Freddie Mercury Vs. Brian Wilson

Eh.  Fair enough, especially the Freddie songs.  Brian's stuff can be esoteric.  I guess Queen's music is more challenging for me because of how the music and words can take you places - especally the 70s albums.  Lyrically you're right, it's not poetry.

But I could spend hours thinking about the physics involved in Fat Bottomed Girls causing the rotation of the earth.  :)

Regarding this issue of depth, I don't  necessarily believe that a song has to contain enormous depth in order to be great. I Want It All remains IMO among Queen's best hard rock songs while We Will Rock You and Don't Stop Me Now remain IMO among the greatest songs of all time. What made these songs great IMO were the lyrics, Freddie's vocals, the instrumentation, as well as the concepts. The fact that these songs may not have had all that much depth is IMO irrelevent. Afterall, music is more than lyrics, and really, the best lyrics in the world are arguably those which are most successful at accomplishing their task, not those which have all that much depth. In fact a song may contain incredible depth, but that doesn't make it good.

In regards to Brian Wilson, there are several Beach Boys songs that I think are absolutely gorgeous yet they don't have overwhelming depth. That is why I regard Brian to be brilliant. He was capable of writing and recording among the most beautiful and inventive music I've ever heard.

Rubbersuit wrote: "Eh.  Fair enough, especially the Freddie songs.  Brian's stuff can be esoteric.  I guess Queen's music is more challenging for me because of how the music and words can take you places - especally the 70s albums.  Lyrically you're right, it's not poetry. But I could spend hours thinking about the physics involved in Fat Bottomed Girls causing the rotation of the earth.  :)"

I passionately disagree with this. :D Freddie IMO was a song-writing genius who was every bit as good as Dylan, Cohen, Lennon/McCartney, Harrison, Wilson, Page/Plant, Sly Stone etc... I would argue that Freddie's lyrics were absolutely poetry, since they were so imaginative, incredibly beautiful, ambigurous and quite stunning. Many of his lyrics were arguably extremely challenging (such as Death on Two Legs in regards to its bluntness) and they could also be eoteric (The March of the Black Queen for example). I actually think it's unfair to compare music with poetry, since they are completely different artforms, however I would be perfectly comfortable describing Freddie as a poet (in the same way that Dylan or Cohen have been referred to as poets) in a non-Queen fan setting.

I think freddie was right up there with the best songwriter's in history....very underated,  but his lryics were his weakest part of his game IMO.   Really all the members of Queen wern't the best lryicist.  Including brian.  They still had some great moments.  I alway's leaned towards the non serious music (lryically) anyway.  Queen, priest,  Even the who wern't all that serious in their lryics.   what makes freddie an all time great is the fact that his songs are so unique and original, creative when he was at his best.  Love of my life is up there with the great beatle songs,  Who else could write a song like the millionare waltz?...or bicycle race?....He was one of the most original songwriter's in rock history, while most rockers were taking stuff from the blues, freddie came from a totally different place, which is what makes him so original.

Freddie said his lyrics were his weakest point. And I think Freddie knew about Freddie more than we do.

Regarding Brian Wilson: while he was great, I do agree he may have been overrated in a Syd Vicious sort of way (madman = genius). Has he been mentally healthy, he'd be considered on the same vein as his (deceased) brothers or Mike: great, but that's it. Same for Gilmour, for instance.

1)mike hunt wrote: "I think freddie was right up there with the best songwriter's in history....very underated,  but his lryics were his weakest part of his game IMO.   Really all the members of Queen wern't the best lryicist. Including brian.  They still had some great moments.  I alway's leaned towards the non serious music (lryically) anyway.  Queen, priest,  Even the who wern't all that serious in their lryics." I guess it comes down to how one defines good lyrics. If it's serious lyrics about world events or about the working class, then yes, Queen weren't particularly great lyricists, but I don't think that great lyrics need only be that. I think that all Queen members were terrific lyricists, but speaking of Freddie specifically, I think of songs like The March of the Black Queen, Killer Queen, Death on Two Legs, Bo Rhap and Good Old Fashioned Lover Boy etc, to name just a few, and I remain stunned by his lyrics.

