[QUOTE]rhyeking wrote: Okay, just when you thought we were finished...well, think again!
We looked at Live Killers, but Queen have had a few live releases in addition to that. So, here we go...
Live Magic: I own only the original 1987 release, which sounds alright. Does anyone have more than one edition who can make a comparison?
[/QUOTE]
I own the original CD release and the Japan remaster if it helps [QUOTE] Live At Wembley '86:
The original 1992 master was incomplete, believe it or not. I first noticed the discrepency watching the VHS release (also incomplete). "Tutti Frutti" on the original release is editted for some odd reason. The reprise at the end is absent. The VHS features the complete version (of that song, but is missing about half the rest of the concert...oh well).
The 2003 re-issue and remaster features the complete concert and sounds much cleaner to me. My vote is that the 2003 remaster is the current best version (and you get a few bonus tracks; always a treat).
Known remasters: 1994 Digital Master Series 2001 Japan Digital Remasters 2003 "Live At Wembley" Remaster
[/QUOTE]
Well to be honest I always considered "Live at Wembley '86" and "Live At Wembley Stadium" two completely different releases of the same album :-) And maybe it's worth mentioning that the 2003 release had in some countries bonus tracks from other '86 concerts, the European release (and the Japan release) feature only the Wembley concert.
[QUOTE]
Queen At The Beeb/Queen At The BBC: In the UK, this was released in 1989 on Band Of Joy Records, as Queen At The Beeb, and some could argue against it's inclusion in the Queen pantheon of original releases. In 1995, Hollywood Records released it's own version (same tracks), remastered, titled Queen At The BBC. To US listeners it was a legit, official release (before you argue, remember that the UK got Live Magic and the US didn't! Should the US audiences still consider LM a full member? Answer: they're both legit...deal with it!)
So, what's to say about these? I own Queen At The Beeb, the 1989 UK release. I bought it 1993 or 1994, before the HR re-issue. When 1995 saw the US release, I looked at it and said, "Hmm, I've got this already" and being a poor university student, I didn't buy it. So, I can't say how the 1995 remasters stand up. I CAN say that for some tracks, the remasters don't end there. Observe...
01) My Fairy King (1996 EMI Remaster)* 02) Keep Yourself Alive (1998 CJ)** 03) Doing Alright (1996 EMI)* 04) Liar (1996 EMI)* 05) Ogre Battle (1989 OM) 06) Great King Rat (1989 OM) 07) Modern Times Rock And Roll (1989 OM) 08) Son And Daughter (1989 OM) bonus track: 09) We Will Rock You (Fast Version) (2002 Sun Promo Master)***
* These three tracks appeared on the 1996 "Let Me Live" CD single #1, but as Queen At The Beeb, to my knowledge, was NOT part of the Digital Master Series in 1994 in the UK, these must be unique remasters (or unique Original Masters, if you insist Band Of Joy Records' master isn't official enough).
** Curiously, like the Long Lost Re-take of KYA, the 1st Session BBC Version of KYA was remastered by the mighty Peter Mew exclusively for the Crown Jewels Promo Sampler CD single. So, that entire session saw a full remaster over two different points (OR, is it possible that PM did the entire session [or the entire album?] either for the then-forthcoming Crown Jewels boxed set or for another reason?) . Either way, two single releases, each on opposite sides of the Atlantic, gave us a few alternate remasters after the Hollywood Records one.
*** Yup, just to make your brain hurt a bit more, this counts too. The infamous "We Will Rock You" Sun Promo CD single from 2002 features the only other official release of a BBC track (technically half the track, as the first half [the "stomp, stomp, clap" portion] is absent, but as the full version [like the full version of "Ogre Battle"] has not seen an official release, we're left to deal with what we have here). It's mentioned here as a bonus track, so don't sweat if you don't feel like including it, as it wasn't part of the original release.
Known (re)masters: 1989 Original Master (Band Of Joy Records) 1995 Hollywood Records 1996 EMI Remaster (MFK, DA & Liar) 1998 Crown Jewels Remaster (KYA) 2002 Sun Promo Master (WWRY)
And you thought we were past the interesting parts! Shame on you! :-) [/QUOTE]
Can somebody compare the Sun Promo version of WWRY with the version which I shared here some time ago ? I personally prefer the version I shared, which is quite strange since a professional release should sound better :-)
rhyeking · Member since
This brings up an interesting point, which is that even though I own vinyl LP copies of every Queen album and all the older live albums, I haven't really engaged in an out-and-out comparison of the LPs verses the various remasters. This was partly because the thread was centered on the remasters and partly because my record player died long ago and I haven't replaced it yet.
