people on streets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyT3DvXLPFg&feature=related
Thread
Posts in chronological order
people on streets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgrXBQQ_BKY&feature=related
people on streets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHwDC7vjXM8&feature=endscreen&NR=1
catqueen
[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]catqueen wrote: [/b] People were there to support her?!!![/QUOTE] Eruptions like this unfortunately express what's on the minds of a significant number of people. Anger and fear at rapid social change and feeling psychologically threatened in these situations is in many ways only human. But if immigration policies are fair and just and sound people have to find their better selves and shed their ignorance and inexperience and adapt, even when it's difficult.[/QUOTE]
But England has had a high level of diversity for a long time. I'm from Ireland, and i can understand (not agree with, but i can see where they get it from) the nervousness of some older people towards immigrants. They simply aren't used to it, they spent the first 50 years of their lives without seeing a black person other then on tv, i can understand how someone could be unsure how to react. BUT this woman is of an age where she would have grown up with people from various backgrounds. PLUS a lot of the black people in England are English.
And immigration procedures are far from sound and just... 'Fortress Europe' hates anybody coming in... In most of Europe, asylum seekers are left out of our National Action Plans for Social Inclusion. (They are mentioned in Spain's, and a few other countries, but not in most countries.) This is despite the fact that in international law, asylum seekers are meant to be given special protection. And yet, even our laws make them invisible.
(And here i am on my high horse again lol -- sorry)
[QUOTE] [b]catqueen wrote: [/b] People were there to support her?!!![/QUOTE] Eruptions like this unfortunately express what's on the minds of a significant number of people. Anger and fear at rapid social change and feeling psychologically threatened in these situations is in many ways only human. But if immigration policies are fair and just and sound people have to find their better selves and shed their ignorance and inexperience and adapt, even when it's difficult.[/QUOTE]
But England has had a high level of diversity for a long time. I'm from Ireland, and i can understand (not agree with, but i can see where they get it from) the nervousness of some older people towards immigrants. They simply aren't used to it, they spent the first 50 years of their lives without seeing a black person other then on tv, i can understand how someone could be unsure how to react. BUT this woman is of an age where she would have grown up with people from various backgrounds. PLUS a lot of the black people in England are English.
And immigration procedures are far from sound and just... 'Fortress Europe' hates anybody coming in... In most of Europe, asylum seekers are left out of our National Action Plans for Social Inclusion. (They are mentioned in Spain's, and a few other countries, but not in most countries.) This is despite the fact that in international law, asylum seekers are meant to be given special protection. And yet, even our laws make them invisible.
(And here i am on my high horse again lol -- sorry)
catqueen
And the 'freedom of speech' which is touted so proudly by Americans... it was never intended to be freedom to swear in public if i frickin well want to. It was freedom to debate, to discuss ideas, to have open political and ideological discourse without fear of arrest. You are legally allowed to disagree with polititions. You are legally allowed to say that the law should be changed. It is a basic, first generation right and relates to journalists being legally allowed to write about political issues, even if they don't agree with the party line. It goes with freedom of peaceful assembly and all that. It was never meant to mean that you can scream abuse at people.
GratefulFan
Holly2003 said snigger. Which is silly, because I'm totally swhite.
people on streets
[QUOTE] [b]catqueen wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]catqueen wrote: [/b] People were there to support her?!!![/QUOTE] Eruptions like this unfortunately express what's on the minds of a significant number of people. Anger and fear at rapid social change and feeling psychologically threatened in these situations is in many ways only human. But if immigration policies are fair and just and sound people have to find their better selves and shed their ignorance and inexperience and adapt, even when it's difficult.[/QUOTE]
But England has had a high level of diversity for a long time. I'm from Ireland, and i can understand (not agree with, but i can see where they get it from) the nervousness of some older people towards immigrants. They simply aren't used to it, they spent the first 50 years of their lives without seeing a black person other then on tv, i can understand how someone could be unsure how to react. BUT this woman is of an age where she would have grown up with people from various backgrounds. PLUS a lot of the black people in England are English.
And immigration procedures are far from sound and just... 'Fortress Europe' hates anybody coming in... In most of Europe, asylum seekers are left out of our National Action Plans for Social Inclusion. (They are mentioned in Spain's, and a few other countries, but not in most countries.) This is despite the fact that in international law, asylum seekers are meant to be given special protection. And yet, even our laws make them invisible.