2)Sebastian wrote: "Freddie said his lyrics were his weakest point. And I think Freddie knew about Freddie more than we do"
I don't know about that. Freddie may very well believe that his lyrics were his weakest point, but that does not mean that we have to agree with that. Ultimately, it's one man's opinion. Now, if Freddie said that he found lyrics the toughest part, then nobody can argue with that (who are we to tell him what he found easy or difficult), but if he's talking about the quality of the finished product, then I would no hesitation in disagreeing with him.

(BTW, I hate the editing on this site! I try to make a space between two paragraphs, and it won't let me.)

Sebastian wrote:

Regarding Brian Wilson: while he was great, I do agree he may have been overrated in a Syd Vicious sort of way (madman = genius). Has he been mentally healthy, he'd be considered on the same vein as his (deceased) brothers or Mike: great, but that's it. Same for Gilmour, for instance.
Wrong. Even before he got ill Brian was conceived as a musical genius. He even appeared on a Leonard Bernstein-show in 1966, performing Surf's Up. Pet Sounds got huuuuge acclaim in the UK and had lots of influence on the Beatles and other artists.

I think that if Brian hadn't gotten ill, he would be even more famous then he is today. Imagine him finishing Smile in 1967, at age 25. What would've been his next step?

Pim Derks wrote: Sebastian wrote:

Regarding Brian Wilson: while he was great, I do agree he may have been overrated in a Syd Vicious sort of way (madman = genius). Has he been mentally healthy, he'd be considered on the same vein as his (deceased) brothers or Mike: great, but that's it. Same for Gilmour, for instance.
Wrong. Even before he got ill Brian was conceived as a musical genius. He even appeared on a Leonard Bernstein-show in 1966, performing Surf's Up. Pet Sounds got huuuuge acclaim in the UK and had lots of influence on the Beatles and other artists.

I think that if Brian hadn't gotten ill, he would be even more famous then he is today. Imagine him finishing Smile in 1967, at age 25. What would've been his next step?

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Well that depends. When Heroes and Villans was released, it didn't do as well as the previous single (Good Vibrations, a #1 hit), and it totally hurt him. And Heroes was supposed to be the main piece to Smile. So it all depended on how the public reaction was. He said (and still to this day), that chart postions doesn't mean anything to him, but I know it does. It has to. He was devestated that Heroes wasn't a hit as big as Good Vibrations. He told everyone, including his dad, that it'd be the biggest hit the Beach Boys would have, but it wasn't. I don't even think it mad top ten. He was pretty distraught about that.

Amazon wrote: 1)mike hunt wrote: "I think freddie was right up there with the best songwriter's in history....very underated,  but his lryics were his weakest part of his game IMO.   Really all the members of Queen wern't the best lryicist. Including brian.  They still had some great moments.  I alway's leaned towards the non serious music (lryically) anyway.  Queen, priest,  Even the who wern't all that serious in their lryics." I guess it comes down to how one defines good lyrics. If it's serious lyrics about world events or about the working class, then yes, Queen weren't particularly great lyricists, but I don't think that great lyrics need only be that. I think that all Queen members were terrific lyricists, but speaking of Freddie specifically, I think of songs like The March of the Black Queen, Killer Queen, Death on Two Legs, Bo Rhap and Good Old Fashioned Lover Boy etc, to name just a few, and I remain stunned by his lyrics.

2)Sebastian wrote: "Freddie said his lyrics were his weakest point. And I think Freddie knew about Freddie more than we do"
I don't know about that. Freddie may very well believe that his lyrics were his weakest point, but that does not mean that we have to agree with that. Ultimately, it's one man's opinion. Now, if Freddie said that he found lyrics the toughest part, then nobody can argue with that (who are we to tell him what he found easy or difficult), but if he's talking about the quality of the finished product, then I would no hesitation in disagreeing with him.

(BTW, I hate the editing on this site! I try to make a space between two paragraphs, and it won't let me.)

Freddie wasn't bad lryically at all,   Somebody to love was a great one.

Regarding BW: He'd already had issues long before Pet Sounds. Which makes me stick to my point: to the public eye, Crazy = Genius. Just like Syd. BTW, FTR, I'm not saying he's not a genius, and I'm not saying he is.

Regarding Fred's lyrics being his weakest point: If you've got five people, aged 100, 102, 105, 110 and 120, the hundred-YO is the youngest, but he or she is still old. Same here: lyrics could be good, but still not as good as the other aspects of his songwriting (melody, harmony, rhythm, arrangements).

The released version of Heroes and Villains was not the version intended for Smile. It was a quick remake they did for the Smiley Smile album.