[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color = "crimson"> ThomasQuinn wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Goebbels made a practical way to use such a theory, i.e. propaganda, which is what Bush now uses too (in fact, the pro-Bush tv-station FOX exclusively relies on Goebbels' theories on presenting 'news' for maximum propaganda-value).[/QUOTE]
As bad as Fox News is how much do you really think that it influences people in the United States? It barely gets viewing figures of more than 3 million people for any one show. This in a country of over 300 million people.
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[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]PieterMC wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color = "crimson"> ThomasQuinn wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Goebbels made a practical way to use such a theory, i.e. propaganda, which is what Bush now uses too (in fact, the pro-Bush tv-station FOX exclusively relies on Goebbels' theories on presenting 'news' for maximum propaganda-value).[/QUOTE]
As bad as Fox News is how much do you really think that it influences people in the United States? It barely gets viewing figures of more than 3 million people for any one show. This in a country of over 300 million people.[/QUOTE]
I'm just naming an example of extra-governmental use of such propaganda.
Goebbels made a practical way to use such a theory, i.e. propaganda, which is what Bush now uses too (in fact, the pro-Bush tv-station FOX exclusively relies on Goebbels' theories on presenting 'news' for maximum propaganda-value).[/QUOTE]
As bad as Fox News is how much do you really think that it influences people in the United States? It barely gets viewing figures of more than 3 million people for any one show. This in a country of over 300 million people.[/QUOTE]
I'm just naming an example of extra-governmental use of such propaganda.
We live in a shit world. We always have. It's not getting better or worse. Just live your life and one day you'll die and be free from it. The end.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]We live in a shit world. We always have. It's not getting better or worse. Just live your life and one day you'll die and be free from it. The end.[/QUOTE]
Amen.
Amen.
The Russians didn't turn the tide of World War II, neither did the Americans, the British or anyone else by themselves. It was a joint effort.
How would the Russians have faired in the early stages of the conflict without the convoys of materials, aircraft and armaments sent to them from the UK and USA?
How about the information the Allies were able to intercept thanks to the Polish Army passing on a working Enigma machine to the British in 1939.
How about the number of Axis troops that were kept away from the front lines thanks to the work of Resistance fighters in all occupied territories.
How about the Norwegians stopping the manufacture and shipment of heavy water at Telemark, preventing the Nazi's aim of building atomic weapons.
How about Hitler deciding to attack the Soviet Union at exactly the wrong time or the Germany Army failing to deploy it's Panzer Regiments in time during the Normandy landings, thus allowing a 2nd front to open.
There are so many contributing factors that helped defeat the Axis powers that to say 'We killed xx% of the enemy' is immaterial. For instance, if the Norwegians hadn't succeeded at Telemark and Hitler got his hands on atomic weapons, the Soviets could have killed 90% of the Axis forces and the Allies would have still been screwed.
At the end of the day, anyone who stood against the Nazi regime, whether it be the massed military forces of the Allies, small bands of resistance fighters or German nationals hiding Allied escaped prisoners or Jews, they should all stand proud and say 'I did my part'.
How would the Russians have faired in the early stages of the conflict without the convoys of materials, aircraft and armaments sent to them from the UK and USA?
How about the information the Allies were able to intercept thanks to the Polish Army passing on a working Enigma machine to the British in 1939.
How about the number of Axis troops that were kept away from the front lines thanks to the work of Resistance fighters in all occupied territories.
How about the Norwegians stopping the manufacture and shipment of heavy water at Telemark, preventing the Nazi's aim of building atomic weapons.
How about Hitler deciding to attack the Soviet Union at exactly the wrong time or the Germany Army failing to deploy it's Panzer Regiments in time during the Normandy landings, thus allowing a 2nd front to open.
There are so many contributing factors that helped defeat the Axis powers that to say 'We killed xx% of the enemy' is immaterial. For instance, if the Norwegians hadn't succeeded at Telemark and Hitler got his hands on atomic weapons, the Soviets could have killed 90% of the Axis forces and the Allies would have still been screwed.
At the end of the day, anyone who stood against the Nazi regime, whether it be the massed military forces of the Allies, small bands of resistance fighters or German nationals hiding Allied escaped prisoners or Jews, they should all stand proud and say 'I did my part'.
