My point was more that there was no fair trial whereas the death penalty issue is another topic.
It's true what you say about the Vatican but if history disqualifies them to speak out against human rights violations, not many of us could. For example my own country was ruled by the worst killers only 62 years ago and was responsible for the death of 20 million people. Still, I think I have the right to speak out against injustice and inhumanity. Human Rights and their violation are much more an issue in schools in my country than in neighbour countries who do not have such a history. However, the fact that the Vatican spoke out against the illegal occupation of the Iraq and spoke out against the inhumane punishment was helpful for the human rights supporters although it did not stop the occupation or the unfair trial.
As to the question if it is not more humane to kill a convicted murderer instead of jailiing him for life time - the death penalty is not a matter of practicality, it's a matter of justice. Societies who have the death penalty are often religious states (all Islamistic countries have it) or dictatorships (China, North Korea etc). In most democraties the state simply does not have the right to take the life of a citizen, no matter what. If life is not protected under all circumstances there will be abuse of that right.
As to the legality of the death penalty in the USA, I think it's quite controversial. Some Supreme Court rulings at least abolished the killing of minors and mentally disabled as unconstitutional and currently lethal injectionw were outruled in California as unconstitutional because they violate the 8th amendmend (unusual and cruel punsihment)
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[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Good general replies, Barb. Although I wouldn't use the Vatican condeming the death of Saddam as a selling point against the death penalty....after all, we are talking about an institution which, until a couple of hundred years ago, sanctioned, ordered and glorified the killing of "others". Hypocrisy in the extreme if ever there was one. [/QUOTE]
I think certain things are better left on the past.
Imagine if black people and indians decided to uprise to make white people pay for all the crimes commited against them during the 1800s?
I think certain things are better left on the past.
Imagine if black people and indians decided to uprise to make white people pay for all the crimes commited against them during the 1800s?
I just saw the actual video with the complete footage of Saddam Hussein's execution.
I was expecting Ashton Kutcher to come out at any moment and say:
- YO, SADDAM YOU JUST GOT PUNK'D!!
Looks like that didn't happen.
I was expecting Ashton Kutcher to come out at any moment and say:
- YO, SADDAM YOU JUST GOT PUNK'D!!
Looks like that didn't happen.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Good general replies, Barb. Although I wouldn't use the Vatican condeming the death of Saddam as a selling point against the death penalty....after all, we are talking about an institution which, until a couple of hundred years ago, sanctioned, ordered and glorified the killing of "others". Hypocrisy in the extreme if ever there was one. [/QUOTE]
I think certain things are better left on the past.
Imagine if black people and indians decided to uprise to make white people pay for all the crimes commited against them during the 1800s?[/QUOTE]
I wholeheartedly agree with this, but it's amazing how many people do not grasp the simple concept that the past is the past. It is especially annoying when anyone who might be associated with the event in question is dead.
"Catholics are hypocrites because of the Crusades,"
"Americans are hypocrites because of the deal with the Native Americans/slavery/etc.,"
and the list goes on and on. Idiots.
On a side note, it seems my previous post has yet to be responded to...
I think certain things are better left on the past.
Imagine if black people and indians decided to uprise to make white people pay for all the crimes commited against them during the 1800s?[/QUOTE]
I wholeheartedly agree with this, but it's amazing how many people do not grasp the simple concept that the past is the past. It is especially annoying when anyone who might be associated with the event in question is dead.
"Catholics are hypocrites because of the Crusades,"
"Americans are hypocrites because of the deal with the Native Americans/slavery/etc.,"
and the list goes on and on. Idiots.
On a side note, it seems my previous post has yet to be responded to...
First of all, I agree that the past is the past. But it does need to be remembered. Yes, people need to speak out against crimes against humanity, but most of us are guilty by association, so everyone is a hypocrite in the strict sense of the word. However, what needs to be remembered (and guarded against) is that fact that there are certain frames of mind and certain institutions that may not always be bad in and of themselves, but are more prone to having their message hijacked and used for ill purposes. Religion, like it or not, is one of those areas. Nationalism is another. Anything that breeds or commands this type of blind loyalty and obidience is always in danger of bringing these types of crimes back into the world; these are the things (religion and nationalism in my example) that need to be watched carefully, and if neccessary knocked down off of their high horses, because more damage might ensue. So I don't neccessarily think Catholics are hypocrites because of the Crusades, and I don't neccessarily think that the US is hypocritical because of slavery/westward expansion; bottom line we are all hypocrites anyway. But I think that someone needs to remember that these institutions are capable of these kinds of atrocities, and needs to sound the alarm if signs point to a return to that direction.
Even though Yamaha won't respond to this thread again, no prob on the dig :-). What I sugguested may have been cruel, but at least it keeps others alive, which was my overall point. His death leads to more deaths, my way would have reduced the innocents lost to violence because of his martyrs death. Even one innocent life saved is well worth the price.
Even though Yamaha won't respond to this thread again, no prob on the dig :-). What I sugguested may have been cruel, but at least it keeps others alive, which was my overall point. His death leads to more deaths, my way would have reduced the innocents lost to violence because of his martyrs death. Even one innocent life saved is well worth the price.
As long as there's an apology taking responsibilities for the mistakes made, I think it's definitely a must to just move on.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME]As long as there's an apology taking responsibilities for the mistakes made, I think it's definitely a must to just move on.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that people always ask the wrong people to apologize. Nobody under the age of 60 should apologize or attempt to reconcile anything due to the Holocaust. Nobody under the age of 142 should apologize or pay reparations for slavery. Nobody under the age of 200 should apologize for driving out the Indians. Nobody under the age of 700 years old should apologize for the Crusades. Despite all these things...people still seem to think an apology is due.
