In fact in the UK, nobody really spoke about AIDS as a social issue until Freddie Mercury died. Before then it was something that happened, and it was a bad thing and a bit of a shame, and we were all a bit scared of it, and it was really just for "poofs". Now, although Freddie Mercury was gay, and we all knew it, his popularity transcended is sexuality meaning that many, many very straight and actually homophobic men were fans of Queen, so his death really did have a profound effect on the whole population. Of course there were many people who used it as an opportunity to condemn those terrible homosexuals and their wayward lifestyle, and isn't good that we're not like that..... (I have heard that before), and there were people in the UK saying that AIDS is of course God's punishment (which is outrageous on so many levels, not least because it presumes the accuser must be leading a life so perfect as to be above all reproach), but in the population at large, many people in that first year after Freddie died, felt it a great loss.
Of course, in the subsequent years, between Freddie's death and 'Made In Heaven' being released, Freddie went back to being a figure of ridicule again, and homosexuality was once again, even in the mid 1990s, seen as something terrible.
[/QUOTE]
Great post in total, and this part reminds me of the fact that the BBC wouldn't put a picture of Freddie on the cover of the Radio Times for the week of the Tribute Concert in '92 because 'it wouldn't be appropriate'.
The Real Wizard · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]Mr.QueenFan wrote:[/b]
That´s why i believe - just my perception - that even though Brian, Roger and John loved Freddie, deep down there must have been (at least around 1988-1991) some resentful feelings towards Freddie and the careless way with which he handled himself. Not only did he died and suffered because of it, but he also made everybody around him suffer when they saw him that way. And in the end, that lifestyle put an end to Queen!
[/QUOTE]
Killer Queen and Bohemian Rhapsody are about Freddie coming to grips with his sexuality. These are the songs that put Queen on the map.
His sexuality led him to the abyss that ultimately took his life.
All too often with artists the thing that that makes you great is also your greatest foe.
Costa86 · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]miraclesteinway wrote:[/b]
I strongly believe that had gay people actually been treated like real people from the start, rather than as the untermensch, then the whole AIDS thing would have been far less of a problem in that particular group at that particular time.
[/QUOTE]
This gay stigma thing, especially as it manifested itself in the first 60 or so years of the 20th century, is something very recent. In ancient Greece and Rome, gay people were treated as a normal part of society.
[QUOTE] [b]miraclesteinway wrote:[/b]
Of course, what we mustn't forget is that, by 1976 or so, Africa was already so deep in the shit with AIDS with a pandemic being pretty much unavoidable for that continent. I suppose the positive outcome of the Western and Northern AIDS epidemic is that it pushed people to research a cure, or at least treatment which is sometimes being distributed to the poor in Africa. This is a whole different issue and it just shows how the Western White world really views people from other racial backgrounds, economic status and culture, and who used to be far enough away not to give a crap about. Terrible really.
[/QUOTE]
The African AIDS problem has many, many facets. One of the very positive things which the Bush administration did, is that it allocated billions of USD to supply drugs to Africa. This has had a huge amount of benefit on the continent, and many people's lives have been saved.
One of the main problems in Africa is supplying drugs to regions which many times lack any proper road infrastructure and health services. In some parts of Africa, some peope don't even keep time the same way as we do - how are they going to take their drug regiment at the specific times required? - this is very important to do if he drugs are to work. This is just an example of the issues. They can be overcome, but it's been a very difficult road.
And I think this guilt complex which the Western world has towards Africa is to a large extent ridiculous, especially at this stage. Western countries have poured billions and billions into Africa, to try to prop it up. Where the money has gone is a matter for debate, but the fact is we tried. It is Africa which has to lift itself from the abyss it is in. The fact is Africa is descending into chaos. And everybody is leaving, coming to Europe. Huge parts of the continent are virtually empty. Is this the soltution - a mass movement of Africans to Europe? It is not the solution, but it is unstoppable now. African countries need to take responsibility for their mess, and Western countries have to let go of their idiotic guilt complex. We've paid for colonialism.
The Real Wizard · Member since
Excellent discussion, folks !
on my way up · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Mr.QueenFan wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Nitroboy wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Mr.QueenFan wrote: [/b]
I´m pretty sure that everybody surrounding Freddie - including Brian, Roger and John - new that Freddie was an accident waiting to happen. How could they not sense that?
