Rhye - Have there been any tracks so far that the 2001 JP remasters sound best to you? Again, this is your thread (and i haven't done any A/B/C/D-ing to make my own sonic conclusions)... just curious why it's seemingly HR or SC on all...
now, continuing the waveform review among the Peter Mew remasters:
The further on I go into this list, the more I’m realizing there’s just no pattern to it. These tracks clearly all have varying amounts of dynamic compression, range of peak levels, overall peak volume, limiting, EQing (though that’s difficult to see minor differences in the visual waveforms alone), and more. I have to believe it’s because PM is attentive to each track as a work of art unto itself, rather than that he’s inconsistent or careless. They’re all GOOD remasters… just a lot of variety in there.
Typically someone mastering an album for the first time is looking to facilitate the flow of songs artistically (with levels, fades, even how tracks transition), and some kind of sonic consistency, or at least enjoyable progression across the album, is desired as well. So, that’s another consideration here. The Crown Jewels were remastered in the context of their original album, in original sequence. 2001 Japan set were as well, but he was under direct orders to make them loud and punchy. Singles Collections are different since the tracks, being A and B sides, may stand on their own. That might have led him to adjust his work on them. (Forgive me if my rambling on this subject is boring or angering any of you – I find every aspect of the studio creations of Queen fascinating.) Would love to have a few drinks and a loooong discussion with Peter Mew over all this stuff… nevertheless…
SOMEBODY TO LOVE is a little unique, as Crown Jewels and Singles Collection versions have NO difference between their overall volume level. The SC, however, has a bit more compression, which brings the peaks of the song up to be more consistent throughout. The SC has a ceiling of about 85% of the CD’s volume capabilities, but the JP 2001 version goes right up (probably 98% or so). The JP and SC could be the same base remaster with volume boost being the only change.
GOOD OLD FASHIONED LOVER BOY is the first, so far, that the Singles Collection version is the quietest / least dynamically compressed. There’s clearly limiting going on, especially in the last 30 seconds of the track, but it’s just left to be very organic overall. The Crown Jewels version is beefed up slightly throughout, but there little overall volume level change. The big departure, again, is JP 2001… which appears to be the CJ remaster, boosted to the near limits of the CD audio level.
As an aside, I just discovered that there was a Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs release of ADATR (released in 1996, I believe.) Out of curiosity, I pulled up the waveforms for these two tracks to compare as well (though Peter Mew wasn’t involved, and MFSL’s claim is that sources are the ORIGINAL MASTERS, transferred at half-speed for supposedly better replication, and put onto Gold “ultra” discs for more accurate copies of the audio down to the molecular level). I thought the CJ remasters were conservative…wow. The MFSL versions have NO dynamic compression that I can tell, and they do sound great. If you’re a purist who greatly dislikes the compression on modern remasters… this is the version for you…
On to NOTW tracks:
WE WILL ROCK YOU: the CJ edition seems a very appropriate remaster to me – there’s dynamic compression to even out the levels throughout the track, but the chorus chant sections leap out at a slightly higher volume. Even that small amount of dynamic range is lost in the latter two PM remasters. In fact, the SC version’s overall peak level is even with the CJ verse peak level! Also, the SC is clearly the identical remaster as the JP 2001, only not boosted to the max of the CD’s volume limits. Relatively speaking, though, they are the same.
WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS: the CJ and JP 2001 versions are very similar. There are some peaks throughout that differ between the two, but overall – it appears these could easily be the same remaster with only slight adjustments. Actually, it appears the CJ has a tiny bit more dynamic compression on it. But both have the same overall peak level (maybe 90%) and the vast majority of the two waveforms match up. In fact, the SC version is a waveform match as well…but there is a reduction in volume level.
SHEER HEART ATTACK: The CJ is the least compressed here, though there’s clearly heavier compression on the last 33 seconds of the track or so (at about 2:52 to the end), and the peak volume is under 90%. SC version is more compressed, and actually slightly quieter in overall volume level than the CJ. The JP 2001 remaster appears to be identical to the SC version, except that it’s boosted another 5-10% on the CD in volume. Actually one of the more conservative JP remasters that I’ve seen here…
SPREAD YOUR WINGS: CJ has about 10% more dynamic range compared to the other two. The JP and SC add compression and are identical except the JP is boosted up in overall volume.
