[b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote: [/b] Many of the media are leaving this out, but probably the most loyal (or at least supportive) of the US allies right now is Turkey. However, they also have their own pro-Muslim Brotherhood president and anti-Kurd motives, which means they are a dangerous and not wholly trustworthy ally in this case. The main problem with allies does not seem to be a lack of faith in the US, but such a thorough paranoia towards all muslims that a majority of the people in the west are quite willing to believe the most bizarre conspiracy theories in which all of Syria (except Assad and his men) consists of Islamic fanatics who are staging all kinds of atrocities to lure the west towards them only to massacre all of the west. It doesn't make any sense, but this is what increasing numbers of people seem to believe (for the sake of argument, I've combined a number of separate views into one whole here). Ever since 9/11, there has been a massive resurgence of paranoia and mistrust towards all news reporting, and a highly disturbing growth in conspiracy theories and the number of people who believe them. I think this is a much more important than the US standing in deciding whether or not individual countries support the US here.
@Bob:
It's not about political color here - France has a long history with Syria, and that's probably what this is about. Also, it's traditionally been the left that has been most vocal in opposing the use of chemical weapons, ever since WWI.[/QUOTE]
I think it only complicates an already complicated matter even further if you introduce conspiracy theorists. I do not think it takes much of a conspiracy theory to think that Saudi Arabia may well behind the gas attack - just ask yourself: Cui bono? Read the articles in the Wall Street paper and The Guardian about the Saudi interests in toppling the Assad regime and watch how Obama changed his attitude towards the role of the USA in Syria during recent months. He looks more like someone who has been pushed into the war lord position than someone who follows his own beliefs, don't you think? In his first term Obama seemed to be determined to stop policing the Middle East but now he looks like someone who is forced to to the dirty work because he cannot possibly "lose his face" after drawing this ominous "red line".
But notwithstanding who commited the atrocity in Syria - what exactly do you expect a military strike can achieve? Just look at Afghanistan - NATO has been fighting there for 12 long years now - this is twice as long as WW2 lasted and nothing has been achieved, there is no peace in Afghanistan at all. As soon as the NATO troops will leave the country the Taliban will return and nothing will have been improved because the life of the Afghanistan people has not improved and young men will see their only future in taking to arms in one of the militia. The same is true for Iraq: in Iraq people are killed on a daily basis , the country is in ruins and each day more people lose their hope in this ongoing terror and war. You do not need to be a fan of dictators like Saddam Hussein or Assad or Mubarak to wonder which is the lesser evil for the people who live in such countries. More Syrian people flee the country since the US miltary strike is hanging over their heads - we need a peaceful solution, there is no other hope. There must be a dialogue with Russia and mainly Iran to find a solution for the region, the hostile "we do not talk to xyz and rather flatten the next country" simply has to stop.
The Real Wizard · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]magicalfreddiemercury wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]
You and your "rational" responses. It's just unusual behaviour for this place. [/QUOTE]
I can't help but think that all of these countries need to fix themselves. Sounds awful, but honestly I don't think the US gets the idea of 'helping out'.
My other thought, though, is that there has to be a better way of screwing a guy like Assad. To my mind there isn't even a reason to fire a shot at these idiots. Anything you can do with a bullet can be done with money.
thomasquinn 32989 · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]YourValentine wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote: [/b] Many of the media are leaving this out, but probably the most loyal (or at least supportive) of the US allies right now is Turkey. However, they also have their own pro-Muslim Brotherhood president and anti-Kurd motives, which means they are a dangerous and not wholly trustworthy ally in this case. The main problem with allies does not seem to be a lack of faith in the US, but such a thorough paranoia towards all muslims that a majority of the people in the west are quite willing to believe the most bizarre conspiracy theories in which all of Syria (except Assad and his men) consists of Islamic fanatics who are staging all kinds of atrocities to lure the west towards them only to massacre all of the west. It doesn't make any sense, but this is what increasing numbers of people seem to believe (for the sake of argument, I've combined a number of separate views into one whole here). Ever since 9/11, there has been a massive resurgence of paranoia and mistrust towards all news reporting, and a highly disturbing growth in conspiracy theories and the number of people who believe them. I think this is a much more important than the US standing in deciding whether or not individual countries support the US here.
