Belgium Decides To Ban The Burqa

Sir GH wrote:"I'm just waiting for the day when someone robs a bank in a burqa, gets arrested, is forced to take the burqa off in jail, throws the freedom of religion card, and gets away with the crime." But would that ever happen? I don't know about Canada, but in Australia, if someone robs a bank, is convicted of it and is sent to prison, they won't be able to get out if it under any circumstance. I think your fears are misplaced.


Plus, even if someone were to rob a bank using a burqa, is that any reason to ban it? Afterall, people have been known to rob banks wearing halloween masks, wigs and sunglasses and numerous other things.

"This is one of a thousand reasons why revealing one's identity is a cornerstone of western culture. Ban the burqa in public now." What about freedom of religion and choice?

I should admitt that this issue is rather personal for me, however I really do think that part of being in a liberal democracy is not legally forcing women to wear/not to wear particular clothing.

tcc wrote: "You assume that it is a woman wearing a burqa. It could be a man inside - we don't know."


I won't attempt to reengage you in a debate, but I just want to say that if your concern is that men might wear it, you might as well ban all women's clothes. :D

Amazon wrote:

"I don't know about Canada, but in Australia, if someone robs a bank, is convicted of it and is sent to prison, they won't be able to get out if it under any circumstance. I think your fears are misplaced."

I certainly hope you're right.  But in this country, the religion card gets thrown at anything.  This is exactly why "freedom of religion" needs to go, so that we don't favour one faith over another... we thereby favour none.  Otherwise we haven't separated church and state.

Freedom of religion is a nonsensical idea in the 21st century.  If you want to believe in things and they bring you strength, then great.  But if you are going to impose your values on established western culture, then go back home.  We never wore burqas here, and we do not oppress women... and we never will.

the burga, the nun habit, the jewish head cap - all are outdated and i think to myself they should be all outlawed.  I do not believe i just to single out the muslems because it is totally wrong - all religious wear should be outlaw.

sure to this generation its "infringment of rights" but within 50 years no one will even care beacuse they forget what the stupid dress looks like in the first place ......   they are all outdated and won't be missed

if you do this and also take away the ability of any church to take in money - from the catholic church to scientology - religion will be finally a free and personal thing instead of a malign institution.  they (God-believing people) exist to help us find answers, not to feed us 1000 year old doctrines and bullshit.   and no one should ever have to pay for the truth because it is free.  and should always be so

this is how i feel on the things anyway because i really think that aspect of religios culture is out the window as soon as possible.  i dont have against people who believe in God because that is nothing to do with organized religions.  fuck the church.

Sir GH wrote: I'm just waiting for the day when someone robs a bank in a burqa, gets arrested, is forced to take the burqa off in jail, throws the freedom of religion card, and gets away with the crime.

This is one of a thousand reasons why revealing one's identity is a cornerstone of western culture.  Ban the burqa in public now.

That kite don't fly. When someone has been arrested, it is an additional crime (yes, I actually think it's a crime and not a misdemeanor in most countries) to hinder the process of identification. So, the "freedom of religion card" wouldn't apply.

andreas_mercury wrote:

"the burga, the nun habit, the jewish head cap - all are outdated and i think to myself they should be all outlawed.  I do not believe i just to single out the muslems because it is totally wrong - all religious wear should be outlaw."

The latter two will never be banned.  The issue here is the fact that we can't see a woman's face when concealed under the burqa, not someone's hair.  If we're going to ban the Jewish head cap, then we might as well ban baseball caps too, and wearing coats with hoods in the winter.

ThomasQuinn wrote:
"When someone has been arrested, it is an additional crime (yes, I actually think it's a crime and not a misdemeanor in most countries) to hinder the process of identification."

You're right, that's the law.  But if freedom of religion is in the constitution of a country, what's bigger - that or the law?

"If we're going to ban the Jewish head cap, then we might as well ban
baseball caps too, and wearing coats with hoods in the winter."

=====

i support a ban to baseball caps, to my memory everyone I've ever met who wore them is an idiot...

Sir GH wrote: "This is exactly why "freedom of religion" needs to go, so that we don't favour one faith over another... we thereby favour none. Otherwise we haven't separated church and state.


Freedom of religion is a nonsensical idea in the 21st century. If you want to believe in things and they bring you strength, then great."

Why does freedom of religion need to go? Are you saying that if I was living in your ideal society, I wouldn't be able to choose which religion I belonged to, or I couldn't belong to any? This is going beyond separation of church and state. Instead of treating religious and non-religious people as equal, you want to treat non-religious people as superior.

"But if you are going to impose your values on established western culture, then go back home."

The problem is that it is quite debatable as to what western culture (and values) actually is. With all due respect, your values are not mine, and my values may very well not be yours.