(...)
[/QUOTE]
Quite an ignorant point of view/opinion.
You have to keep in mind that back when it all started, people didn't know better. It took some time before people knew what the hell it was and how the thing spread. You also have to keep in mind that even WITH the knowledge of HIV/AIDS, mistakes and accidents happen.
This "he brought it upon himself" attitude is really ignorant.[/QUOTE]
No it´s not, Nitroboy!
Freddie wasn´t ignorant! He was careless! He was the biggest rockstar of his time and he had the best doctors and people advising him. He knew about consequenses.
You are right about mistakes. But Freddie didn´t make mistakes! You cannot compare Freddie to the normal guy on the street. As an homosexual he was very aware of the "cancer of the gays" as it was called at the time.
If you read his bios, like i did, his behaviour around 84-85 in Munich and Brazil is something that makes you wonder "how was that possible?" "What did he expected?"
In Rock in Rio he was consuming drugs, staying at a different hotels from the rest of the band, and fucking around five male prostitutes a night in Brazil! Random guys his staff would pick up at gay bars or whathever.
In Germany Barbara Valentin told the same thing about Freddie getting home with several guys at a time.
I respect your opinion and you are generaly right about everything that you say about accidents and other things. But with somebody with this kind of behaviour it was expected what the end result would be.
We may not want to accept it, but it was self destructive behaviour. Freddie was losing his voice big time. I doubt that he could have go on making tours even if he didn´t got aids. His body was being pushed to the limit.
But i will not turn this topic into another discussion about AIDS. I just don´t appreciate you calling me an ignorant when all his bios state the same thing. I was talking about Freddie in particlar, not people in general!
[/QUOTE]
All this is a moot point - for one simple reason - when Freddie was in all likelihood infected, the existence of a mysterious illness hadn't yet been publicly noticed by scientists. So even if he had stopped sleeping around when the stories of a mysterious illness first emerged, in 1981, he'd most likely still have been doomed, because he probably was infected around 1979/80, when the disease was unknown, and you couldn't blame folks for sleeping around, because they didn't know they could catch something so deadly.
We can deduce this through the knowledge we have of the progression of HIV. Now, this said, there are cases when the virus takes a shorter or longer period to start showing symptoms in a person and to develop into AIDS. So for all we know, he might have got it in 1981, '82 or '83, in which case stopping the partying in '81 might have saved him.
Also, there were strains of the disease, early mutations actually, which themselves had a shorter latency period, irregardless of the person they were inside (this was especially true of some strains of HIV which were going around in the 1970s in Africa, and could lead to AIDS in only a couple of years - scientists found this out in the 90s when they were tracking down the origins of HIV). But it is unlikely that any such strains were going around in North America and Europe in the early 80s - by then the average latency period of eight to ten years had already establised itself in the virus, and remains the same to this day.
So it would have probably been useless if Freddie stopped the partying anyway. Probably, not certainly. Because, to compound matters even more, there is also something called HIV superinfection, when someone gets infected multiple times with different strains, and this might (depending on which study you subscribe to!) aggrevate the disease. I'd bet my packed lunch that Freddie was infected multiple times.
Just a final comment: I don't think anyone should be angry at Freddie. Don't you think the poor man regretted his mistakes enough? I'm sure, when he found himself in that horrible state in 1990/91, he wished he had been more careful. I don't believe his 'no regrets' macho bullshit. He said that when he was healthy. He paid enough for his mistakes, and we shouldn't be commenting on how reckless he was. [/QUOTE]As much as I love Freddie, it's so clear he had a very selfdestructive attitude in the early eighties. Even when the potential consequences of his behaviour were very well-known to every one, he didn't change his ways...
And then, by the mid-eighties, when most probably some of his friends started to get sick and die, he was poor in his judgment again. Instead of hoping to miraculously escape the illness he should have had proper screening. He waited and waited and just ignored the issue.
I'm 100% sure that Freddie's immune system was already under very heavy attack in 1986 and during the Magic tour. Still he chose to look the other way until he was nearly death... Let's face it, by the time he got his diagnosis in 1987, he was already weakened to a great extent by the disease. The virus had already grown strong. Had he started a cure years earlier - while still in the HIV-status - his chances would have been far better to make it to the nineties and survive...