Honestly it’s very hard to know – by looking at visual amounts of compression alone – which of these sounds better to a given individual’s ears. When you LISTEN, you understand what compression does – whether it brings the drums out or adds presence to the guitar or other midrange instruments – sometimes it makes a song sound like a kick in the face (in a good way) and sometimes it can make things sound like they’re trapped in a storage bin that I’m sitting on – muffled, small, and distant. Compression isn’t a bad thing in and of itself. It’s a tool. A chisel can destroy art or create it… depending on the hands using it…and depending on the eyes beholding the end result, actually.
So far, the 2001 JLP remaster of Queen II, which I covered in an earlier post, beat out the 1991 HR remaster (with the exception of the later 2008 SC remastered tracks). I noticed, too, that I seem to be favouring the 1991 HR remasters at certain points in this examination, and it must be that they sound the most dynamic so far overall (to me). I did, however, also favour the 1998 CJ remaster for SHA and the 25th Anniversary remaster for ANATO, generally speaking.
I'm fascinated by this Gold Audiophile CD of A Day At The Races. I remember this series, as a friend had Meat Loaf's Bat Out Of Hell album and I remember Races and (I think) The Game or NOTW were available too, but sadly, I don't have them (they were like $60 or $70 in the '90s and I was a poor university student).
If you say this is a remaster that rivals the current ones, I should definately look at them. Track by Track, how would you compare it to the Races list I compiled in the previous post?
I know I started this thread, but I really want it to belong to everyone. The point is to get everyone's opinion and try to agree which masters/remasters of each song sound the best. My opinion is just one of many and I offer my lists up for scrutiny, agreement and disagreement as people see fit. I loved discussing My Fairy King, even though I couldn't hear the "glitch" I was told was there. I never said it wasn't there, just that I couldn't hear it. I want more such discussions and invite re-examinations of previously discussed albums. Just because I offer up a new list for a new album every few days, doesn't mean the discussion is over on the previous ones. My lists are offered just as a place to start discussions. In most cases, I only really examine my own choices immediately prior to or even AS I post the list, though the thoughts have often been floating around for a while before
Joe, your contributions are among my favourite in this thread, providing more analysis than I can offer. I thought when I started I'd be the only one posting, but it's great to see people get interested in the remastering process. I'll admit, prior to this thread, I didn't give it a heck of a lot of thought beyond noticing that certain releases sounded "better" than others. Many of these lists are brand new, made coherent out of my random thoughts for the first time.
Plus, it gives me a chance to really listen and appreciate each song as I go along.
The Mobile Fidelity CD Range also included A Night At The Opera, The Game & News Of The World.
Unfortunately I never picked up copies of these as I was happy with the 1991 HR's AND they cost more then twice as much!
Like Rhyeking says, they cost a small fortune now so I'm even less likely to get them :(
One release that needs to be mentioned is the 2003 HR/DTS Entertainment release of "The Game". As well as the amazing Surround mix, it also contains a PCM 96khz 24 bit stereo mix which was "mastered from the 1/4 inch original analogue mix master...."
I have to say that unless I'm in my car, I never listen to the stereo version of this album anymore - I always listen to the surround mix.
I own both DVD-As of Opera and The Game and they are stunning. I still prefer this surround mix of Opera over the 30th Anniversary DVD, even though I know "God Save the Queen" was not mixed into surround using the master tape, because at the time they couldn't find it (turns out the master was on the same tape as the master of "Procession.")
I didn't bring these or any of the surround mixes into the discussion because, in my mind, they are an entirely seperate beast and the selections are pretty limited (two studio albums and two Video Hits DVDs).
Well, I think it's safe to say there isn't much we can do with Flash Gordon, beyond selecting the best remaster of the entire album. I can't contribute much to that because I so far only own the 1991 HR version. The only other remasters are the 1994 Digital Master Series and the 2001 Japan LP Reproductions.
I wasn't going to bring up Greatest Hits, because there are several to choose from and with the recent Singles Collections we could pretty well recreate the entire track listing with those remasters as well.
