Saint Jiub
No - You can go the hospital emergency room where you can find over half of the customers are illegal immigrants.
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thomasquinn 32989
[QUOTE] [b]Panchgani wrote:[/b]
No - You can go the hospital emergency room where you can find over half of the customers are illegal immigrants.[/QUOTE]
I think even you realize the idiocy of the above remark. It does show the state of current Republican statesmanship. When faced with any plan by the Democrats, regardless of how good or bad it is, Republicans put their hands on their ears and yell "Socialism! Socialism! Communism! Illegal Immigrants! Atheism! Socialism!"
No - You can go the hospital emergency room where you can find over half of the customers are illegal immigrants.[/QUOTE]
I think even you realize the idiocy of the above remark. It does show the state of current Republican statesmanship. When faced with any plan by the Democrats, regardless of how good or bad it is, Republicans put their hands on their ears and yell "Socialism! Socialism! Communism! Illegal Immigrants! Atheism! Socialism!"
greaserkat
[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Panchgani wrote:[/b]
No - You can go the hospital emergency room where you can find over half of the customers are illegal immigrants.[/QUOTE]
I think even you realize the idiocy of the above remark. It does show the state of current Republican statesmanship. When faced with any plan by the Democrats, regardless of how good or bad it is, Republicans put their hands on their ears and yell "Socialism! Socialism! Communism! Illegal Immigrants! Atheism! Socialism!"[/QUOTE]
Don't forget, "Gays!!"
[QUOTE] [b]Panchgani wrote:[/b]
No - You can go the hospital emergency room where you can find over half of the customers are illegal immigrants.[/QUOTE]
I think even you realize the idiocy of the above remark. It does show the state of current Republican statesmanship. When faced with any plan by the Democrats, regardless of how good or bad it is, Republicans put their hands on their ears and yell "Socialism! Socialism! Communism! Illegal Immigrants! Atheism! Socialism!"[/QUOTE]
Don't forget, "Gays!!"
Saint Jiub
Free health care for illegal immigrants cost California over 1 billion dollars per year ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/18/us/18immig.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/18/us/18immig.html?pagewanted=all
GratefulFan
Every health system has challenges that have to be identified and addressed as well as possible. Ontario has grappled for years with the problem of people borrowing OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) cards and obtaining health care illegally, most notably Americans. Photo cards introduced several years ago have helped, but OHIP fraud is and has been the bee in the bonnet of successive Ontario governments for years. The bottom line is that virtually every developed nation gets better aggregate health outcomes for less money per capita than the United States. The fact that the US is the last bastion in the first world of this kind of health model should give every American some pause. Respecting the unique entrepreneurial and independent American spirit does not require linking wealth to health outcomes. It's a strange Darwinian unnatural selection that can only hurt the culture over time, and perhaps already has.
waunakonor
Aawwww...I can argue about Queen stuff reasonably well, but I can't argue about this at all. I understand the issue well enough, but I have no clue which side to take. They both seem kind of evil. I guess that's just the way it is in politics for the most part.
Micrówave
That's ok... they're already counting the ways to make money off this....
[QUOTE]At least 4 million people are expected to pay a penalty for not having health insurance when the rule takes full effect in 2016, bringing in about $54 billion to help offset the $1.7 trillion, 10-year cost of the act, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.[/QUOTE]
This, of course, will be the poor paying this "penalty". That's a $13,500.00 fine per person, by the way.
That should fix everything.
[QUOTE]At least 4 million people are expected to pay a penalty for not having health insurance when the rule takes full effect in 2016, bringing in about $54 billion to help offset the $1.7 trillion, 10-year cost of the act, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.[/QUOTE]
This, of course, will be the poor paying this "penalty". That's a $13,500.00 fine per person, by the way.
That should fix everything.
The Real Wizard
[QUOTE] [b]Panchgani wrote:[/b]
Free health care for illegal immigrants cost California over 1 billion dollars per year ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/18/us/18immig.html?pagewanted=all
[/QUOTE]
That's the symptom of a bigger problem that needs to be dealt with - illegals.
Depriving millions of law-abiding, hard-working citizens of health care because of an unrelated issue is not the answer.
Free health care for illegal immigrants cost California over 1 billion dollars per year ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/18/us/18immig.html?pagewanted=all
[/QUOTE]
That's the symptom of a bigger problem that needs to be dealt with - illegals.
Depriving millions of law-abiding, hard-working citizens of health care because of an unrelated issue is not the answer.
