Why I hate the Dutch right

[b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote: [/b]

Even as we speak, parliamentary democracy is being replaced by a new kind of feudalism: large banks and businesses can now move and act with complete impunity, disregarding the law themselves, and using it against their adversaries. We used to call it "divine right", now we call it "too big to fail" - it is still the same thing. And it is every single one of us who has allowed it to happen. The moment we refuse to defend our freedom, we lose our right to it. It appears that this moment came and went decades ago.

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I totally agree: your member of parliament is not representing you. You have to go to Supreme Court to have your rights protected. Join occupy  -  it is what you make of it. Just recently police in Frankfurt arrested over 60 people who dared to exercise their constitutional rights, it looked much as Cairo. The more people join forces, the better chances we have to regain the rights our politicians are signing away to the banks and global players. For decades we social democrats have been ridiculed as "leftist hippies", "good-doers" and similar when we fought against the global power of capitalism and now we have no socialist tradition left. Unions were made powerless when workers were told that their company will move to Romania if they ask for more money. People had to learn that the state is not there to bring society justice and welfare for all but the state is there to shift the money from the masses to the few richest. The tide will turn when the masses are panicking - like we already see in Spain and Greece where millions go to the streets. Join occupy - it is just what you and I make of it.

[QUOTE]Join occupy - it is just what you and I make of it.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps, then, you could provide an example of where it has done some good.

[QUOTE] [b]Micrówave wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE]Join occupy - it is just what you and I make of it.[/QUOTE]Perhaps, then, you could provide an example of where it has done some good.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps promoting retirement at age 55 with a very generous pension ... just like Greece ...

Or perhaps having a union hold company management hostage ... just like France ...

Campaiging against tax avoidance by huge corporations?

Those opposed to "occupy" are also those most likely to be anti-socialist. Apparently though, socialism is terrible when it benefits the weak and needy but absolutely fine when govts are bailing out large corporations.

You are absolutely right, Holly: profits are private but all the management mistakes are paid for by the tax payer.

@ Mike: when a society progresses so far that they do not need all people to work 60 hours per week for 50 years what is the right thing to do: pay pensions to the old and unemployment money to the unemployed or is it better to give all the money to a few people and let them speculate with the homes and pensions of the many? The global financial "industry" - they do not produce anything, they do not accept the idea that property implies responsibility - they gamble away billions in a day and then they call for the government - but beware that the government should have the right to regulate this ruthless industry.

If the government does not represent the interests of the majority - what will happen? People will vote for extreme parties, they will go to the streets and demand that their voices will be heard. It is really up to each individual how they respond to the situation. Personally, i do not believe in extreme politics but I believe that we must turn around fast before all our socíal aquirements are gone and Europe gets as poor as Africa just from the greed of the financial industry.

I can see that the USA is in a different place because the USA will just print money if they need it with no connection to the actual economic strength. In Europe the currency is under stress because we cannot just print money, the economies must be able to generate the money the countries need but that is not the case after the finacial crisis.

We badly and urgently need politicians who remember whom they are representing in a democracy. It cannot be accepted that 50% of the young people in Spain are unemployed, this is worse than the Middle East. In Germany we go to the Supremem Court to stop our government to throw more billions of our money into the accounts of banks claiming we are bailing out "Greece" or "Spain" when we in fact are bailing out German and French banks.

[QUOTE] [b]YourValentine wrote:[/b]
I can see that the USA is in a different place because the USA will just print money if they need it with no connection to the actual economic strength. In Europe the currency is under stress because we cannot just print money, the economies must be able to generate the money the countries need but that is not the case after the finacial crisis.
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I agree with most you say, YV, but this I take exception to. Please let me split the argument into two parts:

"In Europe the currency is under stress because we cannot just print money, the economies must be able to generate the money the countries need"

That's just not true. We can print as much money as we want to - the price is inflation. If I were to print one euro for every 100 euros currently in circulation, I would increase the inflation by 1%. In fact, the ECB *is* printing extra money, just not in enormous quantities.

"I can see that the USA is in a different place because the USA will just print money if they need it with no connection to the actual economic strength."

