Was Freddie really a good person?

[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]

Let's go over the things you mention, which may make him a bad person:

- Cheater: He was gay, and for most of his life didn't have a stable partner - that doesn't really make him a cheat. When he was with Jim, he may have cheated on him a few times, but so what? Cheating doesn't make you a bad person, unless it is harmful to your children, etc.

- Drug addict: Nothing points to him being an addict. He used cocaine heavily for some time, so what? I would if I could.

- Selfish: Nothing points to this - on the contrary, most people who knew him said he was very kind and generous.

- Rude: He had his moments - he was for some time the biggest rockstar in the world - that can be a very big thing to handle, and makes it difficult to keep your feet on the ground. But again, although he was demanding and could be a bitchy diva, I don't think he was in general a rude man.

- Prone to anger: Maybe, but so what? He wanted it his way, and he reached such a high level of fame that it became difficult to be content with anything less. He wasn't a violent man.

Which leaves only the elphant in the room. Did he sleep with other people, although he knew he had HIV? He may have. But then again, what do we mean by "knew"? Until 1987, or at the earliest, 1986, he didn't KNOW for certain. Yes, by 1984-85 he probably had a good idea that he had HIV. In fact, around 1985, he changed his life around and stopped sleeping around as much - at least that's what people who knew him said. Before 1984, as others said, nobody knew much about HIV - during this time he kept being reckless, but so did all the man-whores who slept around and may have come in contact with him. I'm sure he infected several people, but someone also infected him, no? You can't judge these people, apart from saying they were irresponsible and sexually hedonistic. He certainly didn't go around PURPOSEFULLY infecting people.[/QUOTE]


He cheated with Mary and Jim. I think cheating is quite wrong and dishonest.

Freddie was selfish, I guess you forgot about the time when someone warned him about AIDS and his response was "darling fuck it". He was willing to put a cheap thrill over his life. That is pretty ignorant and pretty selfish for people who were close to him.

Drug addict, to me snorting coke is a drug problem.


From what I understand he knew in 1984 that he was infected, his GF at the time, Barabara? claimed that he didn't want her touching him when he cut his finger. So he knew.

Yet there are stories as late as 1985 that he was sleeping with people. IF (and of course that is an IF) this stuff is true, that makes him quite a horrible person. I don't buy the whole ignorance over it. Maybe the 70's but not in the mid 80's.

[QUOTE] [b]Zebonka12 wrote:[/b]

"here is a guy I idolize, but there is no chance I'd want to know him"

Then you're a fool! You need to stop idolising/looking up to celebrities and entertainers on the basis of the work they create.

If you're lucky and one of your favourite artists is someone like Ted Neeley (ie. alien levels of talent and a really cool dude all in one) then that's awesome. But you're setting yourself up for constant disappointment in life if you keep doing this thing of 'oh wow I thought they were amazing but I just found out they did drugs'. First of all, that's not a problem. Second, it's none of your business. And third, he's been dead for almost a quarter of a century. He doesn't even exist now; just his songs do.

It's really a non topic at this point.[/QUOTE]

He wrote amazing music. There is good reason to idolize him for his music.

As I have laid out, I don't think he was a good person. I just feel like many people give him a pass because he was extremely talented. Me, not so much.

[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]

Look, if we have to take something from Freddie's life, it's not the bullshit cheating, drugs, and what not. Those are just meaningless games. If we take something, it's his drive for life and for doing what he loved to do with passion and inner vigor, despite his failing health and the fact that his imminent death was inescapable. From him we can learn that even when you feel you're so deep in a dark hole, you must still find the power to climb out of it, and to improve your situation and keep going. Most of us aren't facing death like Freddie was - so whatever it is that may block our path and put us down, we certainly can rise up above it and strive to continue.

[/QUOTE]

Well thats true and I do take that from him. But at the same time, I am just saying, he wouldn't have been anyone I'd want to know personally.

Freddie beamed with positive energy. First time I saw of Queen was the Breakthru video at a very young age. What attracted me to the band is not only the music, but how full of live and positive energy Freddie was. If he can beam that attitude through a TV than I doubt he was anything but in real life. Can't fake attitude.

[QUOTE] [b]Kahle33 wrote:[/b]


Drug addict, to me snorting coke is a drug problem.

[/QUOTE]

Then you have no idea what drug addiction, or a drug problem is.

Just out of interest, do you think somebody who eats a hamburger has a hamburger problem?

Kahle33 wrote: "Drug addict, to me snorting coke is a drug problem."

