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Mercury and Me Jim Hutton

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Indy 19

Hi Freddiedearie:

Hmm. I certainly don't want to do much more in this, uhh, "debate" than point out two things:

If you are using rhetorical questions to posit or insinuate X, and in effect challenging my posit.... you're debating me, even when you'rr trying to couch it as "just a question"

2) Freddie stayed married to Winnie and continued to wear Winnie's ring over a year after Jim and Freddie hooked up. (May 12, 1986)

-- I thought there was no "civil union/marriage" at the time, so what's with the "married to Winnie" bit?

Semantics. Call it committed relationship, marriage , civil union whatever. Gay men wore wedding bands on their RH ring finger to signal to others who were aware of gay signaling at the time.

5) Jim had to coax Freddie into wearing Jims ring.

Where's this "factoid" from? I admit I'm not up on the "Freddie's lovers" lore, so someone point me to it, please?

Jim's book. According to him, for about a year Freddie would take off Jim's ring in public even though he had openly wore WINNIE'S ring in public for abt 2 years.

....

--My takeaway from these posts though is that you seem to be way more inclined to like Winnie the abuser and hate Jim the caretaker.

What gives?

1) Thats an intellectually dishonest debate tactic and logical fallacy.

Rejecting facts or logic as "mere" opinion, preference, personal taste, or like: It is true that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But everyone is not entitled to their own facts or logic. Nor is anyone allowed to characterize a factual/logical argument as merely the opinion, preference, personal taste, or like of the opponent.

Facts are facts. 2 +2 = 4 is not my opinion. It is a fact.

Like it or not Freddie was still wearing Winnie Kirschberger's wedding ring through Mid-May 1986. A YEAR after Jim and Freddie first hooked up as an attempt to make Winnie jealous.

If your take away is that I support Winifred and Freddie's toxic relationship any more than I support Jim and Freddie's toxic "relationship", then you're not paying attention.

I'm way more inclined to point out facts, wherever the truth may lead. My wishing Freddie wasn't in that toxic relationship doesn't make it disappear.

For the record Jim was not Freddie's caretaker. Only Phoebe and Joe did. [I](And Jim admits to this in a 2006 interview with respected, award winning journalist from "The Times"-- Jim also admits to cheating on Freddie "a little" in that interview, FYI)[/I]


in In the last week of Freddies life Jim split his time sleeping at home,( he snored too much Freddie didn't like him in the room) or getting his rocks off at the Notting Hill BDSM as fetish private club called "The Gate Club". (No it was not a bar like Jim tried to pretend).
”I’m not afraid to speak out and say the things that I want to do, or do the things I want to do. So I think in the end being natural and being actually genuine is what wins.”
Invisible Woman" I think it's not the same ring, but let everyone see what thinks that see. Someone is wrong and someone is right. I certainly will not argue about it. Bye,bye. "

Doesn't matter anyway. Jim had to buy his own wedding ring because Freddie wasn't interested in doing so. Bye bye
”I’m not afraid to speak out and say the things that I want to do, or do the things I want to do. So I think in the end being natural and being actually genuine is what wins.”
So, umm, Freddiedearie, are you an insider or not?
Holligan-

"I know who you are on instagram. You have taken your precious time on earth and decided to make several accounts dedicated to hating Jim- a man Freddie loved. "

Really not interested in addressing your paranoia. Imdobt hate Jim, Im simply aware of many discrepancies in his book and have concluded Imwill only taken it with a grain of salt.

"This is some sort of mental illness and it isn't normal. You can ran all you want, but no one is going to change their mind. "

You're need to engage in adhominem only reveals you don't have he facts or logic to defend your POV.

"Jim wrote a book, and what he said was backed up by everyone that knew Freddie.

No it has NOT been backed up by everyone that knew Freddie



"You don't take your gardener to Japan. Why would he lie? Freddie had a series of boyfriends and Jim was the one he was with the longest. "

Yes Freddie did. Mary, Joe, Jim and Phoebe had primary jobs but they often switch off on menial tasks when needed.

