I am an American, living in Maryland who is an independed and dislikes almost ALL of Mr. Bush's policies.
But I'm going to have to disagree with Brian on a few things. I do agree that the West needs to work on the psychological end of it--actually talking to governments, findinf out and UNDERSTANDING why we are hated and what we can constructively do about it.
However, there ARE some militants that DO need to be stamped out. If we work on dialogue and such, we can get the majority of the Muslim world on our side, but not the extremists, or men like Bin Laden. They want to see the downfall of the West, for their decadence and cultural hedgemony. And we are decadent, and we do have a hedgemony. And we need to scale back drastically. But I think it's fair to say that somebody like Bin Laden and other militants will not stop at that. There will ALWAYS be something that they are angry at America and the West for.
And these people, these violent, heartless people, need to be stamped out. Not Muslims. But groups like Al-Qaeda.
Brian May said we should take the "Nelson Mandela approach." Well, why isn't Bin Laden? He could be taking that approach as well. If he used his power over the people that admire him as well as his creativity, savvy and eloquence (as much as I hate him, he has those traits) he could rally mass support against the treacheries of the West. But does he? No. He and his organization responds with atrocities like 9/11, Madrid and London.
I hate Bush, but I support Afghanistan. And even Iraq.
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I think we all get fraustrated because we are afraid a little and do no understand the mentality of cold blooded killers any more than we do people who for example molest and kill children. We need concrete reasons. Accepting that people are just evil is hard.
i don´t know why people in america don´t understand that their leaders and theirs politics created bin ladens of this world
and not just created them, but trained them also
why? because they served a purpuse
but now it´s all coming back in this horrible way
you just have to take reponsabillity
you dont know why this is going on?
you dont want to know why, or you just don´t care
it´s easier to destroy iraq because of alleged wmd
and they still sell you that bullshit
over and over again.....
everything usa does is for their interest, not for interest of the world
you have to re-evaluate things that you are doing around the world
bringing down some govermants, whils supporting those who serve you ( saudi arabia pops up )
i guess vietnam didn´t teach your leaders nothing
edit
usa wanted to bring down saddam
usa army liberated kuwait and had a chance to bring down husien
they gave word to shiits in iraq and than just left
after that saddam killed thousands of shiits, and slaughterd kurds
i mean wtf
why do you do things that you do
interest
and we can go back when saddam was ally against ajatollah
i mean you created all of those creatures and now you are creating more
and now the terror has come to usa and europe soil because of that politics
S.M. You are right, sometimes things do come back and haunt us. That happens in out own lives but does it mean we deserve it? Bib Laden was trained and armed to fight the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. I don't see it as being wrong assisting people to protect their country. Who would know the Taliban would gain power and people like Bin Laden become what they are.
Finally, at the risk of being redundant, no-one said there were wmd's in Iraq. Try and find direct quotes from Bush or Blair if you can. No Michael Moore does not count. Simply put, we wanted to make sure he had none, he would not let us check and so we went to look for ourselves. Whether you are for or against military action, this is a fact. People need to try a little harder and see beyond "I hate Bush and Blair" and so I will believe anything negative about them no-matter who says it and where the info comes from.
One of my favorite presidents was Clinton, and Republicans tried so hard to bring him down a peg or two and non-supporters loved it. Democrats rightly saw this as being nothing but partisn politics. Now the Dems are doing exactly the same thing. Truth or whats right mean nothing to some, it's all about proving a point and bringing the other side down.
Good discussion though guys. Those of you who say we need to look at ourselves and understand why we are hated, I would love to hear from you exactly WHAT you think we should do. How do we make terrorists like us and leave us alone?
Finally, at the risk of being redundant, no-one said there were wmd's in Iraq. Try and find direct quotes from Bush or Blair if you can. No Michael Moore does not count. Simply put, we wanted to make sure he had none, he would not let us check and so we went to look for ourselves. Whether you are for or against military action, this is a fact. People need to try a little harder and see beyond "I hate Bush and Blair" and so I will believe anything negative about them no-matter who says it and where the info comes from.
One of my favorite presidents was Clinton, and Republicans tried so hard to bring him down a peg or two and non-supporters loved it. Democrats rightly saw this as being nothing but partisn politics. Now the Dems are doing exactly the same thing. Truth or whats right mean nothing to some, it's all about proving a point and bringing the other side down.