It's not necessarily a drug problem at all. Sounds to me like you're a little naive when it comes to drugs.

Kahle33 also wrote: "From what I understand he knew in 1984 that he was infected, his GF at the time, Barabara? claimed that he didn't want her touching him when he cut his finger. So he knew. "

If the book you're talking about is Freddie Mercury: The Definitive Biography: By Lesley-Ann Jones (a bit of a controversial one) then here's what's written. "When we first met, he was either denying it to himself, or he simply didn't know," she [Barbara] said. "After he made his first test eventually [in 1985 she believed, contrary to other reports, though she could not confirm that prompted him to get tested], it changed his life."

Right, so you've automatically assumed the worst Kahele33? That he knew in 1984, just going by what Barbara said, speculating over two possibilities, in a Lesley-Ann Jones book.

Anyway, it all sounds a little sketchy to me, in particular - 'in 1985 she believed, contrary to other reports'. I don't think '85 is when he found out at all, for a number of reasons. There's the accounts of him finding out in Easter '87, and aside from that, Freddie seemed different in mood after '87, far more somber. Whereas you go back to '85 (Live Aid stands out in particular, and Freddie had a sparkle in his eye as if he was a man with no worries and a lot to live for - so I don't think it'd have been that early).
Like some others seem to think, I'd say Freddie had more reasons to suspect something was wrong in '86, but didn't know for sure till 'Easter 87, though he probably had a good idea by that point anyway because of his declining health, but it just wasn't confirmed for sure up until that moment.
I think his Live Aid mood was also to do with Jim. Who knows? It's also possible Barbara liked to put her own twist on things in a "I knew Freddie best" kind way, but then I don't really see any reason to doubt her either so that might be unfair of me to say. As for the cut finger incident, when was that exactly? late 85, early 86? It says in the book that Freddie initially left Barbara towards the end of '85, then went back a few months later. That might've been '86 (and mentions that "a 100 of our friends had died from AIDS by this time"). That might give Freddie a reason to be concerned if nothing else. But overall, it's all a bit vague. Especially when Barbra talks about marks on Freddie's face and dark blue bruises and putting a little make up on him. I guess that might fit the timeline...

Now you also wrote "Yet there are stories as late as 1985 that he was sleeping with people. IF (and of course that is an IF) this stuff is true, that makes him quite a horrible person. I don't buy the whole ignorance over it. Maybe the 70's but not in the mid 80's."

There was a lot of ignorance over HIV and AIDS in the mid 80s, To give you an idea, HIV testing wasn't introduced to the UK (and US) until 1985.
As for general ignorance, that was still around in the early 90s when Freddie died. I think it was his death that brought a fair bit of awareness to HIV/AIDS.
I don't think it started really dawning on Freddie until end of 85 or 86, and by that point, he'd slept with everyone in the picture already as far as I'm aware of. Why would that make Freddie a horrible person? Did Freddie look like a man with a death sentence on his mind in any of the footage in 85? I don't think so. Maybe on the Magic tour, Freddie came over a little differently somehow (that could also be because we know his behaviour changed too).

Then there's the other thing you say, which would predate all the above - "Freddie was selfish, I guess you forgot about the time when someone warned him about AIDS and his response was "darling fuck it". He was willing to put a cheap thrill over his life. That is pretty ignorant and pretty selfish for people who were close to him. "

When was that? In 83 or something? Freddie was most likely drunk, in a nightclub, a little high, and was in the mood where he didn't give a shit about anything and just wanted to have fun. Have you never felt like that? Kind of indestructible? Out having a good time? When you can be flippant about the most serious things in the spur of the moment?

It seems to me, Kahele33, that for some reason, you want to assume the worst all the time, or you're looking at Freddie as if he was a lot worse than what he really was. Or that's how it comes across to me anyway.

The other thing you said "He cheated with Mary and Jim. I think cheating is quite wrong and dishonest."

He'd no doubt agree himself. And by all accounts, didn't Freddie always feel bad about what happened with Mary on some level? And when it comes to Jim, that was at the very beginning, when Freddie wasn't really in relationship mode. Not fully. But he settled down and spent the rest of his life with Jim in the end didn't he? Don't be too quick to judge.

Kahle33, Stop being so condescending. Do you think that you're some sort of morality cop or something? Who do you think you are to pass judgement?