"Mary worked for Freddie too. She also gave several paid interviews. "

1) Mary ran Freddie's multi-million dollar business. She ran Garden Lodge. She was in charge of Freddie's employees.

Sunday Magazine, May, 1985:

"Of coures my parents are in my will and so are my cats, but the vast bulk of it will go to Mary.

If I dropped down dead tomorrow, Mary's the one person I know who could cope with my vast wealth. She works in my organisation and looks after my money side and all my possessions.

She's in charge of the chauffeurs, maids, gardeners, accountants and lawyers. All I have to do is throw my carcass around on stage." Freddie is one of the world's richest rock stars but he never has a penny in his pocket and has no idea of how many millions he owns."

Because Mary handled it all for him.


2) You've never proven she paid for any interview. But, regardless, she never told the world LURID details like Jim did. It's not THAT Jim wrote the book, it's WHAT he put in the book, betraying Freddies privacy and wishes while Freddie's parents were still alive.

--When I brought this up with one of your Jim hating cohorts on instagram, she called me a "gutter whore" "

Whoever called you a "gutter whore" has nothing to do with me.

-So take your hate elsewhere. Freddie loved Jim. You are not a fan if you spend your time hating a man he trusted and loved.

Don't hate Jim. Just don't respect or believe him.

Freddie didn't even entrust Jim With his cremains. LOL!!!! He didn't even trust him with KNOWLEDGE of the location of his resting place!!!

You're not a true Freddie fan if you insist on over-romanticizing someone who lied about and betrayed Freddie so horribly.
”I’m not afraid to speak out and say the things that I want to do, or do the things I want to do. So I think in the end being natural and being actually genuine is what wins.”
Indy 19,

Point is you don't and can't know.


So umm. Indy 19,. Are you capable of defending your own ideas, assertions or POV without resorting to ad hominem , or engaging in the dishonest tactic of questioning my motives?: If my facts or logic are wrong, just point exactly what the error is. If you're even capable.

You obliquely pointing my supposed suspicious motives is basically admitting you've found no error; it’s just an attempt to *insinuate* an error by innuendo. Don’t say why I’m wrong; say where I’m wrong.

IF you're interested in honest discussion.
”I’m not afraid to speak out and say the things that I want to do, or do the things I want to do. So I think in the end being natural and being actually genuine is what wins.”
@ FreddieDearie

I know I said I would not discuss this any more, but I have to say this.
It's not true that Freddie didn't want to wear Jim's ring for a year since September 1986. See photos from the Ivor Novello awards 1987. See video interview with Montserrat and their performing Barcelona in Ku Club.
And these photos from Japan? I guess there are no rings on them?

You constantly repeat the same over and over and when someone asks you something, you answer only partially and repeat the same thing again. What you present as a fact is just your view about it.
You say "he was with Winnie". Yes, but when? I didn't ask you that. Answer to my question in whole if you want.

This is all from me in this topic. You will continue to put "facts". I don't mind.
A few questions. . .

What's so important about what jewellery Freddie wore
What's so important about who bought what and why
What is the need to attach a particular reason for him having a ring
Why are certain people acting like they know the definitive facts as though they were there.
Invisible woman: This dearie person is mentally ill. They constantly spread misinformation about Jim all over social media.

It's not normal and Freddie would certainly not like it.
Indy: FreddieDearie is NOT an insider. She's a paranoid, mentally ill Jim hater from instagram.

Mary was not in New York and Munich often. People on this forum WHO WERE ACTUALLY IN New York with Freddie said she wasn't. Stop making things up because you're so jealous of Jim.

Why the fuck would Freddie take his gardener to Japan? Why can't you accept they were lovers? Jealousy is not a good look on you, sweetie.
FreddieDearie cut and pasted that bit about HIV superinfection from wikipedia. In case anyone cares.

