Someone needs to get a life.
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[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]
I actually like it when GB talks in capitals, it reminds me of the T-Rex from qwantz.com. You know - the only funny webcomic.
Zeni...
Basically, this comes across as "You have etiquette I don't like, so respect my right to visit you and ignore it."
Isn't that like burping at the dinnertable and saying, "It may be socially unacceptable to you folks, but respect my right to do it anyways"?
****
NO. It's not like that.
Burping at the dinner table is rude and revolting, whereas this CAP LETTS thing is merely a style decision in the context of plain old everyday communication. If it physically repulsed people, caused them actual pain, put them off their food, upset them, or provoked any such reaction, then i would stop. i don't think the two things are comparable.
However, Bohardy has made some points which are extremely interesting and deserve proper thought.
I'm pondering them........
Basically, this comes across as "You have etiquette I don't like, so respect my right to visit you and ignore it."
Isn't that like burping at the dinnertable and saying, "It may be socially unacceptable to you folks, but respect my right to do it anyways"?
****
NO. It's not like that.
Burping at the dinner table is rude and revolting, whereas this CAP LETTS thing is merely a style decision in the context of plain old everyday communication. If it physically repulsed people, caused them actual pain, put them off their food, upset them, or provoked any such reaction, then i would stop. i don't think the two things are comparable.
However, Bohardy has made some points which are extremely interesting and deserve proper thought.
I'm pondering them........
Bohardy, I'm interested in what you said...
The trouble is that upper-case letters, when used for multiple continuous sentences and paragraphes, ARE harder to read.
GB: I presume you mean that if English is your first language... hence my Egyptian example. I never really thought about that before but I guess that's true, yes.
The absence of ascenders and descenders
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?
means your eyes and brain have to concentrate that little bit harder on differentiating the letters and words.
I'M INTRIGUED BY THIS. CAN YOU ELABORATE PLEASE.
I'm sure the extra width in the letters and words also means that our eyes can't focus on longer words and groups of words in one 'go', and therefore the reading speed is slowed down.
IS THIS PROVEN? I GUESS ALL THIS STUFF HAS BEEN RESEARCHED THOROUGHLY, YES? I FURTHER GUESS THAT IT MIGHT BE THE KIND OF THING THAT SOME STUDENTS MIGHT LEARN AS PART OF THEIR COURSE.
I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS STUFF; WHAT THE HUMAN EYE/BRAIN CAN READ MOST EASILY, AND WHY AND HOW, ETC.
BOHARDY, HAVE YOU STUDIED ALL THIS STUFF? IF SO, FOR WHAT END?
Roadsigns, corporate logos and newspaper headlines are all either single words or simple statements. It's an entirely different situation to writing long streams of text in capital letters.
GB: Not sure about the 'entirely' different bit. These signs 'could' be all small letters, but in large print. But they're not. Why don't they use small letters if human eyes deal with that form better, and more quickly, when speed-reading while driving is so crucial?
I understand why you use caps Greg, but please appreciate that they are harder to read.
GB: As I say, I'd like to know more about these things. I have my own views on what is enjoyable and what are the easiest forms to read, but perhaps I should re-think.
The trouble is that upper-case letters, when used for multiple continuous sentences and paragraphes, ARE harder to read.
GB: I presume you mean that if English is your first language... hence my Egyptian example. I never really thought about that before but I guess that's true, yes.
The absence of ascenders and descenders
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?
means your eyes and brain have to concentrate that little bit harder on differentiating the letters and words.
I'M INTRIGUED BY THIS. CAN YOU ELABORATE PLEASE.
I'm sure the extra width in the letters and words also means that our eyes can't focus on longer words and groups of words in one 'go', and therefore the reading speed is slowed down.
IS THIS PROVEN? I GUESS ALL THIS STUFF HAS BEEN RESEARCHED THOROUGHLY, YES? I FURTHER GUESS THAT IT MIGHT BE THE KIND OF THING THAT SOME STUDENTS MIGHT LEARN AS PART OF THEIR COURSE.
I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS STUFF; WHAT THE HUMAN EYE/BRAIN CAN READ MOST EASILY, AND WHY AND HOW, ETC.
BOHARDY, HAVE YOU STUDIED ALL THIS STUFF? IF SO, FOR WHAT END?