[QUOTE] [b]Kahle33 wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]

Look, if we have to take something from Freddie's life, it's not the bullshit cheating, drugs, and what not. Those are just meaningless games. If we take something, it's his drive for life and for doing what he loved to do with passion and inner vigor, despite his failing health and the fact that his imminent death was inescapable. From him we can learn that even when you feel you're so deep in a dark hole, you must still find the power to climb out of it, and to improve your situation and keep going. Most of us aren't facing death like Freddie was - so whatever it is that may block our path and put us down, we certainly can rise up above it and strive to continue.

[/QUOTE]

Well thats true and I do take that from him. But at the same time, I am just saying, he wouldn't have been anyone I'd want to know personally.

[/QUOTE]

I can't tell why you're like you are Kahle33.

A few things spring to mind. You're either a conservative Russian.... or very religious.... or you're about 13 years old with strict parents (possibly conservative Russians or religious) ... or you're just a bit prudish. Or something very similar to one of those, or maybe a mixture.

Or you're an Adam Lambert fan.

[QUOTE] [b]Kahle33 wrote:[/b]

From what I understand he knew in 1984 that he was infected, his GF at the time, Barabara? claimed that he didn't want her touching him when he cut his finger. So he knew.

Yet there are stories as late as 1985 that he was sleeping with people. IF (and of course that is an IF) this stuff is true, that makes him quite a horrible person. I don't buy the whole ignorance over it. Maybe the 70's but not in the mid 80's.

[/QUOTE]

I'm not trying to fight with you, Kahle33, but I can only repeat what I said before about no judging when you don't really know what happened. You would have to have followed Freddie's every move from the day he was born to the day he died to really know what sort of person he was. The book you read won't tell you the answer. There was a minefield of ignorance about HIV in the mid-80s, especially 1984, which was the year that the first testing became available (although not widely, that was the following year). There was a lot of disbelief that this was really happening - the concept of a virus that can lie dormant for 10 years and then suddenly start producing symptoms and kill you is not a difficult concept for us now, but back then people were struggling to come to terms with it. Can you imagine, what it must have been like? By the time the first unreliable tests were developed, people had been living for years with the fear of thinking they were ticking time bombs with no way of knowing when the bomb was going to go off (and AIDS symptoms start). From the time the illness came into public view until the first testing became available was several years.

It was a tragedy, and still is in many parts of the world.

Get the image of Freddie Mercury as an HIV-wielding sex-machine, lurking in clubs with his evil virus out of your head. It's ridiculous. And I'm just going to throw this out there... as you weren't there for every sexual encounter he had (were you?) he could even have used condoms. He could even have worn flippers and a tea-cosy on his head. It's none of your business.

"I just feel like many people give him a pass because he was extremely talented. Me, not so much"

You realise how very little currency your 'free pass' has, right? When he was ALIVE, he wouldn't have woken up in the morning, hands shaking with anxiety, going "kaloolie33 doesn't approve of the choices I made with my life!". Think about how little your judgement means now that he's fucking dead.

I'd really forgotten just how cunty some guests to this forum could be sometimes. What you think of his behaviour is completely irrelevant; you should be embarrassed for even bringing it up.

[QUOTE] [b]Day dop wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]Kahle33 wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]

Look, if we have to take something from Freddie's life, it's not the bullshit cheating, drugs, and what not. Those are just meaningless games. If we take something, it's his drive for life and for doing what he loved to do with passion and inner vigor, despite his failing health and the fact that his imminent death was inescapable. From him we can learn that even when you feel you're so deep in a dark hole, you must still find the power to climb out of it, and to improve your situation and keep going. Most of us aren't facing death like Freddie was - so whatever it is that may block our path and put us down, we certainly can rise up above it and strive to continue.

[/QUOTE]

Well thats true and I do take that from him. But at the same time, I am just saying, he wouldn't have been anyone I'd want to know personally.

[/QUOTE]

I can't tell why you're like you are Kahle33.

A few things spring to mind. You're either a conservative Russian.... or very religious.... or you're about 13 years old with strict parents (possibly conservative Russians or religious) ... or you're just a bit prudish. Or something very similar to one of those, or maybe a mixture.

Or you're an Adam Lambert fan. [/QUOTE]

I am 32 y/o same age as Freddie was in 1979. I am actually bisexual but am in a relationship with a woman.

I am far from conservative but I've never cheated on anyone. Never done hard drugs, and tried to make smart choices.

I am not the same person I was in my 20's. The party days. I am a lot more mature now. To think that Freddie at this age was living so reckless doesn't really register to me. Pretty immature of him to be honest.