The Real Wizard
[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]
The fact that the US is the last bastion in the first world of this kind of health model should give every American some pause.[/QUOTE]
That's very optimistic of you. Most Americans can't even name 10 countries that have universal health care. They know Cuba, because Fox news keeps mentioning it in their propaganda campaign.
[QUOTE]Respecting the unique entrepreneurial and independent American spirit does not require linking wealth to health outcomes.[/QUOTE]
What would the American dream be without the "kicking others to the curb" section of the manual? One cannot possibly feel satisfied about their existence without ostracizing those they feel superior to..
The fact that the US is the last bastion in the first world of this kind of health model should give every American some pause.[/QUOTE]
That's very optimistic of you. Most Americans can't even name 10 countries that have universal health care. They know Cuba, because Fox news keeps mentioning it in their propaganda campaign.
[QUOTE]Respecting the unique entrepreneurial and independent American spirit does not require linking wealth to health outcomes.[/QUOTE]
What would the American dream be without the "kicking others to the curb" section of the manual? One cannot possibly feel satisfied about their existence without ostracizing those they feel superior to..
The Real Wizard
[QUOTE] [b]Micrówave wrote:[/b]
At least 4 million people are expected to pay a penalty for not having health insurance when the rule takes full effect in 2016
[/QUOTE]
...while 50 million others will get health care.
So what's the lesser of the two evils here?
At least 4 million people are expected to pay a penalty for not having health insurance when the rule takes full effect in 2016
[/QUOTE]
...while 50 million others will get health care.
So what's the lesser of the two evils here?
Micrówave
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one.
And then Spock died.
It wasn't Obamacare that brought him back... it was Genesis.
Seriously, though, the last time someone thought like that on such a grand scale, we all almost had to learn German.
And then Spock died.
It wasn't Obamacare that brought him back... it was Genesis.
Seriously, though, the last time someone thought like that on such a grand scale, we all almost had to learn German.
GratefulFan
[QUOTE] [b]Micrówave wrote:[/b]
That's ok... they're already counting the ways to make money off this....[QUOTE]At least 4 million people are expected to pay a penalty for not having health insurance when the rule takes full effect in 2016, bringing in about $54 billion to help offset the $1.7 trillion, 10-year cost of the act, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.[/QUOTE]This, of course, will be the poor paying this "penalty". That's a $13,500.00 fine per person, by the way. That should fix everything.[/QUOTE]
Those estimates are over 10 years, making the average 'tax' burden about $1350 per person per year by your numbers. Further, it's calculated as a percentage of income so many are not going to be paying near even that. Many of the people who will choose the penalty over insuring themselves are the risk takers, some of whom who are young and in good health who will simply be acting mostly rationally when the penalty plus their anticipated health costs is less than the cost of insurance. The problem with the plan it seems to me is not that the poor will be unduly penalized but that the insurance companies are being asked to cover more people and more things without the infusion of cash from a percentage of the people who are less likely to cost them anything. It's a bit like an auto insurance company being asked to insure everybody at reasonable rates without collecting premiums from the best and safest drivers. It's hard to see how premiums won't be affected. Some have theorized that it's a scheme designed to stumble, paving the way to the single payer system that many really want.
That's ok... they're already counting the ways to make money off this....[QUOTE]At least 4 million people are expected to pay a penalty for not having health insurance when the rule takes full effect in 2016, bringing in about $54 billion to help offset the $1.7 trillion, 10-year cost of the act, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.[/QUOTE]This, of course, will be the poor paying this "penalty". That's a $13,500.00 fine per person, by the way. That should fix everything.[/QUOTE]
Those estimates are over 10 years, making the average 'tax' burden about $1350 per person per year by your numbers. Further, it's calculated as a percentage of income so many are not going to be paying near even that. Many of the people who will choose the penalty over insuring themselves are the risk takers, some of whom who are young and in good health who will simply be acting mostly rationally when the penalty plus their anticipated health costs is less than the cost of insurance. The problem with the plan it seems to me is not that the poor will be unduly penalized but that the insurance companies are being asked to cover more people and more things without the infusion of cash from a percentage of the people who are less likely to cost them anything. It's a bit like an auto insurance company being asked to insure everybody at reasonable rates without collecting premiums from the best and safest drivers. It's hard to see how premiums won't be affected. Some have theorized that it's a scheme designed to stumble, paving the way to the single payer system that many really want.
The Real Wizard
[QUOTE] [b]Micrówave wrote:[/b]
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one.
the last time someone thought like that on such a grand scale, we all almost had to learn German.[/QUOTE]
This, while trying to justify not letting a portion of the population have health care while the majority already have it. The irony is staggering.