All the above is of course said with a much better understanding of HIV/aids than what Freddie had to deal with it. There was even a time when doctors thought the treatment only needed to start when a patient started to show symptoms, which is entirely wrong. The earlier after the infection the better the drugs work and the easier it is to keep the immunesystem on a good level.
But Freddie's life - the way it was lived and the way it ended and the music he produced along the way inspired by all the different experiences in his life (good and bad) - made him the legend he is today...
Barcelona would never have been as epic had Freddie lived another 20 years... The show must go on would never have resonated "through the eons" as it does now, simply because all that stuff was grounded in what was happening to Freddie and the band. Their best stuff was produced when heavy emotions affected the personal lives of the band members (and when they were young and had to prove everything, that also evokes a certain dynamism of course)
on my way up · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]on my way up wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Mr.QueenFan wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Nitroboy wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Mr.QueenFan wrote: [/b]
I´m pretty sure that everybody surrounding Freddie - including Brian, Roger and John - new that Freddie was an accident waiting to happen. How could they not sense that?
(...)
[/QUOTE]
Quite an ignorant point of view/opinion.
You have to keep in mind that back when it all started, people didn't know better. It took some time before people knew what the hell it was and how the thing spread. You also have to keep in mind that even WITH the knowledge of HIV/AIDS, mistakes and accidents happen.
This "he brought it upon himself" attitude is really ignorant.[/QUOTE]
No it´s not, Nitroboy!
Freddie wasn´t ignorant! He was careless! He was the biggest rockstar of his time and he had the best doctors and people advising him. He knew about consequenses.
You are right about mistakes. But Freddie didn´t make mistakes! You cannot compare Freddie to the normal guy on the street. As an homosexual he was very aware of the "cancer of the gays" as it was called at the time.
If you read his bios, like i did, his behaviour around 84-85 in Munich and Brazil is something that makes you wonder "how was that possible?" "What did he expected?"
In Rock in Rio he was consuming drugs, staying at a different hotels from the rest of the band, and fucking around five male prostitutes a night in Brazil! Random guys his staff would pick up at gay bars or whathever.
In Germany Barbara Valentin told the same thing about Freddie getting home with several guys at a time.
I respect your opinion and you are generaly right about everything that you say about accidents and other things. But with somebody with this kind of behaviour it was expected what the end result would be.
We may not want to accept it, but it was self destructive behaviour. Freddie was losing his voice big time. I doubt that he could have go on making tours even if he didn´t got aids. His body was being pushed to the limit.
But i will not turn this topic into another discussion about AIDS. I just don´t appreciate you calling me an ignorant when all his bios state the same thing. I was talking about Freddie in particlar, not people in general!
[/QUOTE]
All this is a moot point - for one simple reason - when Freddie was in all likelihood infected, the existence of a mysterious illness hadn't yet been publicly noticed by scientists. So even if he had stopped sleeping around when the stories of a mysterious illness first emerged, in 1981, he'd most likely still have been doomed, because he probably was infected around 1979/80, when the disease was unknown, and you couldn't blame folks for sleeping around, because they didn't know they could catch something so deadly.
We can deduce this through the knowledge we have of the progression of HIV. Now, this said, there are cases when the virus takes a shorter or longer period to start showing symptoms in a person and to develop into AIDS. So for all we know, he might have got it in 1981, '82 or '83, in which case stopping the partying in '81 might have saved him.
Also, there were strains of the disease, early mutations actually, which themselves had a shorter latency period, irregardless of the person they were inside (this was especially true of some strains of HIV which were going around in the 1970s in Africa, and could lead to AIDS in only a couple of years - scientists found this out in the 90s when they were tracking down the origins of HIV). But it is unlikely that any such strains were going around in North America and Europe in the early 80s - by then the average latency period of eight to ten years had already establised itself in the virus, and remains the same to this day.
So it would have probably been useless if Freddie stopped the partying anyway. Probably, not certainly. Because, to compound matters even more, there is also something called HIV superinfection, when someone gets infected multiple times with different strains, and this might (depending on which study you subscribe to!) aggrevate the disease. I'd bet my packed lunch that Freddie was infected multiple times.