Also, nobody is imposing their values onyone, except those who want to ban the burqa.

As an example, you say that the difference between Jewish skullcaps, the nun's habbit and the burqa is that the burqa conceals women's faces, well I don't consider showing one's face to be an intrinsic part of Western culture, and certainly not one that should be legally enforced.

This comment that 'if you don't agree with out (or my) values then go home' goes against my values and what I regard to be Western values, if I had to identify such Western values.

"We never wore burqas here, and we do not oppress women... and we never will."

To say that we 'we do not oppress women... and we never will' in Western culture is IMO both absurd and irrelevent. It's absurd, and arrogantly so, because it attaches a white/black hat to western/non-Western culture. Even putting aside the fact that women are not treated perfectly in Western culture, the cultures which do 'oppress' women are extremist cultures. People single out Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia; well, they are extremist and do not properly represent Islamic culture at all; just as the Congo does not represent African culture, and Burma does not represent Asian or Eastern culture.

Western society is, generally, amazing when it comes to gender equality, but it shouldn't be forgotten that Switzerland only gave women the vote in the 70's (1975 I believe)-while Muslim nations such as Pakistan, Indonesia and Bangladesh have all had female leaders; until the late 80's, rape in marriage was legal in Australia; Ireland still bans abortion, and in the US there are moves in states to restrict or ban abortion. I'm not suggesting that Western society can be compared to Afghanistan, but we shouldn't pat ourselves on the back and talk about how well we treat women, and how we don't want that oppressive burqa in our society. Other cultures, Asian/Islamic etc..., don't oppress women (I'm not speaking of the nations I mentioned previously), because quite honestly, treating women well is not unique to Western culture. I could go on, but I will simply end this comment with by noting that we aren't and haven't always been angels, but part of the reason we are alot better than we once were, and will hopefully be even better in the future, is that generally speaking we aren't ideological and we are relatively wealthy.

It's also irrelevent because it comes down to definitons, and definitions vary. Quite frankly, if the burqa is banned, that to me would be oppressive as it would take of freedom of choice. You may disagree, but the point is that your interpretation of what is oppressive towards women differs from mine, and if you were to get your way, I would absolutely find that oppressive.

Also, to say that 'We never wore burqas here' as if to say that therefore it shouldn't be allowed is also highly questionable as alot of things mightn't have previously been done; that doesn't mean they can't be done in the future.

Finally, to say that the burqa is automatically or objectively oppressive is, quite simply, wrong. While many, or perhaps most women who wear it are oppressed, some are not. I know that from speaking to a number of Muslim women who wear or have worn the burqa. Most expressed distaste about it, however a few expressed fondness of it. To call these women oppressed would be ridiculous.

The problem that I have with those who wish to ban the burqa is that they speak on behalf of people they often don't even bother talking to. Most of the Muslim women I speak to are sick and tired of their clothes becoming a feminist and 'western values' football, and Sir GH, I would be curious as to 1)whether you have seen someone wearing a burqa, and 2)whether you've spoken to anyone who has. Somehow I doubt it.

Toronto has the highest concentration of Muslim residents of any city in North America - 1 in 20.  I'm pretty sure Sir GH has seen a burqa or two.

That said, Western cultures should be very, very careful about enacting policies against a minority largely to make the majority less likely to feel uncomfortable.  It's little more than rationalized racism.

@Amazon ...  Just read your post again more carefully (only had time for a quick skim previously) and just wanted to add that it was a great post with lots of interesting information and some great points.

Another great post by Amazon, I could not agree more. I think it's ridiculous to tell people what they have to wear in the streets. I do not believe that the burqua is much of a problem in Belgium or in France as much as Minaretts are not a problem in Switzerland. We have politicians (and the public in Switzerland) acting out against a problem they do not know how to handle: the lack of integration of Muslim people into the Western culture.

In Europe we have a rapidly growing minority of Muslims from Turkey or Arabia, many of whom do not respect the constitution of the country they moved into and are not willing to learn the language. We do not have an immigration history like the USA, Canada or Australia and we never set up sufficient rules for immigrants in our countries, that is true for many European countries. As a result there is a general helplessness in face of a minority who has a very different culture and simply refuses to fit into the Western ways. After decades of doing nothing laws like the ban of the Burqua do nothing to solve the problem but they only help to divide the country. We must find a way to reconcile the legitimate wishes of the majority , i.e. people should learn the language, get an education and work for their living rather than forming a parallel socitey and live off social security on a grand scale, with the legitimate rights of the minority to live in a way they see fit. It's a very tricky subject because racism is very close to our skins  - if we want to admit it or not.