We covered Hot Space too, so that takes us to The Works:
01) Radio Ga Ga (2009 SC)
02) Tear It Up (2009 SC)
03) It's Hard Life (2009 SC)
04) Man On The Prowl (2010 SC)
05) Machines (2009 SC)
06) I Want To Break Free (1991 HR)
07) Keep Passing The Open Windows (2010 SC)
08) Hammer To Fall (1994 DMS)
09) Is This The World We Created...? (2009 SC)
bonus tracks
10) I Go Crazy (2009 SC)
11) Thank God It's Christmas (2010 SC)
12) Radio Ga Ga (Instrumental) (1984 OM)*
13) Machines (Instrumental) (1992 BOT)**
* This version hasn't seen proper remaster, as far as I know.
** This WAS remastered for the Box Of Trix set in 1992, though I don't know by whom or where.
Agreed on those you've skipped over, and love that The Works has such diversity in best versions. Can you describe what it is about IWTBF's HR version that makes it your choice over other remasters?
thanks for your comments on my posts as well, rhyeking. it's a pleasure to share my thoughts here. check your pm's too, btw.
Here are my overviews of the Peter Mew remasters from Jazz:
BICYCLE RACE: first we have the Singles Collection version... coming in at just under 90% peak volume, and very little compression to be seen. The CJ and JP 2001 are identical - even down to their track length - both clock in at 3:03:506 exactly! They have dynamic compression throughout to fill the waveforms in for more consistent levels.
IN ONLY SEVEN DAYS: same as above... SC version is uncompressed (or very minimally so) and left with a dynamic range you can really see. The CJ and JP 2001's are identical - not in their exact track lengths, but the waveforms are twins, complete with more evening dynamic compression.
DON'T STOP ME NOW: also the same as above... SC version is clearly under some volume limiting (most notably at places like 2:12 and 2:43 where the sound spectrum is fuller with things like Roger's drum fills) but it's not squashed down to the point where all parts of the song are at the same level. The CJ and JP versions (again identical) are pretty extremely compressed. From :33 to 3:07 in the track, the waveforms are basically squared off across the tops and bottoms. There are a few peaks that stick out here and there, but this baby is only a couple of cranks away from the Bob Ludwig job on AG.
Now, PM said he thinks the CJ or JP were used for SC, but on this album's tracks - they're both the same and the SC is CLEARLY done from scratch... ultimately, for me, the concern rests with the results (which in this case I can SEE) and not the remembered history (which is irrelevant when you have results!)...
also, just for the heck of it, i did a sonic test of FLASH'S THEME just now - between the HR, JP, and SC remasters. Clearly the JP and SC were louder, but to my ears - the winner was JP 2001. SC was good, but actually a little bassy compared to the JP 2001. All instruments are clearly discernable yet well-blended and balanced...
The HR remaster of IWTBF sounds the most well balanced to me. I don't have the waveforms to look at, but the 2001 JLP sounds like the drums were cranked too high in places and some of the subtly gets lost on the lower end synths (which John, in the single version, gives more dominance).
The 1994 DMS remaster of HTF is punchier, which works for the song and gives it the presence it needs to compete with the Singles Collections remasters used on a lot of the other tracks.
The "Radio Ga Ga" and "Machines" Instrumentals are just screaming for a proper, thorough Peter Mew remaster, in my opinion (screaming for it, I say!). In some ways I prefer the Instrumental of RGG to the Extended Version.
@rhye: when you use a term like "well-balanced" to descibe why a remaster sounds best to you... i think we're very much in the same camp of sonic tastes. =) I want a song to be punchy, but it needs to have brilliant treble just as prominently as it does thumping, full bass. And the mids! don't scoop out the EQ, people! You know what's in the mids? Just electric guitar, snare drum, VOCALS... It's all got to be there. I don't want any instruments to get lost in the compression.
Would love to hear some of the really ROCKIN Queen tracks to get remastered this way. I was hoping for more from Gimme The Prize and Princes of the Universe on SC, actually. I almost think on those kinds of full-on rockers, with SO many tracks in the recording, they'd be served well to have a remix / remaster. I think they could tear your face off if balanced properly. =)
thanks for your additional thoughts, rhye... helps me know i can trust your opinions that much more...
Okay, while I wait to receive a transfer, here is The Best Remasters - Queen Rocks Edition.
It's easy to do the two Greatest Hits albums, because they've been remastered several different times and most recently the Singles Collection accounts for almost all the tracks, if not all the versions, on both. But, as I sit listening to my original 1997 copy of Queen Rocks, which used mostly the 1994 DMS remasters, I find myself thinking we can improve on this! "Sheer Heart Attack" and "It's Late" alone almost completely lose thier drum sound in places.