It seems, based on your analysis, Joe, that different remasters and the different people who do them either aim for a certain result or, by their particular ear, try to achieve what they think is the optimal balance.
For example:
The 2001 Japan Digital Remasters Series wanted an "extreme" range. The 1997 Queen Rocks album mastering ramped up the volume overall The 2009 Absolute Greatest remaster is "pumped full of steroids" The various Hollywood Records remasters seem to me to at least be trying to achieve the best overall sound (richness, texture), but aim for improved clarity throughout, as well. Peter Mew's newest Singles Remasters seem to be trying improve the clarity and keep it at a highest dynamic range.
I look forward to your continued analysis of the different remasters and can't wait to read the the conclusions you glean in this thesis!
joesilvey · Member since
rhyeking wrote:
It seems, based on your analysis, Joe, that different remasters and the different people who do them either aim for a certain result or, by their particular ear, try to achieve what they think is the optimal balance.
............................................................................................................................................................... Exactly - and well said.
I'd also alter your 2001 JP example slightly:
The 2001 Japan Digital Remasters Series wanted a more "extreme" amount of dynamic compression
Agree with these:
The 1997 Queen Rocks album mastering ramped up the volume overall The 2009 Absolute Greatest remaster is "pumped full of steroids" =) The various Hollywood Records remasters seem to me to at least be trying to achieve the best overall sound (richness, texture), but aim for improved clarity throughout, as well. Peter Mew's newest Singles Remasters seem to be trying improve the clarity and keep it at a highest dynamic range.
now, as i've said before, i can enjoy and appreciate the AG remastering for what it is. It's nice to have those tracks stand up strong next to songs that were just mastered this year. But I really appreciate the approach PM took with the SC, too, for a more balanced result. The MFSL versions i now have are also wonderful as they preserve the relative volumes much more than typical remasters do. Two voices are twice as loud as one voice - hmm, what a concept!
rhyeking · Member since
Re: Wembley
I guess I consider "Live At Wembley Stadium" a re-issue of "Live At Wembley '86." I suppose it's fair to look at them as two seperate releases, but we still arrive at the same location. It's much like the "Queen At The Beeb" and "Queen At The BBC." No matter how we look at it, it's the same material.
And "Live At Wembley Stadium" is the complete concert. "Wembley '86" still has the "Tutti Fruit" edit.
I thought every territory got the bonus tracks on the 2003 release. Is that not the case?
Re: Beeb/BBC
A good friend fired me off a copy of the 1995 HR Queen At The BBC and I'm re-evaluting my position on The Best Remaster. It also may be that the "Let Me Live" CD single used the 1995 HR remasters (they certainly used the same artwork). Furthermore, it could well be that the 1995 HR remaster of KYA BBC is what appears on the CJ Promo CD. They sound very similar.
I don't know how your copy WWRY BBC sounds,Pittrek, the bootleg copy I have of the full version (slow+fast) sounds way to high-end dominant. There's not much middle or low end presence at all. The official release of the Fast section could use a little more high end (but this could be my ear being used to the unofficial version), but the mid- and low-range are accounted for.
joesilvey · Member since
Here’s a summary of the tracks I did waveform analyses for, among the (3) versions of Peter Mew’s remastering work.
L to R, classified in order of least dynamic compression and volume boosting to most.