It is very hard for the majority to take it that a fundamentalist minority among the immigrants denounces the Western culture in an uncompromising and radical way. While we have learnt to mask our fears and pretend that we are oh so tolerant, a minority of the Muslim immigrants are very loud in demanding that all their religious and cultural habits are respected by the country they moved into. Western artists who violate "Islam law" have to fear for their lives and have to be protected by the police when they appear in public.  Imams do not speak the language of the country they are teaching in but are imported from Turkey.  Women who wear normal Western clothing are shouted at in the streets by Muslim machos who think they can tell women what to do. While the majority of the Muslim population is not responsible for this they also do nothing to reassure the non-Muslims that they are law abiding citizens who respect the constitution more than the Islamic law. At the same time the non-Mulsims are torn between political correctness, i.e. not naming the problems for fear of being racists, and unreflected activism such as the Burqua ban which does notthing to improve the situation for Muslims or non-Muslims.

Amazon wrote:

Instead of treating religious and non-religious people as equal, you want to treat non-religious people as superior.

=============

they are.   people stop believing in easter bunny and santa when they are to only be 5 years old - mankind must be no different and should stop wasting time on organized 'religion'

spritualism and an acceptance of what is beyond our current humand understandings is good and a private thing that hurts no one but the institutions that hide behind religious should be outlawed forever.  fuck the Pope and fuck anyone on the earth in his position in different churches; they should all be against walls with bullets

Amazon wrote:

"Why does freedom of religion need to go? Are you saying that if I was living in your ideal society, I wouldn't be able to choose which religion I belonged to, or I couldn't belong to any?"

I don't necessarily frown upon organized religion, but it's not an essential ingredient in today's world if our goal as a people is to progress forward.  While I recognize that many good things have come in the name of religion (mind you, one good thing for every ten bad things), the religion itself isn't a necessary asset in creating that goodness.  All good in this world can be accomplished secularly without having the walls of religion to divide us from one another.  My ideal society would consist of people adhering to the customs of the land they are in.  They can believe in whatever they want to believe in as long as they don't break the law and/or basic codes of ethics that are seen as culturally acceptable by the majority - any part of which can be up for amendment, since things do evolve.

"Sir GH, I would be curious as to 1)whether you have seen someone wearing a burqa, and 2)whether you've spoken to anyone who has. Somehow I doubt it."

I live in Toronto, a city of great cultural plurality.  I've seen dozens of them, but admittedly I've never talked to one in person.  How can I just talk to one of them on the subway?  If I can't see their face, I have no idea if their face is an inviting one that would be open to spontaneous conversation.  This is why revealing one's face is such an important thing, and I maintain, a cornerstone of our culture.  Most of these people can't get jobs because most employers won't hire someone who hides their face (that, and many of them have husbands who won't let them get jobs to begin with).  I therefore never see them working in grocery stores, banks, or wherever I do my business in the course of my day.  So the opportunity to talk to one of them likely won't arise.

Would you want someone in a burqa to be your doctor?  Just picture yourself going through a difficult time due to bad health.  Would you not feel a sense of warmth from a good doctor whose face you can see smiling in encouragement?  Would you feel that same warmth from someone who refused to show you their face?  But it wouldn't happen anyway because most people would rather see a doctor whose face is visible.  No such doctor would be able to sustain a business in the western world, unless of course their clientele consisted primarily (or purely) of people of their cultural background.  So much for integrating into the culture of your new country, if that's the case.

You're right, making it illegal to wear the burqa would take away the freedom of choice from those who'd like to choose to do it, regardless of their reason or if they are oppressed in some way or not.  But there are plenty of places in the world where they can wear their burqa.  If they like the ways of their culture so much, why don't they stay in their country and practice what they do in a community where the majority embrace their ways?

I would never dream of going to another country and imposing my ways on those fine folks.  They have their culture, history, and customs.  If I don't like what I see there, then I'm welcome to go somewhere else that will be more welcoming of my ways.  One of the things that makes the world a beautiful place is that there is such a vast array of cultures and histories.  If every country would adopt every other country's ways, all countries would eventually become the same.  Travel would become a pointless exercise, and we would have little to learn from those who are different from us.  This is why I believe it's important for a country to properly balance maintaining its identity while being open to new things.

When my grandparents came to Canada in the 1950s, they didn't complain about the way things were here.  They learned to speak English, got jobs, and created lives for themselves - there was no alternative for these hundreds of thousands of people.  On their behalf it upsets me whenever we cave to the ways of those who come here.  When an immigrant student of a Canadian university receives free tuition from the government and gets expelled for refusing to take off their burqa and has the nerve to complain about it (it happened a couple months ago), they should board the next plane home.  It serves them right for biting the hand that feeds them.

You make many great points (both practically and philosophically), and this is turning into a great discussion.  But on the issue of the burqa it seems we just agree to disagree.

ugggh fuck the burga already, it is total pointless and childish reminder of outdated beliefs.

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