I didn't mean all of roger's stuff is flat....like I said in another thread. 'you had to be there' is an awsome track and i guess everyone has their limits. for some anything past the first 7 or 8 Queen albums is crap. I like albums post The Game, but only in spots, Aside From Innuendo, which is an overall great album...... the same for their solo albums. only in spots. Except for Barcelona. I guess the Happiness vs ANATO comment from thomas is what had me laughing.
rhyeking wrote: Apples and oranges, Mike.
Part of why numeric ratings systems don't work is because they don't account for fundamental differences between works. This also demonstrates why comparing such works to each other is also a flawed practice.
Citizen Kane is a masterpiece. So is The Seven Samurai. Yet, they are so fundamentally different that merely looking at a ?/10 rating is grossly misleading.
The reviews explain that people love the album for it's meditative qualities, that it's perfect for certain moods. Sometimes folks aren't in the mood for ANATO, so they relax with H?. For them, for that purpose, it is perfect. There's nothing "Stepford" about it, if I understand your meaning of the word. Expecting people to appreciate nothing other than a bona fide masterpiece is like saying we should never read comics when there are art galleries to visit. It fails to acknowledge that both have different intentions, were crafted differently and represent unique points of view. Ultimately, the audience comes away with a different experience.
Of course apples and oranges, sometimes i rather listen to hot space instead of A night At The opera, but i still have the common sense too know which album is better.
I know what you're saying, Mike, but if Roger wasn't trying to make another ANATO it stands to reason that H? was not going to equal it. That's why I don't like comparing albums, because there's no single yardstick against which to measure them. For some, Happiness? is great for what it is, even if it's not as commercial.
Anyway...
How did we even get on this? Hilarious, isn't it?
Comics are to art galleries as, say, rock and roll is to symphony. ANATO isn't symphony, and Happiness certainly isn't either. So they are both rock and roll records with generally similar purposes and generally similar sonic space to work within. It is perfectly predictable that the culture might make critical judgments that elevate and sustain the artistic value of one over time, and relegate the other one to bargain bins and super fans and fan forums. In the aggregate it's the equivalent of 9 or 10/10 (exceptional) vs 6 or 7/10 (somewhere in the vast middle). The number of people who would choose to be stranded with Happiness? on a desert island are going to be overwhelmingly outnumbered by those who would bring ANATO, given one choice. So while you might not find value in comparing records (or value in admitting it on a forum in the interest of common sense), a large majority of the rest of the world likely does.
GF, you completely missed my point about art galleries and comics, but I'll let that go.
I'm really more curious about the stance you've taken that popularity and commercial viability determine artistic value. Are you saying you believe that the only creative works worth appreciating are those which a society has deemed sufficiently reflective of the culture's most broadly defined nature?
If so...wow.
Of course artistic value does not always guarantee commercial and cultural success, and commercial and cultural success sometimes come without much artistic value. But time usually sorts that out to a degree and things that endure more often than not have endured for a reason, and things that haven't also haven't for a reason, thought not completely without exception. I think it's pretty clear that ANATO and Happiness? followed their respective paths to classic status and near oblivion because in this case all was right with the universe and everything was as it should be. It doesn't mean Taylor's work doesn't have value, even superior value to some people, it just means on balance and to most people ANATO is the superior album. For the same reason my son's fingerpaintings in non toxic and delicious chocolate and vanilla pudding from 1998 are never going to be pinned up next to the Mona Lisa, no matter how much they mean to me personally.
Me having to reexplain points that were clear in the first place because you feel the need to extrapolate them where they obviously weren't meant to go is probably pretty boring for everybody else to read. Next time you feel the need to end some reply to me in any form of ....Really? or ....wow. or.....Seriously? why don't you PM me so we don't waste other people's time.
And I didn't miss your point about comics and art galleries, you just can't seem to consistently draw analogies that actually apply in a sensible way to the argument you're trying to make. Not my fault.
Obviously we aren't clear if the other person's argument comes across as specious. I think we're both guilty of appearing so, despite our best efforts and genuine sincerity. It comes from fundamentally different perspectives.
Speaking broadly to the forums at large, it also doesn't help anyone when less-then-constructive comments are issued by any individual in a thread. That's the point where things get adversarial. I'm man enough to admit I've been guilty of it from time to time (issung unconstructive criticism) while at the same time taking others to task for it. We all lose out on worthwhile discussions when the comments shift the topic to the quality of the posts.
I could go on, but I think you get what I'm saying.
Anyway, GF, I apologize for any hard feelings.