Good discussion though guys. Those of you who say we need to look at ourselves and understand why we are hated, I would love to hear from you exactly WHAT you think we should do. How do we make terrorists like us and leave us alone?
Brian is a tool
i never said that
that should not happen to anyone
I know. It was a rhetorical question. May have come accross wrong so sorry. Did not mean to insinuate you did think that.
I'd rather see Roger Waters as President of the US. he now officially lives in the US!
Read his comments this morning on his views of how we are of the bad guys ( I should have have known we deserve to die) and wanted to ger a little understanding myself. I live in the USA by the way and despite what he says,...a climate of fear, which, sadly, the U.S.A. is already experiencing...is not true.
I think we all get fraustrated because we are afraid a little and do no understand the mentality of cold blooded killers any more than we do people who for example molest and kill children. We need concrete reasons. Accepting that people are just evil is hard.
want to see our politicians answer the question 'Why?' Why do people hate us this much? What can we do to change this? It's no use thinking we are dealing with a small bunch of maniacs, as seems to be the popular view, who need to be 'stamped out.'
I have a few tips that may help:
1. NEVER say anything that may be even remotly offensive to islam. Do not even show negative news on tv. They hate this. Check out Rushdie or the Dutch filmaker that was murdered.
2. Make music that is only pleasing to god
3. Teach Islam in the schools. If we are evil than we must try to be like them and show we are not.
4.Talking of how we are perceived of a s greedy, how much are you worth Brian? Or is that different?
5. Pay $500 for a barrel of oil. That is what Bin Laden said we should be doing. Sell it to the infidels but make them pay.
6. Take out all westerners from the middle east, no matter who they are or what they do. Laden has stated clearly that we do not belong there. We are the infidel.
7. Continue with humanitarian aid and increase it as much as we can afford. They may hate us but we have to show we are better and continue to send them money.
8. Remove troops from Bosnia. If the slaugher continues, well the terrorists can step in and help. Like they give a damm about their own people anyway.
9.Do NOT develop electric cars. If we do not need oil, these people have NOTHING, and that would be hatefull on our behalf right?
Look, I could go on and I respect Brians views, but it is a relativly small percentage of people who want to do us harm. Do you really want to change your way of live out of fear, and hope they leave you alone until the next time they want something.
While not perfect, do you really think the USA and England is evil? If so, how could you live there? Must be non-evil places you can be.
Lastly, knowing what Sadam was doing to his people (women and children) daily, do you not think it's evil to do nothing? "What a shame, we will do a concert and send money". But they still die. Singing kumbaya and hoping does not make dictators go away and does not relieve most of the worlds suffering. never has, probably never will.
Oh, finally a clear, proud answer to hypocrisy!!!!
I haven't read the replies to this thread yet. I just wanted to tell you how happy I am to finally see a polite but still strong statement against the hypocrits who I feel are taking over our Western world and are supporting the enemy rather than helping in the cause for peace.
We all agree we have many flaws...we all agree love and compassion are wonderful and necessary, but let's get real. Let's not mix up good from evil.
Brian proved to be just another face in the crowd of the billionaire celebrities who use beautiful, empty words to appear compassionate and generous. After all, their words mean little to nothing. They must not take decisions anyway. I'm not even sure people like Brian are in good faith. Of course he knows very well that if he was born in those societies he preaches understanding for, he would not even be allowed to express his opinion, let alone to sing about sex, parties, and lead the life he led.
I'm tired of this political correctness. I am the victim! And I'm tired. This attitude is just working against us.
Fairy
And I don't know if some people on this board are ignorant or are playing ignorant. The war on terror began AFTER and not BEFORE we (the US and the West) were attacked on Sept 11.
Brian is a tool
No, Brian is a smart guy. The perfect hypocrit.
I think your comment about living in the USA explains a lot, coops. Americans, on the whole (I'm Canadian, with family living in the US), are the most insular people on earth.
Yeah, you dirty Americans!! LOL. Learn from others:
France, for example, was and is totally against the war on terror. It praises dialogue, love and peace. And now...they're closing their borders!!
Spain: they suffered an atrocious attack to civilians. The day after, the great majority of people votes for the Government who opposed the war on terror! So now attacks are ruled out, having done what Bin Laden suggested...