And then you have people apologizing for George W. Bush when the only people who should apologize are A) George W. Bush, and B) anyone who voted for him.
The problem is that people always ask the wrong people to apologize. Nobody under the age of 60 should apologize or attempt to reconcile anything due to the Holocaust. Nobody under the age of 142 should apologize or pay reparations for slavery. Nobody under the age of 200 should apologize for driving out the Indians. Nobody under the age of 700 years old should apologize for the Crusades. Despite all these things...people still seem to think an apology is due.
And then you have people apologizing for George W. Bush when the only people who should apologize are A) George W. Bush, and B) anyone who voted for him.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
The problem is that people always ask the wrong people to apologize. Nobody under the age of 60 should apologize or attempt to reconcile anything due to the Holocaust. Nobody under the age of 142 should apologize or pay reparations for slavery. Nobody under the age of 200 should apologize for driving out the Indians. Nobody under the age of 700 years old should apologize for the Crusades. Despite all these things...people still seem to think an apology is due.
And then you have people apologizing for George W. Bush when the only people who should apologize are A) George W. Bush, and B) anyone who voted for him.[/QUOTE]
You - Americans - always forget about that (what you just wrote) then it comes to discussion about USSR and communism... I personally responce on QZ for Stalin, Lenin, Marx, Afghanistan, Chechnya, political immigrants, Chernobyl...
The problem is that people always ask the wrong people to apologize. Nobody under the age of 60 should apologize or attempt to reconcile anything due to the Holocaust. Nobody under the age of 142 should apologize or pay reparations for slavery. Nobody under the age of 200 should apologize for driving out the Indians. Nobody under the age of 700 years old should apologize for the Crusades. Despite all these things...people still seem to think an apology is due.
And then you have people apologizing for George W. Bush when the only people who should apologize are A) George W. Bush, and B) anyone who voted for him.[/QUOTE]
You - Americans - always forget about that (what you just wrote) then it comes to discussion about USSR and communism... I personally responce on QZ for Stalin, Lenin, Marx, Afghanistan, Chechnya, political immigrants, Chernobyl...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Death_Penalty_World_Map.png
This map shows it all. Blue = civilized, red = 100 years behind. Somehow the US government is no better than al those countries they are trying to "save".
This map shows it all. Blue = civilized, red = 100 years behind. Somehow the US government is no better than al those countries they are trying to "save".
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]willem-jan wrote: [/QUOTENAME]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Death_Penalty_World_Map.png
This map shows it all. Blue = civilized, red = 100 years behind. Somehow the US government is no better than al those countries they are trying to "save". [/QUOTE]
Right on the money.
This map shows it all. Blue = civilized, red = 100 years behind. Somehow the US government is no better than al those countries they are trying to "save". [/QUOTE]
Right on the money.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=660066>Maverick<h6>4711 wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Serry Vietinhoff wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME].DeaconJohn. wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Apparently there is a full video of the execution on the internet now, due to the wonders of camera phones.[/QUOTE]
...And with sound...[/QUOTE]
I clicked on what was suposed to be a video of his last minutes... it's crap. Nothing interesting. :P[/QUOTE]
On the TV they showed part of it. They showed people making fun of Saddam when he already had the string around his neck, but then they cut it.
Yesterday I got the full video, though. You're right, not very interesting... But still, you can see his dead face.
...And with sound...[/QUOTE]
I clicked on what was suposed to be a video of his last minutes... it's crap. Nothing interesting. :P[/QUOTE]
On the TV they showed part of it. They showed people making fun of Saddam when he already had the string around his neck, but then they cut it.
Yesterday I got the full video, though. You're right, not very interesting... But still, you can see his dead face.
You are a very sick and deranged person, you know?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]willem-jan wrote: [/QUOTENAME]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Death_Penalty_World_Map.png
This map shows it all. Blue = civilized, red = 100 years behind. Somehow the US government is no better than al those countries they are trying to "save". [/QUOTE]
Just to point out (a comparitively small point) - not all states in the USA have the death penalty.
This map shows it all. Blue = civilized, red = 100 years behind. Somehow the US government is no better than al those countries they are trying to "save". [/QUOTE]
Just to point out (a comparitively small point) - not all states in the USA have the death penalty.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]willem-jan wrote: [/QUOTENAME]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Death_Penalty_World_Map.png
This map shows it all. Blue = civilized, red = 100 years behind. Somehow the US government is no better than al those countries they are trying to "save". [/QUOTE]
Just to point out (a comparitively small point) - not all states in the USA have the death penalty.
[/QUOTE]
This map lists per country, not per province. The federal government and a majority of states have the death penalty. Plenty of reason to list it.
This map shows it all. Blue = civilized, red = 100 years behind. Somehow the US government is no better than al those countries they are trying to "save". [/QUOTE]
Just to point out (a comparitively small point) - not all states in the USA have the death penalty.
[/QUOTE]
This map lists per country, not per province. The federal government and a majority of states have the death penalty. Plenty of reason to list it.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color = "crimson"> ThomasQuinn wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
This map lists per country, not per province. The federal government and a majority of states have the death penalty. Plenty of reason to list it.[/QUOTE]
Correct, however, I felt the need to point out that not all the states have the death penalty.
This map lists per country, not per province. The federal government and a majority of states have the death penalty. Plenty of reason to list it.[/QUOTE]
Correct, however, I felt the need to point out that not all the states have the death penalty.