near as interesting.
Sebastian
[QUOTE]
[b]GratefulFan wrote: [/b]
I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that the period after Hot Space and before Innuendo saw a slide in general quality because it seems to me to have been a time when a variety of factors came together in a way that saw creative tension become creative compromise out of sheer necessity. They seemed to start playing on each others songs more than genuinely co-creating which saw the emergence of tracks easy to file under pop, sappy ballad, hard rock etc. Once Freddie's grave illness required them to truly pull together to create once again we got Innuendo.[/QUOTE]
Actually, all the Quen period (1970-1991, that is) featured both sides of songwriting/arranging: collaborative and individual. We've got Fred taking [i]Ga Ga [/i]and [i]Magic[/i] under his wing and virtually tearing them to pieces and building them over again, we've got the three founding members discussing [i]One Vision[/i] details, Dr May putting lyrics to [i]It's a Hard Life[/i] and suggesting the reversed-order at the end of [i]Friends Will Be Friends[/i], all five of them discussing [i]Under Pressure[/i] (though the actual writing was mostly done by two people), guest musicians having a lot more input than before (Mandel, Kamen, Blake, Mardin, the producers and of course Bowie), etc.
And during 'Innuendo' (as well as 'The Miracle' and all three post-'Innuendo' songs), there was a lot of individual songwriting as well. So, at the end of the day, such dynamics didn't change too much throughout their career. Many things came from interaction and ideas suggested from all corners (and never restricted to only the parts each one played or sang), many things were written beforehand by the author of the song and then taught to the others. And there are great results from both approaches, as well as some poor ones.
What is true about Elliott's remark is that Brian was chiefly responsible for the 'classic Queen sound' especially when the others went in other directions. For instance, 'A Night at the Opera' features a lot of styles hardly ever actually explored by Queen (opera, vaudeville, skiffle, dixieland) and the only song which is goold ol' simple straightforward rock 'n' roll is [i]Sweet Lady[/i] as well as the 'regular' [i]Prophet's Song[/i] sections. While the rest of the album is also phenomenal, it was still a rock album thanks to Brian... without him, we'd have [i]Lazing on a Sunday Afternoon[/i] and [i]Love of My Life[/i] type of things, which aren't rock per se. [i]I'm in Love With My Car[/i] may also qualify for some extent, but [i]Two Legs[/i] is way too 'clasically-affected' to be regarded 'normal'. Of course, it's a fantastic song, but it's not what a 'normal' rock group would do. [i]Sweet Lady[/i] and [i]Prophet's Song[/i] (sans the interlude) are.
Same for 'Races': we've got Roger going for a more soulful side, John with a brilliant pop tune, Freddie going waltz, gospel, vaudeville and his usual piano ballad but it was Brian who brought the rock side with [i]Tie Your Mother Down[/i] and [i]White Man[/i]. Same for the late era: [i]Put Out the Fire[/i] in 'Hot Space' (simple, straightforward, no synths, killer solo, distorted electric guitars), [i]Hammer to Fall[/i] in 'The Works' (the least-poppy track in a very poppy album), [i]Gimme the Prize[/i] (simple, straightforward, no synths, distorted electric guitars, almost 'metal' intro, some of Brian's best, most difficult and most underrated guitar bits), [i]I Want It All[/i] (simple, straightforward, distorted electric guitars, killer guitar solos), [i]Headlong [/i](simple, straightforward, distorted electric guitars, killer guitar solos), even [i]The Show Must Go On[/i] (the pinnacle of what can be regarded as 'rock anthem', including both a softer side and some marvellous guitar work in a rock, not pop, vein).
While Freddie's expeditions into heaviness ([i]Two Legs, Princes, Ogre, Great King Rat,[/i] even [i]The Hitman[/i]) were ornamented with his usual style and eccentricity (unusual chords, elaborate forms, classical touches however subtle) and often featured keyboards, Brian was 'the man' when it came to regular rock and roll. Neither side of the band was absolutely 'better' or 'worse' than the other, and while some (me included) may believe one was more fundamental than the other (i.e. one represented 30% and the other represented 25%, for instance), it is also true that they were both vital for Queen.