[QUOTE] [b]Zebonka12 wrote:[/b]

"I just feel like many people give him a pass because he was extremely talented. Me, not so much"

You realise how very little currency your 'free pass' has, right? When he was ALIVE, he wouldn't have woken up in the morning, hands shaking with anxiety, going "kaloolie33 doesn't approve of the choices I made with my life!". Think about how little your judgement means now that he's fucking dead.

I'd really forgotten just how cunty some guests to this forum could be sometimes. What you think of his behaviour is completely irrelevant; you should be embarrassed for even bringing it up.[/QUOTE]

This sounds an awful lot like you are just trying to remain blindly loyal to Freddie on a personal level because of his music and willing to give him a pass on his behavior because he was musically talented. I am not.

That being said, it isn't a big deal really. As I stated I idolize him, but I think a lot of people overlook his behavior because of his music.

[QUOTE] [b]Day dop wrote:[/b]

Kahle33 wrote: "Drug addict, to me snorting coke is a drug problem."

It's not necessarily a drug problem at all. Sounds to me like you're a little naive when it comes to drugs.

Kahle33 also wrote: "From what I understand he knew in 1984 that he was infected, his GF at the time, Barabara? claimed that he didn't want her touching him when he cut his finger. So he knew. "

If the book you're talking about is Freddie Mercury: The Definitive Biography: By Lesley-Ann Jones (a bit of a controversial one) then here's what's written. "When we first met, he was either denying it to himself, or he simply didn't know," she [Barbara] said. "After he made his first test eventually [in 1985 she believed, contrary to other reports, though she could not confirm that prompted him to get tested], it changed his life."

Right, so you've automatically assumed the worst Kahele33? That he knew in 1984, just going by what Barbara said, speculating over two possibilities, in a Lesley-Ann Jones book.

Anyway, it all sounds a little sketchy to me, in particular - 'in 1985 she believed, contrary to other reports'. I don't think '85 is when he found out at all, for a number of reasons. There's the accounts of him finding out in Easter '87, and aside from that, Freddie seemed different in mood after '87, far more somber. Whereas you go back to '85 (Live Aid stands out in particular, and Freddie had a sparkle in his eye as if he was a man with no worries and a lot to live for - so I don't think it'd have been that early).
Like some others seem to think, I'd say Freddie had more reasons to suspect something was wrong in '86, but didn't know for sure till 'Easter 87, though he probably had a good idea by that point anyway because of his declining health, but it just wasn't confirmed for sure up until that moment.
I think his Live Aid mood was also to do with Jim. Who knows? It's also possible Barbara liked to put her own twist on things in a "I knew Freddie best" kind way, but then I don't really see any reason to doubt her either so that might be unfair of me to say. As for the cut finger incident, when was that exactly? late 85, early 86? It says in the book that Freddie initially left Barbara towards the end of '85, then went back a few months later. That might've been '86 (and mentions that "a 100 of our friends had died from AIDS by this time"). That might give Freddie a reason to be concerned if nothing else. But overall, it's all a bit vague. Especially when Barbra talks about marks on Freddie's face and dark blue bruises and putting a little make up on him. I guess that might fit the timeline...

Now you also wrote "Yet there are stories as late as 1985 that he was sleeping with people. IF (and of course that is an IF) this stuff is true, that makes him quite a horrible person. I don't buy the whole ignorance over it. Maybe the 70's but not in the mid 80's."

There was a lot of ignorance over HIV and AIDS in the mid 80s, To give you an idea, HIV testing wasn't introduced to the UK (and US) until 1985.
As for general ignorance, that was still around in the early 90s when Freddie died. I think it was his death that brought a fair bit of awareness to HIV/AIDS.
I don't think it started really dawning on Freddie until end of 85 or 86, and by that point, he'd slept with everyone in the picture already as far as I'm aware of. Why would that make Freddie a horrible person? Did Freddie look like a man with a death sentence on his mind in any of the footage in 85? I don't think so. Maybe on the Magic tour, Freddie came over a little differently somehow (that could also be because we know his behaviour changed too).

Then there's the other thing you say, which would predate all the above - "Freddie was selfish, I guess you forgot about the time when someone warned him about AIDS and his response was "darling fuck it". He was willing to put a cheap thrill over his life. That is pretty ignorant and pretty selfish for people who were close to him. "

When was that? In 83 or something? Freddie was most likely drunk, in a nightclub, a little high, and was in the mood where he didn't give a shit about anything and just wanted to have fun. Have you never felt like that? Kind of indestructible? Out having a good time? When you can be flippant about the most serious things in the spur of the moment?

