I agree with Hitman to some extent, but not completely.
Some people in this board only see things with a single perspective. John Paul II did more good than bad things through out his life. Many people just ignore the fact that during WWII he saved many Jewish in Poland from Nazi persecution, and as a Pope he embraced other faiths and gathered with leaders from different religions to find a common ground to build peace. Not to mention that he apologized from all the crimes committed by the Catholic Church through out the past centuries.
Now when it comes to the issues of child molestation in which the Vatican has either turned a blind eye, or sent accused priests to a different diocese, I have to say that it's absolutely morally wrong to hide the dirt for the sake of protecting a reputation.
The position of the Church on AIDS in Africa and Pre-marital sex where they claim that contraceptives don't work is just bollocks. However, even more retarded is to see people making a big deal about it and blaming the Church for AIDS and teen pregnancies. Regardless of their position, the Catholic Church can't stop people from using condoms, so QUIT WHINING!
Another old-fashioned issue is the fact that the Catholic Church prohibits women from being ordained. Which is nothing but a sexist and unfair rule.
There's plenty of extremists who believe that the Catholic Church should be destroyed, but it does indeed need to be reformed.
Thread
Posts in chronological order
I'm glad that Hitman responded.
And you are right, to a certain extent. As a graduate student of European history from the Middle Ages to the Enlightenment, and currently researching a major paper on the subject of religion and reason and the concept of truth, I have to say that I am not anti-church. (When you talk of Church at the time frame I study, it is the Roman Catholic version, unless you specifically state Greek Orthodox). They have done many wonderful things, and have served as a unifying factor in people's lives when everything was going to hell around them. They've also been directly or indirectly responsible for some of the most beautiful architecture, art and music ever produced by humans. John Paul II in particular did many wonderful things during his pontificate, many of which Jingles mentioned.
But where I think you may be getting confused, Hitman, is that most of us here (at least the more intelligent ones) are not dissing Jesus or his message or things like that. Most of us have heard sermons or Masses or read the Bible and understand his ideas. What we are talking about is the Dogma of the Catholic Church...that is where we have problems. Jesus never proclaimed that we should establish Saints and worship them almost as much as him...that was something that Catholic Church started (for many reasons I won't bother to get into here, except to say it was probably done to make the conversion from polytheism to Catholicism more palatable). They claimed the right to be the sole interpretor of scripture, and created the dogma to back that up, and future dogma that was based on this right. That's fine, but even the most ardent Catholics admit that you can't live into today's life using the morals that were applicable during the time of Jesus. Otherwise we'd be selling our daughters into slavery, and killing all non-Catholics. Morals have progressed since then, and the Church has not progressed with them.
Granted The Church recognizes the need to reform itself on a couple of occasions, but they are only forced to do it when the people drag them, kicking and screaming the whole way, into it. The major abuses within the Catholic Church (which had always been present) weren't addressed until after Martin Luther broke off and created Protestant religion; the Church only addressed the issues that caused the separation when it seemed woefully obvious that they weren't winning back the people who had left. It gives the distinct impression of "Oh, alright. We'll fix things now, since you are making us."
We are at another point where the Catholic Church needs to seriously think about reform. For one, people aren't superstitious and uneducated anymore (at least not the majority like it was in the Middle Ages) and sainthood means nothing anymore, besides smacking of possible idolatry. Their stance on priestly marriage should be evaluated, since Jesus never said that priests should be that way, and the scripture even says that if you can't be celibate, then marriage is a good option. Their stance on women in positions of authority is horridly sexist and flies in the face of the fact that women are just as capable as men of doing things, not to mention it ignores the fact that for centuries it was the woman's job to see her children educated in the ideals of religion within the Catholic Church. Their stance on birth control has done nothing but helped to spread AIDS and create huge families which cannot feed themselves. Their stance on gay rights is completely forgetting the whole "Judge not, lest ye be judged" and "He who is without sin cast the first stone" thing. Pedophile priests are running rampant, and they have done NOTHING to fix that. It is time for reform of the Church and it's dogma. That is what we are arguing.
Do you have a response?
And you are right, to a certain extent. As a graduate student of European history from the Middle Ages to the Enlightenment, and currently researching a major paper on the subject of religion and reason and the concept of truth, I have to say that I am not anti-church. (When you talk of Church at the time frame I study, it is the Roman Catholic version, unless you specifically state Greek Orthodox). They have done many wonderful things, and have served as a unifying factor in people's lives when everything was going to hell around them. They've also been directly or indirectly responsible for some of the most beautiful architecture, art and music ever produced by humans. John Paul II in particular did many wonderful things during his pontificate, many of which Jingles mentioned.