What it has to do with the subject at hand, I don’t know.

Vocal Harmony—Good questions. I would think that Freddie saying that he is very happy in his relationship and couldn’t ask for better means more than all this unverifiable stuff about rings.

And I promised myself I wouldn’t post in troll threads, but I have no self control.
I told you at the outset that I do not want to debate this with you. All I want to know is if you are an insider. If you're not, then you need to shut the fuck up because you have NO INSIDE KNOWLEDGE BUT YOU'RE PRETENDING YOU DO WHILE SLANDERING A MAN WHO LOVED FRED.

So either provide proof that you knew Freddie, or GTFO.

[QUOTE] [b]FreddieDearie wrote:[/b]

Indy 19,

Point is you don't and can't know.


So umm. Indy 19,. Are you capable of defending your own ideas, assertions or POV without resorting to ad hominem , or engaging in the dishonest tactic of questioning my motives?: If my facts or logic are wrong, just point exactly what the error is. If you're even capable.

You obliquely pointing my supposed suspicious motives is basically admitting you've found no error; it’s just an attempt to *insinuate* an error by innuendo. Don’t say why I’m wrong; say where I’m wrong.

IF you're interested in honest discussion.



[/QUOTE]
I am in agreement that Freddie would not have wanted Jim to write the things he did in Mercury and Me. I feel pretty sure Freddie would have felt it a betrayal - not that Jim wrote a book, but that he revealed such intimate details about Freddie. And I don't feel Freddie was the kind of person to take something he felt betrayed his trust with just an "oh well" attitude...

However, I can't understand why anyone would want to try to prove Jim was less important to Freddie. What Jim and Freddie meant to each other is something deeply personal and is something that we can never know and the only evidence to prove it is from Freddie and Jim and their friends and those who knew them - from them speaking what they felt and from people seeing how they were with each other.

Personally I HOPE Jim was the most important and satisfying love in Freddie's life ...I mean I don't know if more special is the right word. I hope everyone he loved in their time was special to him and he was special to them. But I hope Jim provided a new and deeper experience of love and contentment for Freddie than he had known before. I hope Freddie found peace in his relationship with Jim. And I hope he found happiness and that they both felt loved.

Of course Jim was not perfect, just as no-one is, Freddie included. I think the trouble with these kinds of discussions is people often feel some thing a person was or did was wrong - be it an action or a trait of their personality and eventually extrapolate that to the person being a bad person (it happens on the flip side with Mary too.) The truth is Jim could be a loving, caring partner who loved Freddie deeply (and my impression of him is he was maybe good for Freddie in a very different sense - in that he also took no nonsense from Freddie and was able to be truly oblivious to Freddie's stardom which I am sure is easier written than done!) AND he could do things that were wrong and had negative personality traits too.

In the end, we don't love people because they are perfect. I love Jim because I hope he provided a new and deep experience of love for Freddie. At the same time, I think some of the things he wrote in Mercury and Me he should not have myself (not only the intimate details he revealed, but I'm sure he was still grieving when he wrote the book and it may have helped to have waited for other reasons too.) I think it was wrong and a betrayal of Freddie's trust to write those things and I can't be convinced otherwise. And it is hard for me to reflect on the idea that Jim could love Freddie so, yet release a book including things he must have known Freddie would never want in the public eye? I just wonder what Jim was thinking? Did he think Freddie was dead so he wouldn't care? And I am under no illusion Freddie and Jim's relationship was absolute bliss. That's not realistic to envision. All that matters is that they loved each other and I can't imagine why anyone would want to reduce this?