Roadsigns, corporate logos and newspaper headlines are all either single words or simple statements. It's an entirely different situation to writing long streams of text in capital letters.
GB: Not sure about the 'entirely' different bit. These signs 'could' be all small letters, but in large print. But they're not. Why don't they use small letters if human eyes deal with that form better, and more quickly, when speed-reading while driving is so crucial?
I understand why you use caps Greg, but please appreciate that they are harder to read.
GB: As I say, I'd like to know more about these things. I have my own views on what is enjoyable and what are the easiest forms to read, but perhaps I should re-think.
I'm no real expert in writing systems, although I did a degree Linguistics at Uni, so I should have an idea...
I suppose I'm talking more in layman's terms, and am espousing mainly my own views rather than the results of any scientific studies. But I have read somewhere (and it seems a fairly obvious point really) about ascenders and descenders (the bits of letters (or the letters themselves) that protrude either above or below a font's midline - j, p, g, h, q, f, b, d etc) facilitating quick word recognition.
In capitals, all letters are of the exact same height. Imagine that all the letters were completely fuzzy and indecipherable, and you'd just have a continuous bar or fuzzy ink. But in lower case, that continuous bar of fuzzy ink (or pixels...) would have some bits that stuck out below or above the bar, and you would start to recognise some familiar patterns. 'jelly' or 'belly' for example would be quite easy to pick out.
Am I making sense?
The thing about the extra width is purely my own idea. I don't think I've read that anywhere. But it makes logical sense to me. We don't actually read one word at a time normally, but are actually registering a few at a time as we progress through a sentence. To me it just makes sense that that's harder to do if the letters are that bit farther apart.
I've just found this on Wikipedia, which is incredibly relevant to your point about speed-reading when driving:
"Ascenders, together with descenders, increase the recognizability of words. For this reason, British highway road signs that must be read quickly no longer use all capital letters". This apparently comes from Sampson, Geoffrey. Writing Systems: A linguistic introduction, pp. 94–95. Stanford, California: Stanford University Press, 1985.
Yes, of course this stuff has been studied thoroughly, but I'm working more from intuition and hazy recollection than informed knowledge of relevant research.
And I think this whole thing is only relevant to people who use the Roman alphabet, rather than just people who have English as their first language.
I suppose the reason that your Egyptian friend insisted on the addresses being written in capitals (how was Egypt by the way? I had the time of my life there a few years back) is because upper-case letters are more familiar to people who don't use the Roman alphabet - the original Roman alphabet does not include the minuscule (a fancy word for lower-case, as opposed to majuscule) forms of letters, and beacuse they are simpler and less florid than lower case, making the letters easier still to recognise to somebody with a different alphabet.
I suppose I'm talking more in layman's terms, and am espousing mainly my own views rather than the results of any scientific studies. But I have read somewhere (and it seems a fairly obvious point really) about ascenders and descenders (the bits of letters (or the letters themselves) that protrude either above or below a font's midline - j, p, g, h, q, f, b, d etc) facilitating quick word recognition.
In capitals, all letters are of the exact same height. Imagine that all the letters were completely fuzzy and indecipherable, and you'd just have a continuous bar or fuzzy ink. But in lower case, that continuous bar of fuzzy ink (or pixels...) would have some bits that stuck out below or above the bar, and you would start to recognise some familiar patterns. 'jelly' or 'belly' for example would be quite easy to pick out.
Am I making sense?
The thing about the extra width is purely my own idea. I don't think I've read that anywhere. But it makes logical sense to me. We don't actually read one word at a time normally, but are actually registering a few at a time as we progress through a sentence. To me it just makes sense that that's harder to do if the letters are that bit farther apart.
I've just found this on Wikipedia, which is incredibly relevant to your point about speed-reading when driving:
"Ascenders, together with descenders, increase the recognizability of words. For this reason, British highway road signs that must be read quickly no longer use all capital letters". This apparently comes from Sampson, Geoffrey. Writing Systems: A linguistic introduction, pp. 94–95. Stanford, California: Stanford University Press, 1985.
Yes, of course this stuff has been studied thoroughly, but I'm working more from intuition and hazy recollection than informed knowledge of relevant research.
And I think this whole thing is only relevant to people who use the Roman alphabet, rather than just people who have English as their first language.