It seems to me, Kahele33, that for some reason, you want to assume the worst all the time, or you're looking at Freddie as if he was a lot worse than what he really was. Or that's how it comes across to me anyway.

The other thing you said "He cheated with Mary and Jim. I think cheating is quite wrong and dishonest."

He'd no doubt agree himself. And by all accounts, didn't Freddie always feel bad about what happened with Mary on some level? And when it comes to Jim, that was at the very beginning, when Freddie wasn't really in relationship mode. Not fully. But he settled down and spent the rest of his life with Jim in the end didn't he? Don't be too quick to judge.



[/QUOTE]

Well I don't think you can make a basis on what he knew and when he knew by a twinkle in his eye or an offhanded comment.

I am just going by waht I've read, and while I know that some of it may not be true, both Mary and Barbara said Freddie was aware of his HIV in 1984 or at least knew he was sick and that it could be spread.

I don't think I am looking at this is a negative way. I think it is pretty objective. I am not a Freddie basher. I am calling it like I see it based on what I've read.

I think some people here aren't looking at Freddie in an objective light. I think it should be obvious to most that Freddie was a flawed individual who wrote great music.

[QUOTE] [b]Zamidoo wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]Kahle33 wrote:[/b]

From what I understand he knew in 1984 that he was infected, his GF at the time, Barabara? claimed that he didn't want her touching him when he cut his finger. So he knew.

Yet there are stories as late as 1985 that he was sleeping with people. IF (and of course that is an IF) this stuff is true, that makes him quite a horrible person. I don't buy the whole ignorance over it. Maybe the 70's but not in the mid 80's.

[/QUOTE]

I'm not trying to fight with you, Kahle33, but I can only repeat what I said before about no judging when you don't really know what happened. You would have to have followed Freddie's every move from the day he was born to the day he died to really know what sort of person he was. The book you read won't tell you the answer. There was a minefield of ignorance about HIV in the mid-80s, especially 1984, which was the year that the first testing became available (although not widely, that was the following year). There was a lot of disbelief that this was really happening - the concept of a virus that can lie dormant for 10 years and then suddenly start producing symptoms and kill you is not a difficult concept for us now, but back then people were struggling to come to terms with it. Can you imagine, what it must have been like? By the time the first unreliable tests were developed, people had been living for years with the fear of thinking they were ticking time bombs with no way of knowing when the bomb was going to go off (and AIDS symptoms start). From the time the illness came into public view until the first testing became available was several years.

It was a tragedy, and still is in many parts of the world.

Get the image of Freddie Mercury as an HIV-wielding sex-machine, lurking in clubs with his evil virus out of your head. It's ridiculous. And I'm just going to throw this out there... as you weren't there for every sexual encounter he had (were you?) he could even have used condoms. He could even have worn flippers and a tea-cosy on his head. It's none of your business.[/QUOTE]

Well nobody knows anything FOR SURE. Do you really know that Freddie wrote Bohemian Rhapsody? Were you actually there? So you don't know FOR SURE.

See? It can get rather silly.

But you are correct, I don't know, for sure and it isn't any of my business. But I can still judge him. Can't I? Just like others here judge him in a positive light based on action they really know nothing about, I am basing my opinion on what I've see about him.

You have to admit, there is going to be a bias towards thinking he was a great person because he was one of the best musicians on the 20th century.

I am going by what I've read. That's all I can say. I think its a pretty good bet that Freddie was a bigtime clubber. This is based on interviews with the bands themselves. Afterall Freddie did wear a gay bar shirt in the Don't Stop me Now video. I don't think he was intentionally wanting in infect people. But I think he was reckless...I think any Queen insider will tell you that. Even Brian May said that.

Oh, please don't bring up the 'mineshaft' t-shirt. Of course he was a clubber. How he picked up anyone with the haircut he had in that video is another matter, but no-one is disputing that.

Correct me if I am wrong, but what you're you're basically saying is, if you (as you) behaved now as you believe Freddie Mercury did 30-35 years ago, you wouldn't be a good person. I get that.

I don't judge Freddie Mercury by myself and what would constitute being a 'good' person for me because our lives and circumstances are way, way too different. It's impossible. It's a non-starter. Especially with someone like Freddie Mercury, who was so exceptional in so many of his circumstances. I think that's basically what most other people posting here are saying, in various ways. Because it's the only conclusion you can come to when you're faced with the dilemma you outline in your original post.