Live Remixing - The Lesser Of Two Evils??

If it's already been touched on before, I'm sorry - it's just that there has been so much documentary talk it's been hard to keep up:)

Anyway - after watching Part 1 of Days Of Our Lives again, I was reminded that I meant to ask earlier if anyone noticed just how nice the intro of Bo Rhap was in the Hyde Park '76 clip? 

Obviously, it has been tarted up quite a bit - but, is this the way to go? I mean, it sounds great and all, but it is not a true representation of the show that night.  However, if it means we may get a release of the it on DVD, do we care  if it sounds different in places? 

So, a live release with "false" documentation of the real sound or life without an official copy - which is the lesser of the two evils?

I'm not sure what the issue is here.

Short of a band adding elements that weren't present on the night, like studio overdubs, redoing a live mix is no sin. Not to mention the fact the house mix (what the audience hears), though it may be recorded, is not normally considered a definitive mix. 

Before someone shouts out, "Yes, it is! That's what they played and that's what the audience heard on the night!", you need to consider that the house mix is done with the acoustics of the venue in mind, plus it has to battle the crowd noise. If the individual elements (drums, guitar, piano, vocals, backing vocals, etc.) were recorded and that allows for the band to mix the album later in a studio, using the original elements, then we're still getting the performance made on the night.

There's also the issue that nothing will ever accurately reproduce the audio heard by the audience on the night, because as balanced as a the house mix was during the performance, no two audience members heard exactly the same thing, because of where they were sitting and where the speakers were positioned. The relative "best" sound will always be nearest the mixing console, as that's where the guy is doing the mix and he'll do it based on what he hears from that position. The audience in the upper deck bleachers aren't hearing what he's hearing (or even what the audience twenty feet away are hearing). 

I guess it could come down to a listener's perception, that it doesn't feel live anymore now that it's been cleaned up and sounds nice and clear. I know people who equate "live" with "rough and gritty," preferring it polished studio work, claiming it has an energy, and they need to feel they're there.

What I mean is the audio in the doc is NOT from Hyde Park, IMO.  It's not just been cleaned up, it has been dubbed over using something else!  Like the way the crack in Fred's voice during Fat Bottomed Girls at Milton Keynes was lol

Would you want a release of HP if they did that throughout? Or would you care, if it meant the full, clean footage was released?

Swapping and re-arranging the audio, such as taking the audio from a different performance, was exactly the exception noted in my previous post.

I don't mind the odd small tinker, or under certain circumstances a significant alteration (such as removing the 15 seconds of silence from the CD release of Live At The Bowl, where Brian's cable cut out), but in general I like "warts and all" live releases. I don't like that the same CD pared down Freddie's "It's just a bloody record..." speech before "Staying Power", but I can live with it.

[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Thistleboy 1980 wrote:[/QUOTENAME] What I mean is the audio in the doc is NOT from Hyde Park, IMO.  It's not just been cleaned up, it has been dubbed over using something else!  Like the way the crack in Fred's voice during Fat Bottomed Girls at Milton Keynes was lol

Would you want a release of HP if they did that throughout? Or would you care, if it meant the full, clean footage was released? [/QUOTE]

Did I miss something ? What makes you think that the Bohemian Rhapsody part is overdubbed ?

pittrek wrote:

Did I miss something ? What makes you think that the Bohemian Rhapsody part is overdubbed ? =============================================================================================

Difficult for me to put into words Peter as I'm not technically minded like you or say, Gregsynth, but it just sounds completely different, IMO.  Check back, you might hear what I mean!

I don't think it's even in question, given the option of a getting new footage released far outweighs wether the sound is representative of what was heard on the night. Naturally I'd like a reasonable representation but if Freddie was off key for large parts I'd settle for it being "fixed" for the sake of a new DVD/CD.

In addition I wasn't there anyway (2 months old at the time) so I wouldn't know any better, and the bootlegs from this gig are poor. Anybody who has an issue about the sound is more than welcome to put back the sound from the bootleg.

I thought HP sounded good, but I didn't think that it was sourced from a different night....is this really true??

on a related note; I thought the another one bites the dust footage from Montreal 81 sounded more alive than the dvd - am I mistaken?

e-man wrote: I thought HP sounded good, but I didn't think that it was sourced from a different night....is this really true??

on a related note; I thought the another one bites the dust footage from Montreal 81 sounded more alive than the dvd - am I mistaken? =============================================================================================

I am not 100% certain about HP, but it sure does sound different to me.  Where's Greg or Lostman when you need them lol?

RE Montreal, yeah I got that too...

I don't know why we have to settle for either. I'm assuming nowadays it's the remaining members' call as to whether certain material is released officially but wouldn't you think they'd know their fans well enough to understand why we would want it untouched? I can understand remastering for the sake of IMPROVING quality, like hearing the audio from the band more and less from the crowd. But as far overdubbing and adding and removing shit, I'd rather stay away from it altogether. I mean, it's not nearly as thrilling sitting there watching a show and wondering which parts you hear are from that particular show.

If you have good pictures but the audio is not good due to loss of contact or technical problems I don't mind, if some skilled people try to reconstruct the audio even from various sources. As long as the aim is to recreate what went missing. 

If things are added that were never there, I think it's wrong.

Right, and You Take My Breath Away was also taken from a different show, right?

C'mon. People often think HP was a weak gig by Queen, judging from the horrible bootleg video. Freddie's voice was in great shape during the little mini tour. Just listen to the Edinburgh recording from a few days earlier. Of course they were nervous, but Freddie delivered a great show overall.

The excellent sounding snippets may be a bit overwhelming, but I don't think that part has been overdubbed. Listen carefully, it matches the bootleg video version. Just because we have that part now in excellent quality doesn't mean there has been tampered with.

Rick wrote: Right, and You Take My Breath Away was also taken from a different show, right?

C'mon. People often think HP was a weak gig by Queen, judging from the horrible bootleg video. Freddie's voice was in great shape during the little mini tour. Just listen to the Edinburgh recording from a few days earlier. Of course they were nervous, but Freddie delivered a great show overall.

The excellent sounding snippets may be a bit overwhelming, but I don't think that part has been overdubbed. Listen carefully, it matches the bootleg video version. Just because we have that part now in excellent quality doesn't mean there has been tampered with.
=============================================================================================

I have a reasonably good audience recording from the HP show which just about matches the audio from the bootleg video, Freddie sounds really different on both of these compared to the snippet used on Days last week.  For me, it has been dubbed.  It is not just cleaner, it sounds different.  I'm not saying it would be like that for the whole track, as it was just a snippet used for the doc, but it does sound different.  You Take My Breath Away is the same performance, just cleaner sounding.

I've listened to the audience recording, though not had the chance to compare side by side. But I'd say it's just a re-mix and not overdubbed. And that's coming from possibly the most sceptical person on here.

Bad Seed wrote: I've listened to the audience recording, though not had the chance to compare side by side. But I'd say it's just a re-mix and not overdubbed. And that's coming from possibly the most sceptical person on here.
=============================================================================================

Hahahaha, I just discovered amongst a load of boots I forgot I had yet another version of the HP show, an audience recording which was simply labelled "remaster"....and yep, it sounds like it is the same vocals after all - which means that they have made a really good job of cleaning up the audio from what I heard in the doc, so much so I was fooled into believing it may have been dubbed.  In that case then, excellent - hoping this indicates a future release!!!