And this is one of the few cases where I think the classical economists stumbled onto a pebble of brilliance in creating fiduciary currency: because the actual coins and bills have no real value, only face value, the sum total of all currency in circulation automatically reflects the actual economic strength.

Let's put this into a model, and say that an imaginary country has an actual economic strength worth 1 KG of gold. It has 1000 coins of equal value in circulation, meaning that every coins is worth 1 gram of gold. If this country were suddenly to mill 1000 extra coins of identical value to those in circulation, each coin would now be worth 1000 grams / 2000 = 0,5 grams of gold. The result would be the depreciation of the currency by half, but it is nonetheless possible, and in certain circumstances even advisable.

I think that we do need to start printing money, but not to bail out more banks, but to inject into the real economy. Keynes' answer would apply today, especially in a country like Spain with an enormous unemployment: print billions, and spend them on employment (public works! In this case, I'd recommend spending a significant part on energy innovation and electrical infrastructure). You will get inflation, which sui generis will benefit those with large debts and hurt those with large savings, meaning that you also create an incentive to invest.

I am not an economist and all your examples are probably true but the birth problem of the Euro is that we do not have a common economy, just a common currency. Therefore your models do not apply. In the old days the German Central Bank used to buy and sell Francs and British pounds etc to craeate a favourite balance between the German D-Mark and other currencies. Now we have very different ecomnomies but the same Euro and even the same prices in many ways. I do not understand how this was ever supposed to work and most people do not understand that, either. In all countries where the people had a vote the Euro was not introduced. I remember that the German D-Mark was equal to approx 1000-1600 Italian Lira and 1000 Spanish Pesetas were worth about 14-16 German D-Mark. Travelling in Spain and Greece was very cheap because they had low income and low prices. It did not need rocket science to be sceptical about the common currency and the big surprise is that it took 10 years to hit the wall.

What is the solution? Probably a transfer union in which the richer countries pay for the poorer but it will not work because the people in the richer states do not want to pay for economic decisions made elsewhere and the poorer states do not want the richer states to tell them what to do. I have no confidence in our politicians and right now it is the people versus the government and virtually each law they make with regard to the Euro is taken to the Supreme Court.

[QUOTE]"I can see that the USA is in a different place because the USA will just print money if they need it with no connection to the actual economic strength."[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]And this is one of the few cases where I think the classical economists stumbled onto a pebble of brilliance in creating fiduciary currency: because the actual coins and bills have no real value, only face value, the sum total of all currency in circulation automatically reflects the actual economic strength.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for pointing this out.  It seems we have a pretty sordid reputation abroad.  Printing money if we need it?  And it has no connection to economic strength?  Holy Cow.

I didn't kill the thread, I just thought it funny that we're playing the "slam the US" Queenzone Game in this thread... it has nothing to do with the US versus the rest of the world... except maybe the fact that the same thing that happens here happens there, too.  

I find this thread quite enlightening and YES.I know who started it.  Good for you, TQ.

[QUOTE]What is the solution? Probably a transfer union in which the richer countries pay for the poorer but it will not work because the people in the richer states do not want to pay for economic decisions made elsewhere and the poorer states do not want the richer states to tell them what to do.[/QUOTE]

I don't know... it could work.  The Cardinals won the world series this year... not the Yankees.  Works ok for the NFL, too!

It was not slamming the US when I pointed out that the USA can print as much money as they need. Actually, I was referring to what I heard
http://www.cnbc.com/id/44051683/No_Chance_of_Default_US_Can_Print_Money_Greenspan

There is no lashing out, just a description of a different situation because obviously we have very different economies in the Eurozone while the USA is one economy and one currency.

Inflation is a benefit for those who are in debt but it robs those who have savings like for example pension fonds. I do not believe that such an inflation would be accepted by the net payers too easily. We have had a lot of agreements in the EU and all of them were broken like a treaty is not worth the paper that they are written on.

I am all for a political union but it would need to be democratic, i.e. no power for commissions nobody voted for and a parliament with actual law making rights and elected with equal votes. I am for a transfer union but it must benefit the people and not the banks and we would have to agree on the rules and then actually play by the rules. I do not have much confidence that this can happen.