I suppose the reason that your Egyptian friend insisted on the addresses being written in capitals (how was Egypt by the way? I had the time of my life there a few years back) is because upper-case letters are more familiar to people who don't use the Roman alphabet - the original Roman alphabet does not include the minuscule (a fancy word for lower-case, as opposed to majuscule) forms of letters, and beacuse they are simpler and less florid than lower case, making the letters easier still to recognise to somebody with a different alphabet.
Excellent stuff Bohardy. That is all fascinating to me. I'm going to look into this further.
Thanks.
Thanks.
No probs. This has piqued my interest in this kind of thing again too.
I think I am more interested in the Dinosaur Comics. Ha. The Utahraptor with his mouth open really wide looks just like my cat. Very cute with his leg up in the air - and those little arms.
I have a couple of things to say about Greg's HUGE initial post. I think capitals ARE easier to read. Maybe that is just my brain. Also, I like how Greg goes into MASSIVE detail. It gets funnier with each line.
As for the burping, well, it just depends on who you are having over for dinner I think.
Edit: Or is that whom? Let me just clarify that I am not used to being around burping people, really, at least not since I was a child and my younger brothers were entertaining us in their special way at the dinner table, but I just think that not all burps would cause the same reaction. Would they? And besides, I think it is only polite to NOT correct a person, when they are a guest and it is in regards to something minor (or even possibly cute or silly), such as using capital letters.
I have a couple of things to say about Greg's HUGE initial post. I think capitals ARE easier to read. Maybe that is just my brain. Also, I like how Greg goes into MASSIVE detail. It gets funnier with each line.
As for the burping, well, it just depends on who you are having over for dinner I think.
Edit: Or is that whom? Let me just clarify that I am not used to being around burping people, really, at least not since I was a child and my younger brothers were entertaining us in their special way at the dinner table, but I just think that not all burps would cause the same reaction. Would they? And besides, I think it is only polite to NOT correct a person, when they are a guest and it is in regards to something minor (or even possibly cute or silly), such as using capital letters.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Queen Archivist wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Burping at the dinner table is rude and revolting,
[/QUOTE]
This is merely how you have chosen to perceive it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burping#Social_context_and_etiquette
As that link shows, in some places burping is welcome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocentrism
A bit over the top, but I think it gets to my point. Etiquette is defined by those within the culture, not outsiders. Same idea applies to internet etiquette, or that catchy term "netiquette."
Burping at the dinner table is rude and revolting,
[/QUOTE]
This is merely how you have chosen to perceive it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burping#Social_context_and_etiquette
As that link shows, in some places burping is welcome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocentrism
A bit over the top, but I think it gets to my point. Etiquette is defined by those within the culture, not outsiders. Same idea applies to internet etiquette, or that catchy term "netiquette."
Yes Zeni, a point well made.
Good one!
Good one!
Both Zeni and Bohardy raised valid arguments, which I might've made myself... if I had the time and the patience to do the research :D
I'l give you another example, Greg. On his website, Brian May always responds in bold. Why? Precisely because he (or rather JenX - the site's webmistress) wants to differentiate Brian's writing from the general content of the site. He might have chosen to type his responses in italics or underlined, or even in a distinctive colour. But can you imagine if his responses were all in uppercase?
Every culture and/or sub-culture has its own peculiar norms of behaviour. The Internet is a sub-culture in itself. There's the shorthand, also known as "txt spk". And then there are the little niceties. When I'm chatting on IRC, ICQ or another instant messaging service I don't bother with capital letters in the beginning of the sentence, or with full stops at the end. Because it's chat and it's a whole lot more relaxed. But typing in caps is reserved only for cases when I'm really upset or even angry about something and I want the person on the other end of the line to know that I'm angry. It's part of the so-called netiquette. If we were talking on the phone I would simply have to raise my voice. But online we don't have that luxury and that's why it's generally accepted that uppercase means that one is shouting.
Another example. Picking your ear is something ordinary isn't it? But to a deaf man, using sign language that would be a grave insult. It would mean that you are mentioning the man's mother in a very unpolite manner to say the least.
So, again. If one wants to become a part of a specific sub-culture, then one must abide by the etiquette of that sub-culture.