Keep Yourself Alive JP-2001 CJ-1998 SC-2008 Son And Daughter CJ-1998 JP-2001 SC-2008
The Seven Seas of Rhye CJ-1998 JP-2001 SC-2008
Killer Queen CJ-1998 SC-2008 JP-2001 Now I’m Here CJ-1998 (JP-2001 / SC-2008)*
Death On Two Legs CJ-1998 SC-2008 JP-2001 Bohemian Rhapsody (CJ-1998 / SC-2008)*** JP-2001 You’re My Best Friend CJ-1998 SC-2008 JP-2001 ’39 CJ-1998 SC-2008 JP-2001
Somebody To Love CJ-1998 SC-2008 JP-2001 Good Old Fashioned Lover Boy SC-2008 (CJ-1998 / JP-2001)**
We Will Rock You CJ-1998 (SC-2008 / JP-2001)** We Are The Champions (SC-2008 / JP-2001 / CJ-1998) all three of these very similar Sheer Heart Attack CJ-1998 SC-2008 JP-2001 Spread Your Wings CJ-1998 (SC-2008 / JP-2001)**
Bicycle Race SC-2008 (CJ-1998 / JP-2001)* In Only Seven Days SC-2008 (CJ-1998 / JP-2001)* Don’t Stop Me Now SC-2008 (CJ-1998 / JP-2001)*
Now I’m Here (live) xx-xxxx (JP 2001 / SC-2008)*
Play The Game CJ-1998 (SC-2009 / JP-2001)** Another One Bites The Dust CJ-1998 (SC-2009 / JP-2001)** Crazy Little Thing Called Love SC-2009** CJ-1998 / JP-2001** Save Me CJ-1998** JP-2001 / SC-2009**
* identical remasters in waveform and peak volume level ** identical remasters in waveform but boosted peak volume level in the latter *** identical remasters in waveform and peak volume level, but CJ contains prevalent tape hiss and low-frequency hum, and SC does not. JP 2001 also contains hiss/hum.
As a Queen fan who admires ALL their work, I still favor certain tracks over others. My hope, in this long-winded look through the above list, is that some of you out there can use this as a template to guide what you seek of Queen remasters and why – driven above all by your own personal taste for the varying sonic results.
joesilvey · Member since
And as an additional sidebar to my previous updated SHA analysis to include the original vinyl, I’ve read recently that the 180-gram vinyl remasters are more compressed and digital-sounding, so if anyone is considering the purchase thinking you’d be buying the now out-of-print original masters of the albums, the audio is apparently modernized (to some degree)… makes you wonder what's the point of the vinyl issues if they don't differ from the digital / CD remaster releases!?
rhyeking · Member since
Outstanding, Joe!
I'm copying that list for my notes, with full credit to you for the hard work. It's exactly the kind of thing I'll refer too. Are you planning to continue with the rest of the '80s tracks? You're under no obligation, but I'm sure I'm not alone in saying we'd appreciate it here.
As for your addititional post, I suspected that these vinyl re-issues would be updated. Vinyl today is a curious thing and I'm sure we could do a whole thread on the topic, but here are some of my thoughts.
In the early to mid '90s, vinyl was dead. Deader than corduroy! It seemed CDs had finally overtaken them as the contemporary medium for music. For the general public, CDs sounded better, were easier to transport, maintain, use and play in your car. How could a vinyl record compete with that? Well, they couldn't and nearly everyone sold off their records in garage and yard sales by the milk crate load. Fortunately for me, they were selling them cheap. After all, who wanted records when you could buy CDs?
The answer: I did.
Now, don't get me wrong. I was not then, nor am I now, a vinyl elitist. Not by a long shot. I'm much more pragmatic. In the early '90s I was just getting in to classic rock. I've told part of this story on other threads, but at the time when Grunge was king, I needed something different. I hated Grunge and still think a lot of it is self-indulgent bullshit. I didn't hate my parents or my school or lifem so what Nirvana and Pearl Jam were selling, I wasn't buying (literally or figurtively). This didn't make particularly popular in school, but that wasn't a problem either as I was working in theatre and mostly with adults; adults who listened to classic rock. After some exposure to it, I found that these were the bands and artists for me! The Who, Led Zepplin, The Rolling Stones, The Guess Who, Rush, Meat Loaf, Bruce Springsteen and of course Queen were what I fell in love with (to name a few).
And my timing was perfect, as I cycled around my small town on weekend, there were always a few yard sales going on. Whole bins of great music on vinyl. LPs for days! And dirt freakin' cheap: $1 each, or 50 cents or 3 for a $1. They were practically giving them away and since I was not actually making money working in theatre, those were the prices for me! So, I commandeered my parents' old record player from the basement, hooked it up to my stereo system and let the inexpensive greatness wash over me. I educated myself on bands and artists. This was before the internet, so there was NO wikipedia or fan page for anything. I had to do honest-to-God reading of books.
The best education was putting that old LP of Who's Next or Queen II on and rocking out while my peers lamented that everything smelled teen spirit and that Jeremy spoke in class today (I still don't like Grunge). Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells sent my imagination soaring in a way C+C Music Factory never could (I also don't like '90s Dance Music).