"The whole weight of the war is on the shoulders of the Russian soldiers!"
- Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, 1944
- Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, 1944
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Serry Vietinhoff wrote: [/QUOTENAME]"The whole weight of the war is on the shoulders of the Russian soldiers!"
- Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, 1944[/QUOTE]
The russians took a lot of shit...Stalingrad anybody? I'm not siding with anybody here...it's just Stalingrad was one fucked up battle. Check it out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad
Everybody did their part in the war...let's just leave it at that. I have to say, this is one of the greatest threads ever...thanks ThomasQuinn!!! No matter how different our opinions may be, I do respect you.
- Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, 1944[/QUOTE]
The russians took a lot of shit...Stalingrad anybody? I'm not siding with anybody here...it's just Stalingrad was one fucked up battle. Check it out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad
Everybody did their part in the war...let's just leave it at that. I have to say, this is one of the greatest threads ever...thanks ThomasQuinn!!! No matter how different our opinions may be, I do respect you.
To have an idea of how shitty war is...
My grandad (having been a navigator in a Liberator, or a Lancaster, or something) didn't want to eat brains because apparently, he saw too many of them in the war.
Shit, eh? I really don't see the point of armed conflict. World leaders ought to settle their differences through karaoke or something.
My grandad (having been a navigator in a Liberator, or a Lancaster, or something) didn't want to eat brains because apparently, he saw too many of them in the war.
Shit, eh? I really don't see the point of armed conflict. World leaders ought to settle their differences through karaoke or something.
'To have the United States at our side was, to me, the greatest joy. Now at this very moment I knew the United States was in the war, up to the neck and in to the death. So we had won afterall!..Hitler's fate was sealed. Mussolini's fate was sealed. As for the Japanese, they would be ground to powder.'
- Winston Churchill, December 1941
- Winston Churchill, December 1941
"December 1941" << that explains a lot.
And with all my respect, Bob, but comparing 20 millions of lives of our soldiers with "stopping the manufacture and shipment of heavy water at Telemark" is a little bit... err.. is there word tactlessness in English? And I'm not saying what was more (or less) important for victory, maybe it was stopping the manufacture, and all the Russians would like to change our bloody victories (i.e. lives of members of our families) in Stalingrad, Kursk, Moscow on possibility to stop shipment of heavy water and then 50 years later discuss about what was more important... And we would never care too much about lines like "The USA bailed everyone out of WWII" then...
And with all my respect, Bob, but comparing 20 millions of lives of our soldiers with "stopping the manufacture and shipment of heavy water at Telemark" is a little bit... err.. is there word tactlessness in English? And I'm not saying what was more (or less) important for victory, maybe it was stopping the manufacture, and all the Russians would like to change our bloody victories (i.e. lives of members of our families) in Stalingrad, Kursk, Moscow on possibility to stop shipment of heavy water and then 50 years later discuss about what was more important... And we would never care too much about lines like "The USA bailed everyone out of WWII" then...
OK...now the thread has apparantly degenerated into "Who did more to win the war"...and to what point and purpose? That's half of what America finds herself in trouble with, this Holier than Thou and I Saved Your Ass so Kiss Mine attitude. Why in the world would anybody want to copy that? Besides, we can't know what would have happend had the US or Russia not gotten involved, anymore than we could know what happen had the south won the civil war...it's merely a game of speculation. Fun to do, but pointless in a way.
The war is over...the allies won....everyone who had a part in it should be proud. Period.
The war is over...the allies won....everyone who had a part in it should be proud. Period.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]OK...now the thread has apparantly degenerated into "Who did more to win the war"... [/QUOTE]
Nope. It's all about "The USA bailed everyone out of WWII". Not about who did more.
Nope. It's all about "The USA bailed everyone out of WWII". Not about who did more.
I see that....and I think that most people here agree that the perception that the US population (and most politicians) have that the world owes us for bailing everyone out in WWII is a flawed one because Russia did contribute a lot to the cause. But as was pointed out before, so did the Brits, resistance fighters in the occupied countries, Hitler's screw ups, etc.
We've got the point...it's a flawed attitude because it's wrong. No point in beating a dead horse.
We've got the point...it's a flawed attitude because it's wrong. No point in beating a dead horse.