@Bob:
It's not about political color here - France has a long history with Syria, and that's probably what this is about. Also, it's traditionally been the left that has been most vocal in opposing the use of chemical weapons, ever since WWI.[/QUOTE]
I think it only complicates an already complicated matter even further if you introduce conspiracy theorists. I do not think it takes much of a conspiracy theory to think that Saudi Arabia may well behind the gas attack - just ask yourself: Cui bono? Read the articles in the Wall Street paper and The Guardian about the Saudi interests in toppling the Assad regime and watch how Obama changed his attitude towards the role of the USA in Syria during recent months. He looks more like someone who has been pushed into the war lord position than someone who follows his own beliefs, don't you think? In his first term Obama seemed to be determined to stop policing the Middle East but now he looks like someone who is forced to to the dirty work because he cannot possibly "lose his face" after drawing this ominous "red line".
But notwithstanding who commited the atrocity in Syria - what exactly do you expect a military strike can achieve? Just look at Afghanistan - NATO has been fighting there for 12 long years now - this is twice as long as WW2 lasted and nothing has been achieved, there is no peace in Afghanistan at all. As soon as the NATO troops will leave the country the Taliban will return and nothing will have been improved because the life of the Afghanistan people has not improved and young men will see their only future in taking to arms in one of the militia. The same is true for Iraq: in Iraq people are killed on a daily basis , the country is in ruins and each day more people lose their hope in this ongoing terror and war. You do not need to be a fan of dictators like Saddam Hussein or Assad or Mubarak to wonder which is the lesser evil for the people who live in such countries. More Syrian people flee the country since the US miltary strike is hanging over their heads - we need a peaceful solution, there is no other hope. There must be a dialogue with Russia and mainly Iran to find a solution for the region, the hostile "we do not talk to xyz and rather flatten the next country" simply has to stop.[/QUOTE]
thomasquinn 32989 · Member since
Goddammit! I posted a very long reply, and none of it shows up in my post! What the hell is wrong here?
brENsKi · Member since
the only thing that matters in all of this is that while the world does it's f**king "Okey-Cokey" (in out, in out, we shake it all about)
Assad and the rebels continue to take innocent lives on BOTH sides.
Doesn't matter now whether USA/France (aka la relation spéciale) do something sooner or later...the dithering and pondering has cost lives.
and...it doesn't matter what people think about who intervenes, if you slaughter, gas, wipe out your own people then you have forgone your
right to dialogue or a fair trial. hit the c*nt on the head with a brick...NOW!!!
The Real Wizard · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]
Goddammit! I posted a very long reply, and none of it shows up in my post! What the hell is wrong here?[/QUOTE]
Whenever that happens, just click the back button in your browser, copy/paste your post, edit the post and paste it back in.
It's just a forum bug. Sometimes posts don't actually post.
thomasquinn 32989 · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]
Goddammit! I posted a very long reply, and none of it shows up in my post! What the hell is wrong here?[/QUOTE]
Whenever that happens, just click the back button in your browser, copy/paste your post, edit the post and paste it back in.
It's just a forum bug. Sometimes posts don't actually post.[/QUOTE]
I tried that, but for some reason I got the "browser needs to resend information" dialog, and a blank post reply screen. I've probably got something in my browser settings wrong. Oh well, I'll have to re-write the thing later today.
Bottom line: I do think Assad is behind the gas attack, I'll explain the reasoning later, I don't think military intervention will achieve much except taking out the heaviest weaponry, but with the latest information available, it seems like the threat of military intervention did result in the first serious steps towards disarmament, which is probably the biggest victory possible (no tomahawks fired, but a fair chance that at least the bulk of the chemical weapons will be destroyed without extra casualties).
The Real Wizard · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]
I tried that, but for some reason I got the "browser needs to resend information" dialog, and a blank post reply screen. I've probably got something in my browser settings wrong. Oh well, I'll have to re-write the thing later today.
[/QUOTE]
Not sure which browser you're using, but in Firefox it works just fine.