(And here i am on my high horse again lol -- sorry)[/QUOTE]
Fortress Europe?
Ever been to the Netherlands?
[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]catqueen wrote: [/b] People were there to support her?!!![/QUOTE] Eruptions like this unfortunately express what's on the minds of a significant number of people. Anger and fear at rapid social change and feeling psychologically threatened in these situations is in many ways only human. But if immigration policies are fair and just and sound people have to find their better selves and shed their ignorance and inexperience and adapt, even when it's difficult.[/QUOTE]
But England has had a high level of diversity for a long time. I'm from Ireland, and i can understand (not agree with, but i can see where they get it from) the nervousness of some older people towards immigrants. They simply aren't used to it, they spent the first 50 years of their lives without seeing a black person other then on tv, i can understand how someone could be unsure how to react. BUT this woman is of an age where she would have grown up with people from various backgrounds. PLUS a lot of the black people in England are English.
And immigration procedures are far from sound and just... 'Fortress Europe' hates anybody coming in... In most of Europe, asylum seekers are left out of our National Action Plans for Social Inclusion. (They are mentioned in Spain's, and a few other countries, but not in most countries.) This is despite the fact that in international law, asylum seekers are meant to be given special protection. And yet, even our laws make them invisible.
(And here i am on my high horse again lol -- sorry)[/QUOTE]
Fortress Europe?
Ever been to the Netherlands?
catqueen
[QUOTE] [b]people on streets wrote:[/b]
Fortress Europe?
Ever been to the Netherlands?[/QUOTE]
The Netherlands being one of the only countries in the world in which their own ethnic people are not a majority group.
But is it that easy to move there now? Maybe it is, and if so, then that's the exception, the rest of Europe is not that easy to get into... It used to be, not so much anymore.
Fortress Europe?
Ever been to the Netherlands?[/QUOTE]
The Netherlands being one of the only countries in the world in which their own ethnic people are not a majority group.
But is it that easy to move there now? Maybe it is, and if so, then that's the exception, the rest of Europe is not that easy to get into... It used to be, not so much anymore.
thomasquinn 32989
I beg your pardon? Are you full of shit all the time, or just now, catqueen? In 2008, 80.7% of Dutch people were ethnic Dutch, and that is the official figure from the CBS (Central Bureau for Statistics) - and for your information, I'm Dutch.
The Netherlands were a relatively easy immigration country in the '80s, less so in the '90s, and not at all so today. The anti-immigration populist party scores 15 - 18 % of the vote, and we've had at least three major rebukes from the European Committee during the last two years for illegally abridging the rights of aliens.
For your information, The Netherlands are one of the only countries in the world where the children of illegal immigrants are locked up in prisons as are the children of refugees that aren't allowed to stay. I say prisons, because they are put in exactly the same institutions as underage felons, alongside them. It has even occurred, but this at least generated outrage, that they were put in regular prisons, by themselves, because "there wasn't any room elsewhere".
The Netherlands has become a xenophobe, somewhat repulsive place to live. This "lovely lady" would find many sympathetic ears amongst the electorate of the above mentioned party
The Netherlands were a relatively easy immigration country in the '80s, less so in the '90s, and not at all so today. The anti-immigration populist party scores 15 - 18 % of the vote, and we've had at least three major rebukes from the European Committee during the last two years for illegally abridging the rights of aliens.
For your information, The Netherlands are one of the only countries in the world where the children of illegal immigrants are locked up in prisons as are the children of refugees that aren't allowed to stay. I say prisons, because they are put in exactly the same institutions as underage felons, alongside them. It has even occurred, but this at least generated outrage, that they were put in regular prisons, by themselves, because "there wasn't any room elsewhere".
The Netherlands has become a xenophobe, somewhat repulsive place to live. This "lovely lady" would find many sympathetic ears amongst the electorate of the above mentioned party
Holly2003
Because she may have made a mistake doesn't make her "full of shit". You behave here mainly like an obnoxious, immature bully Thomas. Grow up.