I mean, had Freddie lived, would Jim have been *the one*? Who can say. In truth, maybe Freddie wouldn't have settled down with anyone at that point in time. But you can never know the full truth of what did happen, quite before wildly speculating on what might have been.
omg this thread has been madness.
Unless any of us actually knew Freddie or Jim we cannot begin to speculate in depth information about their relationship and not one of us can 100% say if what was in Jim's book is 100% accurate or not, however, seeing as it was Jim's story of HIS lie with Freddie I would tend to believe was what written.
I don't understand why some people have so much hate for Jim, it's scary. The poor guy has been dead since 2010 and isn't around to defend himself.
All i will say on the subject is that it is fairly clear to me that Jim was thought of fondly by the others guys in the band and by Freddie's friends. I just had to do a bit of digging to find this out plus Brian wrote some lovely words on his soap box page about Jim when Jim passed away. Brian also confirmed in a TV interview one week after Freddie's death that he had been in a loving and stable relationship as well as confirming that he had been cared for by three guys in garden lodge. At the time he said this information needs to get out there somehow but it wasn't his place.

Regarding Winnie, it is true that he flaunted Jim in front of Winnie in Munich to make Winnie jealous and clearly messed both men around for a while however seeing as Freddie couldn't speak German and Winnie couldn'y speak English it couldn't have been that deep . Peter Fresstone said basically he gave Freddie good sex although Freddie wasn't faithful to Winnie even before Jim came along. Freddie had a screwed up mentality that it was ok for him to mess around but not for his current lover of the time. It is also true that Freddie wore the ring that Winnie gave him well into the first part of 1986. By the magic tour you will notice that it is gone. Freddie seemed to have settled down with Jim by this point and they were both in a good place as confirmed by Terry Gittins ,Freddies driver and bodyguard. Terry confirmed that he felt they did love each other and the trip to Japan was their time together to do what they wanted. Freddie wrote a letter to the fan club after the holiday saying what a fab time he'd had .

I wouldn't even begin to speculate that Freddie knew he had HIV prior to 1987. I tend to go with the information provided by those who knew Freddie and that was he was diagnosed in 1987. The solo collection released came with information which also backs up 1987. There are more people who back up the diagnosis in 1987 then mary's specualtion . Also the band have never said Freddie had been diagnosed prior to 1987. Hindsight after an event is a wonderful thing . I have seen an interview where Roger says that he felt Freddie felt that he may not be well enough to tour again. I imagine this is because he had thoughts towards the end of 1986 that he could have HIV seeing as friends had died from it and were ill from it. Tony Bastin a former BF died in 1986 and that must have been a rude awaking. By this point in the 80's information was beginning to come through which i'm sure he would off been more than aware of.

The bottom line is that only Freddie really knew how he felt . The news report about him in 1986 said the test had come back negative , that's if he did have a test, we will never know unless his medical records become available. Tests were not reliable back around this time and lots of people didn't want to know as it was a death sentence. I'm guessing Freddie fitted into this catagory and didn't want to know.

Lets all stop the silliness and enjoy Freddie and queen for the fantastice people and Band they were/are.
I forgot to add then when Mercury & Me was released onto Kindle in 2013, Brian May promoted it on his soapbox webpage. That leaves me feeling he doesn't discredit the contents. It was also backed by Jacky Gunn of the Queen Fan Club
me again... i keep remembering things I forgot to say.

After being intrigued by Freddie Mercury it lead me to wanting to find out about him. I tend to stick with trusted sources and interviews by people who knew him. What I take from this information is that Freddie was a strong willed man. If Freddie didn't want to wear the ring that Jim gave to him for his 40th birthday, I don't think he would have. . I don't believe that any amount of so called bullying or persuasion would have got him to wear the ring if he didn't want to.

I also found this after digging around.

Lay and lesbian marriage

Instead of wearing wedding bands on the left hands, gay and lesbian couples often choose to wear rings on their right hands instead. Within the gay community, the right handed ring is an instantly recognizable marker of a monogamous relationship , and even marrige within the states that have legalized it.

Obviously Freddie wasn't monogamous whilst wearing Winnie's ring but it apears to all intents that he was when he wore Jims. Peter confirmed that he wore the ring almost all of the time and he was wearing it when he was cremated. As you said, Jim did also place a Teddy with him when he left the house.