And of course, Obama is the only American poor enough not to afford health care. What was the rest of the civilized world thinking !? They all must be Nazis.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one.
the last time someone thought like that on such a grand scale, we all almost had to learn German.[/QUOTE]
This, while trying to justify not letting a portion of the population have health care while the majority already have it. The irony is staggering.
And of course, Obama is the only American poor enough not to afford health care. What was the rest of the civilized world thinking !? They all must be Nazis.
Saint Jiub
American health care costs are robbery compared to the rest of the world ... and can only get worse. Obamacare primarily benefits lawyers, drug companies, insurance companies and government largesse.
Democratic states like Illinois and California are already on the path to bankrupcy and following in the footsteps of European PIGS. Obamacare will further help to push Illinois and California into insolvency.
I suppose there will be tremendous joy in Queenzone when the US eventually gets what's coming to them and joins the 3rd world, but unfortunately the Queen box sets will still not be released.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/14/why-does-us-health-care-cost-so-much-part-i/
Democratic states like Illinois and California are already on the path to bankrupcy and following in the footsteps of European PIGS. Obamacare will further help to push Illinois and California into insolvency.
I suppose there will be tremendous joy in Queenzone when the US eventually gets what's coming to them and joins the 3rd world, but unfortunately the Queen box sets will still not be released.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/14/why-does-us-health-care-cost-so-much-part-i/
thomasquinn 32989
What you seem to be completely unable to grasp, Panchgani, is what the *reason* for health care costs in the US being completely ridiculous is.
The GOP has been consciously sabotaging any effort to create a decent, working healthcare system since the Lyndon Johnson administration. You can debate on the exact reasons, but the results are very clear: the people at the top of the healthcare ladder are making innumerable millions from an extortionist system, while those doctors and nurses who actually work (very, very hard) to provide healthcare can essentially choose between doing useless luxury treatments in expensive hospitals, or getting starvation wages for doing the real work.
If you try to pin the trouble on 'Obamacare', you are blind. If you are claiming that "Democratic states [...] are already on the path to bankrupcy", you are not telling the whole truth. As I recall, Rick Perry has been pretty effective in leading Texas to the brink of destruction, and Texas hasn't voted Democrat since they figured out they lost the Civil War (which I'm guessing they did when Nixon pointed it out to them). Also, California has had a Republican governor for quite some years now - you might actually know him: Arnold Schwarzenegger, who used to be a friend of Bush's.
The whole of the U.S. is heading towards ruin right now, and the reason is simple: since 2001, there has been no competent government. Since 2008, there has hardly been any government, because the current GOP would rather see the U.S. completely destroyed than reach any sort of compromise with the Democrats that might help the country.
As far as I am concerned, the vote in November is between 1880s style elitist corruption (Romney) or a president who has shown himself to be better than anything the GOP has offered since Theodore Roosevelt.
I will guarantee you this: if Romney is elected, you will have war with Iran and Syria before 2015, soaring unemployment and more poverty, more breaches of your civil rights like under Bush, and the *very same senior officials* who made the Bush-administration such a disaster.
The GOP has been consciously sabotaging any effort to create a decent, working healthcare system since the Lyndon Johnson administration. You can debate on the exact reasons, but the results are very clear: the people at the top of the healthcare ladder are making innumerable millions from an extortionist system, while those doctors and nurses who actually work (very, very hard) to provide healthcare can essentially choose between doing useless luxury treatments in expensive hospitals, or getting starvation wages for doing the real work.
If you try to pin the trouble on 'Obamacare', you are blind. If you are claiming that "Democratic states [...] are already on the path to bankrupcy", you are not telling the whole truth. As I recall, Rick Perry has been pretty effective in leading Texas to the brink of destruction, and Texas hasn't voted Democrat since they figured out they lost the Civil War (which I'm guessing they did when Nixon pointed it out to them). Also, California has had a Republican governor for quite some years now - you might actually know him: Arnold Schwarzenegger, who used to be a friend of Bush's.
The whole of the U.S. is heading towards ruin right now, and the reason is simple: since 2001, there has been no competent government. Since 2008, there has hardly been any government, because the current GOP would rather see the U.S. completely destroyed than reach any sort of compromise with the Democrats that might help the country.
As far as I am concerned, the vote in November is between 1880s style elitist corruption (Romney) or a president who has shown himself to be better than anything the GOP has offered since Theodore Roosevelt.
I will guarantee you this: if Romney is elected, you will have war with Iran and Syria before 2015, soaring unemployment and more poverty, more breaches of your civil rights like under Bush, and the *very same senior officials* who made the Bush-administration such a disaster.