I call this being coward and hypocrit.
I prefer the mistakes of the Americans to the ambiguities of the so called pacifist countries. If they hate America and the UK so much, why the hell don't they break off diplomatic and commercial ties and just enjoy the remaining parts of the world?
Fairy, using my quote about Americans being insular then mentioning nothing about it is an odd way of making your point. Americans are obsessed with what happens within their borders, not concerned with a world view as other countries are. It doesn't make them bad people, but there is a truth there. It's also a fact that George Bush has proudly identified himself as a war president. What are they in Iraq for? If it's to find WMD or round up terrorists, they're doing an awful job of it. No right minded people can be for terrorists. And no right minded people can be for a bogus war for bogus reasons.
Read his comments this morning on his views of how we are of the bad guys ( I should have have known we deserve to die) and wanted to ger a little understanding myself. I live in the USA by the way and despite what he says,...a climate of fear, which, sadly, the U.S.A. is already experiencing...is not true.
I think we all get fraustrated because we are afraid a little and do no understand the mentality of cold blooded killers any more than we do people who for example molest and kill children. We need concrete reasons. Accepting that people are just evil is hard.
want to see our politicians answer the question 'Why?' Why do people hate us this much? What can we do to change this? It's no use thinking we are dealing with a small bunch of maniacs, as seems to be the popular view, who need to be 'stamped out.'
I have a few tips that may help:
1. NEVER say anything that may be even remotly offensive to islam. Do not even show negative news on tv. They hate this. Check out Rushdie or the Dutch filmaker that was murdered.
2. Make music that is only pleasing to god
3. Teach Islam in the schools. If we are evil than we must try to be like them and show we are not.
4.Talking of how we are perceived of a s greedy, how much are you worth Brian? Or is that different?
5. Pay $500 for a barrel of oil. That is what Bin Laden said we should be doing. Sell it to the infidels but make them pay.
6. Take out all westerners from the middle east, no matter who they are or what they do. Laden has stated clearly that we do not belong there. We are the infidel.
7. Continue with humanitarian aid and increase it as much as we can afford. They may hate us but we have to show we are better and continue to send them money.
8. Remove troops from Bosnia. If the slaugher continues, well the terrorists can step in and help. Like they give a damm about their own people anyway.
9.Do NOT develop electric cars. If we do not need oil, these people have NOTHING, and that would be hatefull on our behalf right?
Look, I could go on and I respect Brians views, but it is a relativly small percentage of people who want to do us harm. Do you really want to change your way of live out of fear, and hope they leave you alone until the next time they want something.
While not perfect, do you really think the USA and England is evil? If so, how could you live there? Must be non-evil places you can be.
Lastly, knowing what Sadam was doing to his people (women and children) daily, do you not think it's evil to do nothing? "What a shame, we will do a concert and send money". But they still die. Singing kumbaya and hoping does not make dictators go away and does not relieve most of the worlds suffering. never has, probably never will.
Oh, finally a clear, proud answer to hypocrisy!!!!
I haven't read the replies to this thread yet. I just wanted to tell you how happy I am to finally see a polite but still strong statement against the hypocrits who I feel are taking over our Western world and are supporting the enemy rather than helping in the cause for peace.
We all agree we have many flaws...we all agree love and compassion are wonderful and necessary, but let's get real. Let's not mix up good from evil.
Brian proved to be just another face in the crowd of the billionaire celebrities who use beautiful, empty words to appear compassionate and generous. After all, their words mean little to nothing. They must not take decisions anyway. I'm not even sure people like Brian are in good faith. Of course he knows very well that if he was born in those societies he preaches understanding for, he would not even be allowed to express his opinion, let alone to sing about sex, parties, and lead the life he led.
I'm tired of this political correctness. I am the victim! And I'm tired. This attitude is just working against us.
Fairy
Certainly there is no one answer and I do feel anger that we are put in a position by a few people where we need to act to defend ourselves.
I agree with what you said about Brian and am glad he was able to express himself because I have been listening to him and loving his music for 25 years or so, and believe he is the worlds best rock guitarist. Sad though when, as you say, the victims are made out to be the bad guys and the murderers the victims. You can blame the govt. but half the people in this country voted the guy in, so perhaps only half the country is to blame. We went to war in the mid-90's to prevent genocide against Muslims in Europe. God knows how much money we send around the world to aid Muslims when they need it, and I agree with helping them and think the vast majority of Muslims appreciate this and do not agree with terorism. Brian made a comment about countries hating u. I do not believe this. Some people within a country and perhaps even the Govt. but not the entire nation. Perhaps I am wrong, I hope not.