So, here's my look at Queen Rocks, track by track:
01) We Will Rock You (2008 SC)
02) Tie Your Mother Down (2008 SC)
03) I Want It All (Rocks Version) (1997 QR)*
04) The Seven Seas Of Rhye (2008 SC)
05) I Can't Live With You (1997 Rocks Retake)*
06) Hammer To Fall (1994 DMS)
07) Stone Cold Crazy (1998 CJ)
08) Now I'm Here (2008 SC)
09) Fat Bottomed Girls (1991 HR)
10) Keep Yourself Alive (2008 SC)
11) Tear It Up (2009 SC)
12) One Vision (1991 HR)
13) Sheer Heart Attack (2008 SC)
14) I'm In Love With My Car (Rocks Version) (1997 QR)*
15) Put Out The Fire (2009 SC)
16) Headlong (1991 OM)
17) It's Late (1991 HR)
18) No-One But You (1999 GH3)**
* These tracks, in these versions, only exist on this compilation, except for "I Want It All," whose Rocks Version also appears on Stone Cold Classics, but appears to be the same 1997 version.
** The version on Greatest Hits 3 sounds pretty much the same at the original 1997 master, but a bit louder. It may well be the same master, but with the volume increased. Hard to say.
Rhye - your ears are good... I just ripped NOBY from my platinum collection (which is actually a 2002 re-do of GH 1-3, not that any masters or remasters were changed) and Queen Rocks...and your guess was right on.
The remasters are IDENTICAL..but Rocks is boosted to the peak capacity of the CD and the GH3 is leveled off at 87% or so...
and as a quick addition: NOW I'M HERE (live) from the two versions I have (SC or JP remasters)... they are IDENTICAL too...
Good to know my hearing and perception is still intact, that years of listening to that devil music known as Rock And Roll hasn't rotted my brain.
And my NOBY post should read the other way around, that the Queen Rocks version is louder than the GH3 version. I was typing quickly at the end of the post and mixed the two up. either way, I prefered the GH3 version and now I know why, it wasn't maxing out the CD as you describe the QR version as doing. And it makes sense that QR is a louder disc, it's a collection of their most out and out rockers and Brian promoted it as some to crank up in your car while driving. Subtly was not a priority.
And I believe Kevin Metcalfe was responsible for both mastering jobs.
No, onto something of a pedantic nature...
Fat Bottomed Girls (Single Version) first appeared on Hollywood Records release in 2004, with the GH:WWRY Ed. (believe it or not, it never appeared in the 1991/1992 series of HR remasters, where the Album Version is used on the Red Greatest Hits). It was used again on Stone Cold Queen and again on The A-Z Of Queen Volume 1. I'm curious whether each release used the 2001 Peter Mew remaster. No mastering credits appear on SCC or AZ1 to tell us.
Also, Joe, as I don't own the Platinum Collection (I saw no point as I have the Gold Collection and GH3) , but does it give any mastering credits on Hits 1 and 2? The Gold Collection doesn't credit the mastering of either, strangely.
Riding high on the Jays beating the Yankees in extra innings (FIFA what?), I thought I'd update the thread.
I was able to get a copy of the elusive MFSL remaster of ADATR, talked about earlier, and it is quite stunning to hear. I agree with Joe's post and am revising my position on the Races album.
00) A Day At The Races Fanfare* (1996 MSFL)
01) Tie Your Mother Down (Single Version) (2008 SC)
02) You Take My Breath Away (1996 MSFL)
03) Long Away (1996 MSFL)
04) The Millionaire Waltz (1996 MSFL)
05) You And I (2008 SC)
06) Somebody To Love (2008 SC)
07) White Man (2008 SC)
08) Good Old-Fashioned Lover Boy (2008 SC)
09) Drowse (1996 MSFL)
10) Teo Torriate (2006 High Definition Mix)**
The recent Singles Collection remasters definately give the MSFL a run for their money! The Hollywood Records remaster is still excellent, but this gold MSFL disc? Nice and rich.
@ rhye... no mastering/remastering credits in Platinum Collection liner notes booklet... copyright years and lots of publishing info, though...