Just a final comment: I don't think anyone should be angry at Freddie. Don't you think the poor man regretted his mistakes enough? I'm sure, when he found himself in that horrible state in 1990/91, he wished he had been more careful. I don't believe his 'no regrets' macho bullshit. He said that when he was healthy. He paid enough for his mistakes, and we shouldn't be commenting on how reckless he was. [/QUOTE]As much as I love Freddie, it's so clear he had a very selfdestructive attitude in the early eighties. Even when the potential consequences of his behaviour were very well-known to every one, he didn't change his ways...
And then, by the mid-eighties, when most probably some of his friends started to get sick and die, he was poor in his judgment again. Instead of hoping to miraculously escape the illness he should have had proper screening. He waited and waited and just ignored the issue.
I'm 100% sure that Freddie's immune system was already under very heavy attack in 1986 and during the Magic tour. Still he chose to look the other way until he was nearly death... Let's face it, by the time he got his diagnosis in 1987, he was already weakened to a great extent by the disease. The virus had already grown strong. Had he started a cure years earlier - while still in the HIV-status - his chances would have been far better to make it to the nineties and survive...
All the above - to Freddie's defense - is of course said with a much better understanding of HIV/aids than what Freddie had to deal with it. There was even a time when doctors thought the treatment only needed to start when a patient started to show symptoms, which is entirely wrong. The earlier after the infection the better the drugs work and the easier it is to keep the immunesystem on a good level.
But Freddie's life - the way it was lived and the way it ended and the music he produced along the way inspired by all the different experiences in his life (good and bad) - made him the legend he is today...
Barcelona would never have been as epic had Freddie lived another 20 years... The show must go on would never have resonated "through the eons" as it does now, simply because all that stuff was grounded in what was happening to Freddie and the band. Their best stuff was produced when heavy emotions affected the personal lives of the band members (and when they were young and had to prove everything, that also evokes a certain dynamism of course)
[/QUOTE]
Costa86 · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]on my way up wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Mr.QueenFan wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Nitroboy wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Mr.QueenFan wrote: [/b]
I´m pretty sure that everybody surrounding Freddie - including Brian, Roger and John - new that Freddie was an accident waiting to happen. How could they not sense that?
(...)
[/QUOTE]
Quite an ignorant point of view/opinion.
You have to keep in mind that back when it all started, people didn't know better. It took some time before people knew what the hell it was and how the thing spread. You also have to keep in mind that even WITH the knowledge of HIV/AIDS, mistakes and accidents happen.
This "he brought it upon himself" attitude is really ignorant.[/QUOTE]
No it´s not, Nitroboy!
Freddie wasn´t ignorant! He was careless! He was the biggest rockstar of his time and he had the best doctors and people advising him. He knew about consequenses.
You are right about mistakes. But Freddie didn´t make mistakes! You cannot compare Freddie to the normal guy on the street. As an homosexual he was very aware of the "cancer of the gays" as it was called at the time.
If you read his bios, like i did, his behaviour around 84-85 in Munich and Brazil is something that makes you wonder "how was that possible?" "What did he expected?"
In Rock in Rio he was consuming drugs, staying at a different hotels from the rest of the band, and fucking around five male prostitutes a night in Brazil! Random guys his staff would pick up at gay bars or whathever.
In Germany Barbara Valentin told the same thing about Freddie getting home with several guys at a time.
I respect your opinion and you are generaly right about everything that you say about accidents and other things. But with somebody with this kind of behaviour it was expected what the end result would be.
We may not want to accept it, but it was self destructive behaviour. Freddie was losing his voice big time. I doubt that he could have go on making tours even if he didn´t got aids. His body was being pushed to the limit.
But i will not turn this topic into another discussion about AIDS. I just don´t appreciate you calling me an ignorant when all his bios state the same thing. I was talking about Freddie in particlar, not people in general!
[/QUOTE]
All this is a moot point - for one simple reason - when Freddie was in all likelihood infected, the existence of a mysterious illness hadn't yet been publicly noticed by scientists. So even if he had stopped sleeping around when the stories of a mysterious illness first emerged, in 1981, he'd most likely still have been doomed, because he probably was infected around 1979/80, when the disease was unknown, and you couldn't blame folks for sleeping around, because they didn't know they could catch something so deadly.