I agree with what you said about Brian and am glad he was able to express himself because I have been listening to him and loving his music for 25 years or so, and believe he is the worlds best rock guitarist. Sad though when, as you say, the victims are made out to be the bad guys and the murderers the victims. You can blame the govt. but half the people in this country voted the guy in, so perhaps only half the country is to blame. We went to war in the mid-90's to prevent genocide against Muslims in Europe. God knows how much money we send around the world to aid Muslims when they need it, and I agree with helping them and think the vast majority of Muslims appreciate this and do not agree with terorism. Brian made a comment about countries hating u. I do not believe this. Some people within a country and perhaps even the Govt. but not the entire nation. Perhaps I am wrong, I hope not.
Sadam was by all accounts a bad guy but the Iraqi people were much safer under him than they are now. He ruled with an iron fist and the laws in that country were harsh but law abiding citizens were safe. That's not the case now.
I'm from a quote unquote red state, for those of you not from the USA that means mostly conservative, republican state. Hell I'm in Texas lol most people upnorth don't think it gets any redder here [not really true because in Dallas John Kerry received 70 percent of the vote if my memory is correct, it's pretty liberal for the most part]. Anyway my point, this war in iraq is a crock of shams when you think about it. Let's stay on one topic and seriously think about it in relation to the war on terror. Sadam was not a threat, he really had no motive to attack the USA, because he had enough sense to know he couldnt win and the USA would have tons of world support if he made a move like that. He wasn't a friend of Al-queda, he kept the different factions of islam in check as well. More importantly the people had power and water for the most part.
My major point is here, Al Queada were the major threat at the time the war was started by far. So why would you the 10's of billions of dollars away from destroying the real terrorists to create another problem. Cause now they only made Iraq a mecca for terrorism. I have a perfect analogy for it I'm gonna put in all caps, THAT'S LIKE HAVING A GUN SHOT WOUND IN YOUR RIGHT ARM BUT INSTEAD OF DRIVING TO THE HOSPITAL OR CALLING AN AMBULANCE YOU PUT A FRIGGIN' GUN TO YOUR LEFT ARM AND PULL THE TRIGGER. The money that went towards Iraq should've been IMO put towards recruiting and training special forces mostly to send them out all around the world to break up terror cells. Thta would've been a more effective war on terror and probably would've severely crippled all terrorism around the world. I'm talking about if all the billions put in Iraq were used for that purpose. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and terror but the Bush administration is trying to make it seem like that.
I'm from a quote unquote red state, for those of you not from the USA that means mostly conservative, republican state. Hell I'm in Texas lol most people upnorth don't think it gets any redder here [not really true because in Dallas John Kerry received 70 percent of the vote if my memory is correct, it's pretty liberal for the most part]. Anyway my point, this war in iraq is a crock of shams when you think about it. Let's stay on one topic and seriously think about it in relation to the war on terror. Sadam was not a threat, he really had no motive to attack the USA, because he had enough sense to know he couldnt win and the USA would have tons of world support if he made a move like that. He wasn't a friend of Al-queda, he kept the different factions of islam in check as well. More importantly the people had power and water for the most part.
My major point is here, Al Queada were the major threat at the time the war was started by far. So why would you the 10's of billions of dollars away from destroying the real terrorists to create another problem. Cause now they only made Iraq a mecca for terrorism. I have a perfect analogy for it I'm gonna put in all caps, THAT'S LIKE HAVING A GUN SHOT WOUND IN YOUR RIGHT ARM BUT INSTEAD OF DRIVING TO THE HOSPITAL OR CALLING AN AMBULANCE YOU PUT A FRIGGIN' GUN TO YOUR LEFT ARM AND PULL THE TRIGGER. The money that went towards Iraq should've been IMO put towards recruiting and training special forces mostly to send them out all around the world to break up terror cells. Thta would've been a more effective war on terror and probably would've severely crippled all terrorism around the world. I'm talking about if all the billions put in Iraq were used for that purpose. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and terror but the Bush administration is trying to make it seem like that.