[b]GratefulFan wrote: [/b]
I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that the period after Hot Space and before Innuendo saw a slide in general quality because it seems to me to have been a time when a variety of factors came together in a way that saw creative tension become creative compromise out of sheer necessity. They seemed to start playing on each others songs more than genuinely co-creating which saw the emergence of tracks easy to file under pop, sappy ballad, hard rock etc. Once Freddie's grave illness required them to truly pull together to create once again we got Innuendo.[/QUOTE]
Actually, all the Quen period (1970-1991, that is) featured both sides of songwriting/arranging: collaborative and individual. We've got Fred taking [i]Ga Ga [/i]and [i]Magic[/i] under his wing and virtually tearing them to pieces and building them over again, we've got the three founding members discussing [i]One Vision[/i] details, Dr May putting lyrics to [i]It's a Hard Life[/i] and suggesting the reversed-order at the end of [i]Friends Will Be Friends[/i], all five of them discussing [i]Under Pressure[/i] (though the actual writing was mostly done by two people), guest musicians having a lot more input than before (Mandel, Kamen, Blake, Mardin, the producers and of course Bowie), etc.
And during 'Innuendo' (as well as 'The Miracle' and all three post-'Innuendo' songs), there was a lot of individual songwriting as well. So, at the end of the day, such dynamics didn't change too much throughout their career. Many things came from interaction and ideas suggested from all corners (and never restricted to only the parts each one played or sang), many things were written beforehand by the author of the song and then taught to the others. And there are great results from both approaches, as well as some poor ones.
What is true about Elliott's remark is that Brian was chiefly responsible for the 'classic Queen sound' especially when the others went in other directions. For instance, 'A Night at the Opera' features a lot of styles hardly ever actually explored by Queen (opera, vaudeville, skiffle, dixieland) and the only song which is goold ol' simple straightforward rock 'n' roll is [i]Sweet Lady[/i] as well as the 'regular' [i]Prophet's Song[/i] sections. While the rest of the album is also phenomenal, it was still a rock album thanks to Brian... without him, we'd have [i]Lazing on a Sunday Afternoon[/i] and [i]Love of My Life[/i] type of things, which aren't rock per se. [i]I'm in Love With My Car[/i] may also qualify for some extent, but [i]Two Legs[/i] is way too 'clasically-affected' to be regarded 'normal'. Of course, it's a fantastic song, but it's not what a 'normal' rock group would do. [i]Sweet Lady[/i] and [i]Prophet's Song[/i] (sans the interlude) are.
Same for 'Races': we've got Roger going for a more soulful side, John with a brilliant pop tune, Freddie going waltz, gospel, vaudeville and his usual piano ballad but it was Brian who brought the rock side with [i]Tie Your Mother Down[/i] and [i]White Man[/i]. Same for the late era: [i]Put Out the Fire[/i] in 'Hot Space' (simple, straightforward, no synths, killer solo, distorted electric guitars), [i]Hammer to Fall[/i] in 'The Works' (the least-poppy track in a very poppy album), [i]Gimme the Prize[/i] (simple, straightforward, no synths, distorted electric guitars, almost 'metal' intro, some of Brian's best, most difficult and most underrated guitar bits), [i]I Want It All[/i] (simple, straightforward, distorted electric guitars, killer guitar solos), [i]Headlong [/i](simple, straightforward, distorted electric guitars, killer guitar solos), even [i]The Show Must Go On[/i] (the pinnacle of what can be regarded as 'rock anthem', including both a softer side and some marvellous guitar work in a rock, not pop, vein).
While Freddie's expeditions into heaviness ([i]Two Legs, Princes, Ogre, Great King Rat,[/i] even [i]The Hitman[/i]) were ornamented with his usual style and eccentricity (unusual chords, elaborate forms, classical touches however subtle) and often featured keyboards, Brian was 'the man' when it came to regular rock and roll. Neither side of the band was absolutely 'better' or 'worse' than the other, and while some (me included) may believe one was more fundamental than the other (i.e. one represented 30% and the other represented 25%, for instance), it is also true that they were both vital for Queen.
GratefulFan
Sebastian, those songfacts and collaborative efforts are well documented and well known. Clearly I wasn't implying that the members of Queen ever functioned solely as session musicans for each other. I'm talking about qualitative differences between being a young and hungry band with things left to conquer and being an outfit 10 years on figuring out how to stay together through increasing divergence on multiple fronts. The 'whoever wrote the song gets final say on how it goes' rule really, really showed in the 80's. And the quality really suffered for it, and not least in Brian's heavier but wholly ordinary tracks. That was the point I was trying to make. It's worth noting that Freddie deserved a good spanking for 'The Miracle' too.