And I'll make the point about using the quote BB Code. Just copy the text that you want to quote and then paste it between these two markers:
[ QUOTE ] [ / QUOTE ]
Like this:
[QUOTE]Vlad, you can train your eyes NOT to be affeted by capital letters, just as you train your ears, if you wish to, NOT to be hurt by bad words, foul language, Cliff Richard songs, etc.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I suppose I could. But most of us Internet users have grown accustomed to reading in sentence case. And yes, it is a psychological reaction when I consider uppercase to be shouting, but in real life I have a psychological reaction to sarcasm. I dislike it with a passion.
[QUOTE]I personally am hurt by the crap that people talk, MUCH MORE than by the appearance of writing on a page, and its form. People who say "proply" and "probly" and "pacificly" and "fing" and "fink" and "summink" and "nuffin" and "feef" when what they really mean is..."properly" and "probably" and "specifically" and "thing" and "think" and "something" and "nothing" and "thief" That kind of thing GENUINELY hurts me and pains my ears and brain. I hate it.[/QUOTE]
I agree about that. Many people on QOL have complimented me on my command of the English Language. And that makes me very proud - to receive such a compliment from native speakers, considering that I am not a native speaker. Even so, it's just as frustrating to me to read poor spelling (for example "their" instead of "there") as it is to you. It's even more frustrating to read spelling errors in my native language, but that's a whole different story altogether.
Best regards,
Vlad
I'l give you another example, Greg. On his website, Brian May always responds in bold. Why? Precisely because he (or rather JenX - the site's webmistress) wants to differentiate Brian's writing from the general content of the site. He might have chosen to type his responses in italics or underlined, or even in a distinctive colour. But can you imagine if his responses were all in uppercase?
Every culture and/or sub-culture has its own peculiar norms of behaviour. The Internet is a sub-culture in itself. There's the shorthand, also known as "txt spk". And then there are the little niceties. When I'm chatting on IRC, ICQ or another instant messaging service I don't bother with capital letters in the beginning of the sentence, or with full stops at the end. Because it's chat and it's a whole lot more relaxed. But typing in caps is reserved only for cases when I'm really upset or even angry about something and I want the person on the other end of the line to know that I'm angry. It's part of the so-called netiquette. If we were talking on the phone I would simply have to raise my voice. But online we don't have that luxury and that's why it's generally accepted that uppercase means that one is shouting.
Another example. Picking your ear is something ordinary isn't it? But to a deaf man, using sign language that would be a grave insult. It would mean that you are mentioning the man's mother in a very unpolite manner to say the least.
So, again. If one wants to become a part of a specific sub-culture, then one must abide by the etiquette of that sub-culture.
And I'll make the point about using the quote BB Code. Just copy the text that you want to quote and then paste it between these two markers:
[ QUOTE ] [ / QUOTE ]
Like this:
[QUOTE]Vlad, you can train your eyes NOT to be affeted by capital letters, just as you train your ears, if you wish to, NOT to be hurt by bad words, foul language, Cliff Richard songs, etc.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I suppose I could. But most of us Internet users have grown accustomed to reading in sentence case. And yes, it is a psychological reaction when I consider uppercase to be shouting, but in real life I have a psychological reaction to sarcasm. I dislike it with a passion.
[QUOTE]I personally am hurt by the crap that people talk, MUCH MORE than by the appearance of writing on a page, and its form. People who say "proply" and "probly" and "pacificly" and "fing" and "fink" and "summink" and "nuffin" and "feef" when what they really mean is..."properly" and "probably" and "specifically" and "thing" and "think" and "something" and "nothing" and "thief" That kind of thing GENUINELY hurts me and pains my ears and brain. I hate it.[/QUOTE]
I agree about that. Many people on QOL have complimented me on my command of the English Language. And that makes me very proud - to receive such a compliment from native speakers, considering that I am not a native speaker. Even so, it's just as frustrating to me to read poor spelling (for example "their" instead of "there") as it is to you. It's even more frustrating to read spelling errors in my native language, but that's a whole different story altogether.
Best regards,
Vlad
Heh, what are the haps, my friend?
More on the subject:
[QUOTE]Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae.[/QUOTE]
Food for thought.
Vlad
[QUOTE]Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae.[/QUOTE]
Food for thought.
Vlad
I was gonna make that very same point Vlad, but I couldn't see how it comfortably fitted in with my position, so I avoided it...