We can deduce this through the knowledge we have of the progression of HIV. Now, this said, there are cases when the virus takes a shorter or longer period to start showing symptoms in a person and to develop into AIDS. So for all we know, he might have got it in 1981, '82 or '83, in which case stopping the partying in '81 might have saved him.
Also, there were strains of the disease, early mutations actually, which themselves had a shorter latency period, irregardless of the person they were inside (this was especially true of some strains of HIV which were going around in the 1970s in Africa, and could lead to AIDS in only a couple of years - scientists found this out in the 90s when they were tracking down the origins of HIV). But it is unlikely that any such strains were going around in North America and Europe in the early 80s - by then the average latency period of eight to ten years had already establised itself in the virus, and remains the same to this day.
So it would have probably been useless if Freddie stopped the partying anyway. Probably, not certainly. Because, to compound matters even more, there is also something called HIV superinfection, when someone gets infected multiple times with different strains, and this might (depending on which study you subscribe to!) aggrevate the disease. I'd bet my packed lunch that Freddie was infected multiple times.
Just a final comment: I don't think anyone should be angry at Freddie. Don't you think the poor man regretted his mistakes enough? I'm sure, when he found himself in that horrible state in 1990/91, he wished he had been more careful. I don't believe his 'no regrets' macho bullshit. He said that when he was healthy. He paid enough for his mistakes, and we shouldn't be commenting on how reckless he was. [/QUOTE]As much as I love Freddie, it's so clear he had a very selfdestructive attitude in the early eighties. Even when the potential consequences of his behaviour were very well-known to every one, he didn't change his ways...
And then, by the mid-eighties, when most probably some of his friends started to get sick and die, he was poor in his judgment again. Instead of hoping to miraculously escape the illness he should have had proper screening. He waited and waited and just ignored the issue.
I'm 100% sure that Freddie's immune system was already under very heavy attack in 1986 and during the Magic tour. Still he chose to look the other way until he was nearly death... Let's face it, by the time he got his diagnosis in 1987, he was already weakened to a great extent by the disease. The virus had already grown strong. Had he started a cure years earlier - while still in the HIV-status - his chances would have been far better to make it to the nineties and survive...
All the above is of course said with a much better understanding of HIV/aids than what Freddie had to deal with it. There was even a time when doctors thought the treatment only needed to start when a patient started to show symptoms, which is entirely wrong. The earlier after the infection the better the drugs work and the easier it is to keep the immunesystem on a good level.
But Freddie's life - the way it was lived and the way it ended and the music he produced along the way inspired by all the different experiences in his life (good and bad) - made him the legend he is today...
Barcelona would never have been as epic had Freddie lived another 20 years... The show must go on would never have resonated "through the eons" as it does now, simply because all that stuff was grounded in what was happening to Freddie and the band. Their best stuff was produced when heavy emotions affected the personal lives of the band members (and when they were young and had to prove everything, that also evokes a certain dynamism of course)
[/QUOTE]
To be honest I don't think it would have made one iota of difference if Freddie found out about his HIV status earlier. This is because the only drug which had any efficacy, AZT, was only approved for HIV treatment in 1987 - which is the year Freddie started taking it. And AZT alone was never going to give him more than a few years of life at best, because the virus quickly became resistant to it through its very frequent mutations.
Kenny Everett lived till 1995, but he still died too early to benefit from the 1996 advent of the HAART drugs.
It's true that Freddie ran from it - but he did so because nothing he could have done before 1987 would have made much difference. And he knew he was positive in 1985 anyway.
splicksplack · Member since
For non-UK people, originally from NYC, PG is a well known DJ and rock historian in the UK. He aslo edited The Guinness Book of British Hit Singles and related titles.
Here's some facts (rather than the usual Gambaccini is a wanker).
Paul and Freddie were out on the London gay scene a lot in the 80's .
They, as celebrities, would and did bump into each other a lot (for instance Heaven's Star Bar).
I got to know PG when he was 'friendly' with Limahl (Kajagoogoo) and he was most certainly not a wanker.
I was introduced through a friend and he was kind enough to take away one of my cassette demos, review it and post back.
He was always charming and generous with his time.
To abuse him on the basis that you don't like his voice or you 'suspect' he's bigging himself up is just ignorant.
He was inducted into the Radio Academy Hall of Fame in 2005.