I still own those records, probably all of them first pressings. And for Queen, ALL are the original pressings and original masters (I sound like a douche saying something like that, but I mention it only to point out my perspective, not to sound like my record collection kicks ass [it doesn't]).
So, as I was saying, this was the era when vinyl was breathing its last.
Then came the dark times. Then came the Loudness Wars!
That's right, record companies wanted LOUDER! Fill that CD was as much sound as possible. Screw subtly. Kids today want deafening! Well, that caused some people to reject CDs and the good thing for them was that MP3s were now possible. Throw out your old mix tapes, kids, you can burn your own CDs! Napster fueled the fire and sacrificed itself so that other file-sharing software could rise from its ashes. No longer was musis bound by a physical medium and songs were interchangable. A whole generation of kids now do not understand the base premise or purpose of an album. Why, they ask, do the songs need to be in this order? They have 100,000 songs on their iPod, who cares WHEN they were recorded?!
For a time, all seemed lost in the great nebulous cloud of music. What did it all mean? So many songs...
CD sales plummeted. They still haven't recovered and probably never will, now that iTunes reigns supreme (but for how long...?). Yet, a curiuos thing began to wriggle and squirm under the weight of so much disconnected and discordant sonic information. That thing was nostalgia. It rises it's head every generation and casts its gaze into the past just as pop culture seems to not know what to do with itself. Nostalgia spoke of better, simpler times when music was shaped and crafted by artists who had a vision the kids now lacked. Records, on vinyl, were the stuff of a by-gone age, but...Lo! What's this sitting on the shelf of Sunrise Records and HMV? A record! An honest-to-goodness LP. And not just one, but many! Great and clear images and artwork beckoned the lost souls, whose iPods buzzed tinnily in their ears.
And the people bought them and started to re-learn what was almost lost to a generation: Albums were good. Albums were works of art, greater than the sum of their songs.
Albums, be they on vinyl or CD or cassette, were clawing their way back.
Yet, some records were "improved." Remastered by the industry in order to give the listener wants the record company thinks this generation wants. I don't know if it is a blessing or a curse that certain new vinyl reproductions are presented this way. I don't know if this generation knows or cares that what they are getting is not the original sound as heard by their parents and grandparents. We live in interesting times and all we can do make them understand and allow them to decide.
cmsdrums · Member since
This is such a great thread - cheers guys!
It does make me wonder what Brian would make of all this, and whether he has an opinion on the 'best' remasters? I do remember him posting a very long soapbox article years ago when one of the heavy vinyl repressings of ADATR was released, and he went into technical details about the depth of groove of the vinyl, and how the techniques used on this version differed from the mastering and manufacturing processes on the original, and so he is obviously very clued up on exactly the sort of things we (you!) are talking about here. It may be worth digging out his post about that to see if it is of any help??
Cheers again
Toozeup · Member since
Brian and Roger were both heavily involved with the 1994 digital remasters so I always presumed these to be pretty definitive but the majority of fans on here appear to be from the US so it's hard to compare to the hollywood remasters. I own 1994 DM & 2001 Japanese remasters of Queen I, Queen II & Sheer Heart. I personally prefer the 1994 DM series for all three as they seem to have a more balanced sound. The 2001 remasters are good transfers but there is too much limiting in places and I find the overall bass presentation urealistic, it just sounds too heavy. I have Shear Heart Attack on vinyl as well and this compares much more favourably to the 1994 DM.
rhyeking · Member since
Hi, Tooze, a pleasure to see some new faces jumping right into the deep end!
The DMS are the releases I know the least about. I only have maybe a couple dozen songs on different releases, so all I've been able to judge are those individual tracks and not full albums. I did give each track a listen as I worked on this thread and though they were decent, they always came up a few degrees behind the HR and SC remasters. That isn't to say they're bad, by no means are they, and there is a certain amount of subjectivity to it (what sounds good to person may not to another).
When I reach my recap post, I'll talk about the different remasters' pros and cons from my point of view (the HR remasters aren't perfect either).
joesilvey · Member since
btw, Rhye - thanks for your compliments on my wave analyses... it's the kind of thing that would be about as fun as watching paint dry for most, but I absolutely LOVE it. Thanks to a friend supplying a couple more JP remasters I'm currently missing, i will be able to continue my reviews into the 80's albums. Since Crown Jewels stops at The Game, i'll shift over at this point and begin comparisons among the Hollywood 1991 Remasters, JP 2001, and Singles Collection versions.
