Errm, where did that come from, and what in the name of bob are you talking about?
The Real Wizard · Member since
GratefulFan wrote:
[QUOTE]They are in the past, not being rained down on present day children who aren't believed by their parents! You're completely and totally making that up.[/QUOTE]
You can't possibly speak for every single family and know unequivocally that there still aren't pious parents who reject their kids' horror stories out of blind faith. From personal experience, I know they still exist.
[QUOTE]Those things are a source of meaning and pride to me, not some kind of 'crutch'. It means I probably went to particular schools, and had a particular set of experiences that can be instantly communicated and shared with others with the simple words "I'm Catholic".[/QUOTE]
To me it sounds like you're saying "I used to be catholic," or "I used to do catholic things." Thus it definitely isn't a crutch for you. If I stopped playing baseball 15 years ago, I wouldn't call myself a baseball player. But hey, to each their own.
[QUOTE]You clearly don't have the first clue about why a lot of people embrace their faith.[/QUOTE]
I may not be an expert, but I certainly do know a thing or two about the psychology of belief vs evidence. Most people feel the need to believe in something outside of themselves, and most of them grab onto a religion, usually because they were raised to. One cannot deny that most religious people rely on something outside of themselves to provide answers to questions or solutions to situations they feel they cannot create themselves. To me, the opposite of self-sufficiency is a crutch. If anyone wants to attach positive or negative connotations to either term, that's their choice. I'm just defining the two styles of thinking without pledging allegiance or having any emotional connection to either side.
As for your other points, I wasn't suggesting that child abuse didn't occur in other faiths, nor did I suggest that child abuse only occurred in churches. Not sure why you felt the need to get so defensive..
The Real Wizard · Member since
GratefulFan wrote:
[QUOTE]Perhaps it's a little more 'misogynistic' to feel women are in need of your rescue when in fact most are exercising choice and seeking out roles that are fulfilling to them.[/QUOTE]
I'm not trying to rescue anyone. If women are happy going to churches where men hold all the major positions and make all the major decisions, then great - everybody wins. But in the interest of equality, I feel that's wrong. To suggest I may have misogynistic tendencies for that reason is a bit of a stretch. In other words, I'm not a misogynist if I agree with the notion that a woman has the right to choose to be subservient to men? I think my brain just exploded.
[QUOTE]I like listening to men. I like listening to them speak and sing and be good at what they do. I like looking at them. I find men inspiring, and though they sure can gut you one on one in love, they're an awesome gender overall. Is that OK with you Bob, or do I need to be wrestling men for some pulpit or big leather chair to be equal?[/QUOTE]
Naturally equality is relative to one's own ideas and comfort levels. If you feel equal or at ease in this way, then great. But there are plenty of women who say, "Eve took the apple, so we ladies are the ones who messed everything up," or "a woman's job is to have babies and raise the family while the men do all the work" It's that kind of mentality that I'm referring to. It is still out there and rampant, and of course not just in churches. I grew up watching it in action.
If a priest or a cardinal said, "I like listening to women. I like listening to them speak and sing and be good at what they do. I like looking at them. I find women inspiring," then we'd have equality. If a pope said it, then hell would freeze over.
JoxerTheDeityPirate · Member since
thank fuck he's gone home!
Rick · Member since
The Dutch made a parody of the pope concerning his visit to the UK:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lvQdarvC34
YourValentine · Member since
Child abuse happens everywhere when adults (mostly men) have power over children: in families, schools, the churches. I often think that pedophiles perhaps pick a job that gives them access to children. I think that the celibacy in theCatholic church may play a role in the incredibly many cases of child abuse in the Catholic church: oppressed sexuality in combination with power must be a dangerous mix. There are not so many cases in the Protestant church - at least not in my country. Even if the child abuse cases were not so frequent, the outcry about priests abusing children would be still much louder than in other cases because of the presumed moral authority of a priest. Imagine you confess your spiritual doubts and even your sins to a child molester - that is really a frightening thought and a much bigger breach of trust than in cases of secular teachers who are not regarded as the moral leaders.
Looking into the cases of child abuse that popped up in recent years almost everywhere, we have learnt that the abused children are full of shame and guilt and do not open up to their parents or other people. It's not that parents did not believe their children - the overwhelming majority simply did not know. We can only hope that the pubilicity of the known cases lead to fear and caution, so that potential child abusers do not dare to carry on with their behaviour. We should also get more educated about sexuality - how can it be that so many adults feel attracted to children without the society even being aware of that problem? We have had tons of studies about sexuality since the 1970s but the issue of child abuse is strangely absent fron these studies.
YourValentine · Member since
Although the Catholic church says that God created all human beings equal and loves all of "his" children in the same way, they still do not treat the women as equal human beings. The church is not only a religious organisation, it's also a powerful worldly organisation but there is not a single woman in the hierarchy of the church because it is being lead by the clergy. A chuch who excludes half of the population from taking an active part should not be surprised that modern Christians turn their backs to the hopelessly outdated and oldfashioned organistaion. In the last 50 years people freed themselves from the moral dictatorship of the church and do not care much about the moral point of view of the church anymore. It is not enough for the Pope to apologise for child abuse - he has to consider the reality of modern life if he wants to be taken seriously as a spiritual leader.
magicalfreddiemercury · Member since
>>> YourValentine wrote:In the last 50 years people freed themselves from the moral dictatorship of the church and do not care much about the moral point of view of the church anymore. It is not enough for the Pope to apologise for child abuse - he has to consider the reality of modern life if he wants to be taken seriously as a spiritual leader. <<< . And yet, sadly, there are still throngs of people in awe of this man. They stand riveted when he speaks as if their god is speaking through him. So, while many have turned away and do not regard him as a worthy moral or spiritual leader, others have remained loyal almost to the point of obsession.
I still receive calls from family when "the pope is speaking". I'm expected to turn on the TV and listen to his mass or whatever else he's doing to take up airtime. People like those in my family feel more protective of the pope and the catholic church now with all the scandals as if he and the church were separate from the abuse. They feel catholics are being persecuted and if this had happened so openly in other religions, the backlash against the hierarchy would not have been as robust. They're apologists, blind followers and faithful servants of their god no matter what representatives of their god might do. I fear there are more people like them than we might realize.
Yara · Member since
The Catholic Church doesn't endorse misogyny.
Women are still allowed to pay the tithe!
thomasquinn 32989 · Member since
Yara wrote: The Catholic Church doesn't endorse misogyny.
Women are still allowed to pay the tithe! ====
LOL! Also, the Catholic Church doesn't actively oppress women; they've long since delegated that task to their husbands.
plumrach · Member since
Being a devout Athiest i managed to avoid all things pope like the weekend
thomasquinn 32989 · Member since
plumrach wrote: Being a devout Athiest
====
As an agnostic I would like to ask you what (or whom, of course) you are devoted to?