GratefulFan
By happenstance there is a media focus on immigration in Canada right now that leans quite the other way. Canada wants, many say needs, immigrants. If anybody is interested there is a dedicated section in the Globe & Mail. Comments are about the same though. The issue seems to disproportionately bring out the xenophobes for public discourse.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/
catqueen
[QUOTE] [b]Holly2003 wrote:[/b]
Because she may have made a mistake doesn't make her "full of shit". You behave here mainly like an obnoxious, immature bully Thomas. Grow up. [/QUOTE]
he's grand, i should have checked, cos even when i wrote it i couldn't remember where i had heard it and i knew it didn't seem right.
Because she may have made a mistake doesn't make her "full of shit". You behave here mainly like an obnoxious, immature bully Thomas. Grow up. [/QUOTE]
he's grand, i should have checked, cos even when i wrote it i couldn't remember where i had heard it and i knew it didn't seem right.
catqueen
[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]
I beg your pardon? Are you full of shit all the time, or just now, catqueen? In 2008, 80.7% of Dutch people were ethnic Dutch, and that is the official figure from the CBS (Central Bureau for Statistics) - and for your information, I'm Dutch.
The Netherlands were a relatively easy immigration country in the '80s, less so in the '90s, and not at all so today. The anti-immigration populist party scores 15 - 18 % of the vote, and we've had at least three major rebukes from the European Committee during the last two years for illegally abridging the rights of aliens.
For your information, The Netherlands are one of the only countries in the world where the children of illegal immigrants are locked up in prisons as are the children of refugees that aren't allowed to stay. I say prisons, because they are put in exactly the same institutions as underage felons, alongside them. It has even occurred, but this at least generated outrage, that they were put in regular prisons, by themselves, because "there wasn't any room elsewhere".
The Netherlands has become a xenophobe, somewhat repulsive place to live. This "lovely lady" would find many sympathetic ears amongst the electorate of the above mentioned party[/QUOTE]
I was responding to people on streets who implied that it's easy to get into the Netherlands. I should have checked facts, cos i knew that a Dutch minority didn't seem right. But was that the situation at some time or in some city in the Netherlands? Cos i know i heard it somewhere, just can't remember where. (obviously just cos i vaguely remember hearing it doesn't make it right, just i'm wondering what the correct version of it is!)
And yeah, i know, all of Europe is getting more and more extremist in relation to immigration - hence my Fortress Europe comment. In Ireland attitudes aren't great, but nowhere near as bad as in some places.
How do kids get locked up into prison? I mean, obviously they'd have to go into care temporarily while stuff was sorted out, but wouldn't a Human Rights Commission step in?
I guess illegal immigrants aren't covered in most Inclusion policies, but still, that's a clear breach of rights, esp for kids who aren't legally responsible, so i'm surprised it was allowed. Then again, the way asylum seekers are treated here is legal and its also in clear breach of human rights. We just conveniently left asylum seekers out of our National Action Plan for Social Inclusion. Pretty much everyone was mentioned in it, except asylum seekers, which makes them essentially invisible in our welfare state.
*And i didn't say that the Netherlands were ok on immigration, i said in my post that i didn't know, but that i doubt that it's as easy now as it used to be.
I beg your pardon? Are you full of shit all the time, or just now, catqueen? In 2008, 80.7% of Dutch people were ethnic Dutch, and that is the official figure from the CBS (Central Bureau for Statistics) - and for your information, I'm Dutch.
The Netherlands were a relatively easy immigration country in the '80s, less so in the '90s, and not at all so today. The anti-immigration populist party scores 15 - 18 % of the vote, and we've had at least three major rebukes from the European Committee during the last two years for illegally abridging the rights of aliens.
For your information, The Netherlands are one of the only countries in the world where the children of illegal immigrants are locked up in prisons as are the children of refugees that aren't allowed to stay. I say prisons, because they are put in exactly the same institutions as underage felons, alongside them. It has even occurred, but this at least generated outrage, that they were put in regular prisons, by themselves, because "there wasn't any room elsewhere".
The Netherlands has become a xenophobe, somewhat repulsive place to live. This "lovely lady" would find many sympathetic ears amongst the electorate of the above mentioned party[/QUOTE]
I was responding to people on streets who implied that it's easy to get into the Netherlands. I should have checked facts, cos i knew that a Dutch minority didn't seem right. But was that the situation at some time or in some city in the Netherlands? Cos i know i heard it somewhere, just can't remember where. (obviously just cos i vaguely remember hearing it doesn't make it right, just i'm wondering what the correct version of it is!)