But where I think you may be getting confused, Hitman, is that most of us here (at least the more intelligent ones) are not dissing Jesus or his message or things like that. Most of us have heard sermons or Masses or read the Bible and understand his ideas. What we are talking about is the Dogma of the Catholic Church...that is where we have problems. Jesus never proclaimed that we should establish Saints and worship them almost as much as him...that was something that Catholic Church started (for many reasons I won't bother to get into here, except to say it was probably done to make the conversion from polytheism to Catholicism more palatable). They claimed the right to be the sole interpretor of scripture, and created the dogma to back that up, and future dogma that was based on this right. That's fine, but even the most ardent Catholics admit that you can't live into today's life using the morals that were applicable during the time of Jesus. Otherwise we'd be selling our daughters into slavery, and killing all non-Catholics. Morals have progressed since then, and the Church has not progressed with them.
Granted The Church recognizes the need to reform itself on a couple of occasions, but they are only forced to do it when the people drag them, kicking and screaming the whole way, into it. The major abuses within the Catholic Church (which had always been present) weren't addressed until after Martin Luther broke off and created Protestant religion; the Church only addressed the issues that caused the separation when it seemed woefully obvious that they weren't winning back the people who had left. It gives the distinct impression of "Oh, alright. We'll fix things now, since you are making us."
We are at another point where the Catholic Church needs to seriously think about reform. For one, people aren't superstitious and uneducated anymore (at least not the majority like it was in the Middle Ages) and sainthood means nothing anymore, besides smacking of possible idolatry. Their stance on priestly marriage should be evaluated, since Jesus never said that priests should be that way, and the scripture even says that if you can't be celibate, then marriage is a good option. Their stance on women in positions of authority is horridly sexist and flies in the face of the fact that women are just as capable as men of doing things, not to mention it ignores the fact that for centuries it was the woman's job to see her children educated in the ideals of religion within the Catholic Church. Their stance on birth control has done nothing but helped to spread AIDS and create huge families which cannot feed themselves. Their stance on gay rights is completely forgetting the whole "Judge not, lest ye be judged" and "He who is without sin cast the first stone" thing. Pedophile priests are running rampant, and they have done NOTHING to fix that. It is time for reform of the Church and it's dogma. That is what we are arguing.
Do you have a response?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I'm glad that Hitman responded.
And you are right, to a certain extent. As a graduate student of European history from the Middle Ages to the Enlightenment, and currently researching a major paper on the subject of religion and reason and the concept of truth, I have to say that I am not anti-church. (When you talk of Church at the time frame I study, it is the Roman Catholic version, unless you specifically state Greek Orthodox). They have done many wonderful things, and have served as a unifying factor in people's lives when everything was going to hell around them. They've also been directly or indirectly responsible for some of the most beautiful architecture, art and music ever produced by humans. John Paul II in particular did many wonderful things during his pontificate, many of which Jingles mentioned.
But where I think you may be getting confused, Hitman, is that most of us here (at least the more intelligent ones) are not dissing Jesus or his message or things like that. Most of us have heard sermons or Masses or read the Bible and understand his ideas. What we are talking about is the Dogma of the Catholic Church...that is where we have problems. Jesus never proclaimed that we should establish Saints and worship them almost as much as him...that was something that Catholic Church started (for many reasons I won't bother to get into here, except to say it was probably done to make the conversion from polytheism to Catholicism more palatable). They claimed the right to be the sole interpretor of scripture, and created the dogma to back that up, and future dogma that was based on this right. That's fine, but even the most ardent Catholics admit that you can't live into today's life using the morals that were applicable during the time of Jesus. Otherwise we'd be selling our daughters into slavery, and killing all non-Catholics. Morals have progressed since then, and the Church has not progressed with them.
Granted The Church recognizes the need to reform itself on a couple of occasions, but they are only forced to do it when the people drag them, kicking and screaming the whole way, into it. The major abuses within the Catholic Church (which had always been present) weren't addressed until after Martin Luther broke off and created Protestant religion; the Church only addressed the issues that caused the separation when it seemed woefully obvious that they weren't winning back the people who had left. It gives the distinct impression of "Oh, alright. We'll fix things now, since you are making us."