Might you create list for me again, starting with Hot Space, that lists the tracks from each album that are identical edits / mixes among those three releases? (for HS, TW, AKOM, and TM). I think I'd be able to get it straight, but two heads on the job is better than one to ensure accuracy. =)
actually, i may dip into looking at the Greatest Hits I, II, and III (platinum) and I (WWRY ed.) or even AG if I find too much similarity or disparity among the main three sources. Might you list those that are original album versions on those as well? Hope i'm not asking too much...
Thanks in advance. here's to scrutiny!
rhyeking · Member since
As requested...
2001 or 2009 or 2010 remasters Album Versions "Football Fight" "Staying Power" "Body Language" "Put Out The Fire" "Calling All Girls" "Life Is Real" "Las Palabras De Amor" "Cool Cat" "Under Pressure" "Radio Ga Ga" "Tear It Up" "It's A Hard Life" "Man On The Prowl" "Machines" "Keep Passing the Open Windows" "Is This The World We Created...?" "A Kind Of Magic" "One Year Of Love" "Friends Will Be Friends" "Gimme The Prize" "Don't Lose Your Head" "Princes Of The Universe" "The Invisible Man" "Breakthru" "Scandal" "Hang On In There"*
* Yeah, this is under Album Versions even though it's a bonus track on the CD. That bonus track differs slightly from the B-side Version, which fades out earlier. And the "Album Version" is what appears (incorrectly) on the Singles Collection 3.
Single Versions: "Flash" "Back Chat (Re-Mix)" "I Want To Brak Free (Single Remix)" "Hammer To Fall (Headbanger's Edit)" "One Vision (Single Version)" "Pain Is So Close To Pleasure (Single Remix)" "Who Wants To Live Forever (Single Version)" "I Want It All (Single Version)"
Non-Album Tracks: "Soul Brother" "I Go Crazy" "Thank God It's Christmas" "Blurred Vision" "A Dozen Red Roses For My Darling" "Forever" "Stealin'" "Hijack My Heart" "My Live Has Been Saved"
Did I miss anything?
Toozeup · Member since
Just a quick note, The DMS series only covers albums Queen (s/t) - The works. I gues they deemed the masters beyond the work fine as they were all digitally mixed anyway.
rhyeking · Member since
Oh, right on, Tooze!
See, I never would have known that!
It should have been obvious really, looking at the Digital Master Sampler track listing:
“Liar” “Funny How Love Is (Digital Master Sampler Version)” “In The Lap Of The Gods…Revisted (Digital Master Sampler Edit)” “Lily Of The Valley (Digital Master Sampler Version)” “I’m In Love With My Car” “ ‘39” “You Take My Breath Away” “Spread Your Wings” “Mustapha” “Get Down, Make Love (Live Killers - Digital Master Sampler Version)” “Dragon Attack” “The Hero” “Staying Power” “Keep Passing The Open Windows”
This also means that Queen Rocks only uses the DMS versions on the songs from those albums, except for "I'm In Love With My Car (Rocks Version)" which is an exclusive version. The other tracks, those not exclusive versions, must be from their Original Masters. Interesting.
Also interesting, the Wikipedia entry on The Platinum Collection says that US and Canadian release of the boxed set, released in 2002, features the Japanese 2001 Digital Remaster Series versions of Hits 1 & 2.
Take a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Platinum_Collection_(Queen_album)#Track_listing
Now, Joe, you said previously that you have The Platinum Collection. Can you verify this? Don't go track by track. I think a random sampling of a few tracks would suffice to confirm the validity of the statement (only if you want to, no pressure).
joesilvey · Member since
For the sake of a quick reply, I just looked at the waveforms of (3) songs from my Platinum Collection disc 1 and their JP 2001 remaster counterparts:
Bohemian Rhapsody - PLAT is 10% quieter than JP in peak volume, shelved off by some kind of limiter. low-freq. hum that appears on the JP remaster is NOT on the PLAT version.
Don't Stop Me Now - PLAT is close to the same peak volume, but JP remaster has slightly more extreme compression / limiting.
Play The Game - PLAT is 15% quieter with quite a bit less compression.
... by this sample, could both these releases have come from the same remasters? sorry, random wikipedia contributor... don't think so...