And yeah, i know, all of Europe is getting more and more extremist in relation to immigration - hence my Fortress Europe comment. In Ireland attitudes aren't great, but nowhere near as bad as in some places.
How do kids get locked up into prison? I mean, obviously they'd have to go into care temporarily while stuff was sorted out, but wouldn't a Human Rights Commission step in?
I guess illegal immigrants aren't covered in most Inclusion policies, but still, that's a clear breach of rights, esp for kids who aren't legally responsible, so i'm surprised it was allowed. Then again, the way asylum seekers are treated here is legal and its also in clear breach of human rights. We just conveniently left asylum seekers out of our National Action Plan for Social Inclusion. Pretty much everyone was mentioned in it, except asylum seekers, which makes them essentially invisible in our welfare state.
*And i didn't say that the Netherlands were ok on immigration, i said in my post that i didn't know, but that i doubt that it's as easy now as it used to be.
GratefulFan
[QUOTE] [b]catqueen wrote:[/b]he's grand, i should have checked, cos even when i wrote it i couldn't remember where i had heard it and i knew it didn't seem right.[/QUOTE]
I'm happy you weren't annoyed/hurt. :) But the aspect of the reply that was noted out is a bit of a pattern and anything but grand. The next person may be a little more put off. It should have been called out, it was, and I'm glad.
I'm happy you weren't annoyed/hurt. :) But the aspect of the reply that was noted out is a bit of a pattern and anything but grand. The next person may be a little more put off. It should have been called out, it was, and I'm glad.
thomasquinn 32989
I am not aware of any city, province or other geographical region larger than a neighborhood where ethnic Dutch are a minority. The far right often claims that Rotterdam has a majority of non-Dutch people, but this is not reflected in any official statistic. As far as I'm aware, the lowest percentage of ethnic Dutch in a city is still between 60 and 70 per cent.
The explanation offered for locking up children in prisons is twofold.
One: that it is not policy, but merely an emergency measure - this evidently isn't true, as Dutch newspapers have been reporting on this since at least 2004, which is when I first heard about it - that year, the United Nations found the Netherlands guilty of human rights violations. Because it's not officially policy, they can keep doing it even after a Dutch judge ruled it contradicted Dutch law, the European Committee ruled it violated children's rights and a parliamentary majority passed a bill outlawing it. So technically, it isn't allowed to happen, it just does, to an estimated 100+ children a year.
Two: because illegal immigrants technically aren't *required* to bring their children along with them, the state rejects responsibility for locking them up. The argument seems to be that the illegal immigrants could, instead, choose to have their kids starve in the street. Needless to say that even the Dutch judge dismissed this argument immediately, but nothing has changed.
I'm sorry for being short with you earlier, but the remark you posted is often used by the Dutch far right, and is very painful for many Dutchmen, because nearly everyone here knows it's not true. Sadly, some people still use it as an excuse for verbal (and sometimes physical) abuse of foreign (looking) people, which is something I am very ashamed is happening in my country.
The explanation offered for locking up children in prisons is twofold.
One: that it is not policy, but merely an emergency measure - this evidently isn't true, as Dutch newspapers have been reporting on this since at least 2004, which is when I first heard about it - that year, the United Nations found the Netherlands guilty of human rights violations. Because it's not officially policy, they can keep doing it even after a Dutch judge ruled it contradicted Dutch law, the European Committee ruled it violated children's rights and a parliamentary majority passed a bill outlawing it. So technically, it isn't allowed to happen, it just does, to an estimated 100+ children a year.
Two: because illegal immigrants technically aren't *required* to bring their children along with them, the state rejects responsibility for locking them up. The argument seems to be that the illegal immigrants could, instead, choose to have their kids starve in the street. Needless to say that even the Dutch judge dismissed this argument immediately, but nothing has changed.
I'm sorry for being short with you earlier, but the remark you posted is often used by the Dutch far right, and is very painful for many Dutchmen, because nearly everyone here knows it's not true. Sadly, some people still use it as an excuse for verbal (and sometimes physical) abuse of foreign (looking) people, which is something I am very ashamed is happening in my country.