We are at another point where the Catholic Church needs to seriously think about reform. For one, people aren't superstitious and uneducated anymore (at least not the majority like it was in the Middle Ages) and sainthood means nothing anymore, besides smacking of possible idolatry. Their stance on priestly marriage should be evaluated, since Jesus never said that priests should be that way, and the scripture even says that if you can't be celibate, then marriage is a good option. Their stance on women in positions of authority is horridly sexist and flies in the face of the fact that women are just as capable as men of doing things, not to mention it ignores the fact that for centuries it was the woman's job to see her children educated in the ideals of religion within the Catholic Church. Their stance on birth control has done nothing but helped to spread AIDS and create huge families which cannot feed themselves. Their stance on gay rights is completely forgetting the whole "Judge not, lest ye be judged" and "He who is without sin cast the first stone" thing. Pedophile priests are running rampant, and they have done NOTHING to fix that. It is time for reform of the Church and it's dogma. That is what we are arguing.
Do you have a response? [/QUOTE]
agreed. it needs to be 'upgraded'. i further
And you are right, to a certain extent. As a graduate student of European history from the Middle Ages to the Enlightenment, and currently researching a major paper on the subject of religion and reason and the concept of truth, I have to say that I am not anti-church. (When you talk of Church at the time frame I study, it is the Roman Catholic version, unless you specifically state Greek Orthodox). They have done many wonderful things, and have served as a unifying factor in people's lives when everything was going to hell around them. They've also been directly or indirectly responsible for some of the most beautiful architecture, art and music ever produced by humans. John Paul II in particular did many wonderful things during his pontificate, many of which Jingles mentioned.
But where I think you may be getting confused, Hitman, is that most of us here (at least the more intelligent ones) are not dissing Jesus or his message or things like that. Most of us have heard sermons or Masses or read the Bible and understand his ideas. What we are talking about is the Dogma of the Catholic Church...that is where we have problems. Jesus never proclaimed that we should establish Saints and worship them almost as much as him...that was something that Catholic Church started (for many reasons I won't bother to get into here, except to say it was probably done to make the conversion from polytheism to Catholicism more palatable). They claimed the right to be the sole interpretor of scripture, and created the dogma to back that up, and future dogma that was based on this right. That's fine, but even the most ardent Catholics admit that you can't live into today's life using the morals that were applicable during the time of Jesus. Otherwise we'd be selling our daughters into slavery, and killing all non-Catholics. Morals have progressed since then, and the Church has not progressed with them.
Granted The Church recognizes the need to reform itself on a couple of occasions, but they are only forced to do it when the people drag them, kicking and screaming the whole way, into it. The major abuses within the Catholic Church (which had always been present) weren't addressed until after Martin Luther broke off and created Protestant religion; the Church only addressed the issues that caused the separation when it seemed woefully obvious that they weren't winning back the people who had left. It gives the distinct impression of "Oh, alright. We'll fix things now, since you are making us."
We are at another point where the Catholic Church needs to seriously think about reform. For one, people aren't superstitious and uneducated anymore (at least not the majority like it was in the Middle Ages) and sainthood means nothing anymore, besides smacking of possible idolatry. Their stance on priestly marriage should be evaluated, since Jesus never said that priests should be that way, and the scripture even says that if you can't be celibate, then marriage is a good option. Their stance on women in positions of authority is horridly sexist and flies in the face of the fact that women are just as capable as men of doing things, not to mention it ignores the fact that for centuries it was the woman's job to see her children educated in the ideals of religion within the Catholic Church. Their stance on birth control has done nothing but helped to spread AIDS and create huge families which cannot feed themselves. Their stance on gay rights is completely forgetting the whole "Judge not, lest ye be judged" and "He who is without sin cast the first stone" thing. Pedophile priests are running rampant, and they have done NOTHING to fix that. It is time for reform of the Church and it's dogma. That is what we are arguing.
Do you have a response? [/QUOTE]
agreed. it needs to be 'upgraded'. i further
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sparrow wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
agreed. it needs to be 'upgraded'.
[/QUOTE]
GREAT!!
Where can I download my Catholic Church Vista?
agreed. it needs to be 'upgraded'.
[/QUOTE]
GREAT!!
Where can I download my Catholic Church Vista?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sparrow wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
agreed. it needs to be 'upgraded'.
[/QUOTE]
GREAT!!
Where can I download my Catholic Church Vista?[/QUOTE]
It's still in Beta.
agreed. it needs to be 'upgraded'.
[/QUOTE]
GREAT!!
Where can I download my Catholic Church Vista?[/QUOTE]
It's still in Beta.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sparrow wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
agreed. it needs to be 'upgraded'.
[/QUOTE]
GREAT!!
Where can I download my Catholic Church Vista?[/QUOTE]
It's still in Beta.[/QUOTE]
i heard they went to 8-track.
agreed. it needs to be 'upgraded'.
[/QUOTE]
GREAT!!
Where can I download my Catholic Church Vista?[/QUOTE]
It's still in Beta.[/QUOTE]
i heard they went to 8-track.