[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]inmydefence wrote: [/QUOTENAME]yes well done. you`re not the only one who can quote from andres site. i have spoken with him over msn about head voice and when its starts and stops. his knowledge of head voice (which he has obviously been taught by somebody at some stage) is different to what i have been taught by my voice coach. but then he has been trained in contemporary singing style, and i have been trained in opera. with my opera training i was taught that you have a natural singing range. ie a range that i can sing comfortably with the right breathing technique and it will sound nice and controlled. obvioulsy it has limits. my top opera note is a Asharp3. if i wish to sing higher than that i need to use head voice in which i need really need to concentrate on my forming the correct shape at the back of my mouth to lift the soft pallet to enable me to produce the tone with out harming my voice. this is how i have been taught which may very well be different to what you have been taught.
from wikipedia (although some say wiki is not reliable as anyone can contribute, they also qoute andres site, so it cant be THAT unreliable)
:According to Clippinger, often explanations for the physiological mechanisms behind the head voice alter from voice teacher to voice teacher. This is because, according to Clippinger: "In discussing the head voice it is the purpose to avoid as much as possible the mechanical construction of the instrument"
i know a lot of people who think falsetto is head voice!
so thanks for the response, but i dont think its at all fair of you to say i dont know what im talking about. im mearly talking about head voice as it is relevent to me and how it was taught to me.[/QUOTE]
i've been trained in opera too and this subject (head voice & falsetto)'s been taught me in same way that Andres meant.
i guess you're talking about tessittura in first paragraph ? it's already a concept which is decisive about which voice you are ;tenor ,baritone or bass. Moreover , if you have smooth passaggios as singing ,all of the registers can be included until the unnatural notes.
anyway, none of those subjects changes your discussions absurdity about "freddie's forcing voice makes songs better and attractive while steve perry could sing more natural /effortless those parts but it would make no sense for listeners."
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its not absurd at all. its my personal taste. i think the fact that freddie really pushes his voice to the limits gives Queen songs alot of emotion. take who wants to live forever for example. the part oh ooo oh oh! when love must die!!! would sound less powerful than if it was sung in the beautiful effortless way that steve perry sings. only pointed out to emphasise the difference between freddie singing queen songs and a tenor singing queen songs.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]inmydefence wrote: [/QUOTENAME]its not absurd at all. its my personal taste. i think the fact that freddie really pushes his voice to the limits gives Queen songs alot of emotion. take who wants to live forever for example. the part oh ooo oh oh! when love must die!!! would sound less powerful than if it was sung in the beautiful effortless way that steve perry sings. only pointed out to emphasise the difference between freddie singing queen songs and a tenor singing queen songs. [/QUOTE]
there are many ways to reach high notes. Sustaining the resonance , keeping the color of voice in a stability and gain to the sound more power are the keys for instance. Freddie could sing the part you mention "ooh ooh (?)" with a clear,effortless tone like he does with a melt passaggio technique in "dont try so hard" high notes , but it couldn't fit with it. It's all about tecnique which steve perry is hard to say in same category with freddie .
there are many ways to reach high notes. Sustaining the resonance , keeping the color of voice in a stability and gain to the sound more power are the keys for instance. Freddie could sing the part you mention "ooh ooh (?)" with a clear,effortless tone like he does with a melt passaggio technique in "dont try so hard" high notes , but it couldn't fit with it. It's all about tecnique which steve perry is hard to say in same category with freddie .
hold on a minute. there's one thing you need to remember, freddie was a ROCK vocalist. he had no voice training. he didnt take very good care of his voice, he smoked and drank alcohol during performance and wasnt averse to shouting his nuts off when his voice was tired! and you're saying he could use the correct "passagio" technique in 86 for who wants to live forever at a time when his voice was at its lowest quality in my humble opinion. it suited the rocky numbers but certainly wasnt a voice that could have pulled off DTSH. remember DTSH was recording five years later when he probably given up smoking due to the deterioration in his health. it certainly sound like it when you listen to innuendo. I agree he may have learned this "melting passagio" later in his life, maybe monserrate taught him?
freddie admitted he had little disciplin with his voice hence rejecting the role of PHANTOM when it was offered to him. freddie wasnt a genius when its came to vocal technique and a doubt very much until his work on barcelona that he had any idea what a melting passagio was! a rock vocalist with no voice training!? come off it.
whether it fitted the song or not a dont believe for a second he could have sung WWTLF in 86 the way he sang DTSH in 91!
freddie admitted he had little disciplin with his voice hence rejecting the role of PHANTOM when it was offered to him. freddie wasnt a genius when its came to vocal technique and a doubt very much until his work on barcelona that he had any idea what a melting passagio was! a rock vocalist with no voice training!? come off it.
whether it fitted the song or not a dont believe for a second he could have sung WWTLF in 86 the way he sang DTSH in 91!
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]inmydefence wrote: [/QUOTENAME]hold on a minute. there's one thing you need to remember, freddie was a ROCK vocalist. he had no voice training. he didnt take very good care of his voice, he smoked and drank alcohol during performance and wasnt averse to shouting his nuts off when his voice was tired! and you're saying he could use the correct "passagio" technique in 86 for who wants to live forever at a time when his voice was at its lowest quality in my humble opinion. it suited the rocky numbers but certainly wasnt a voice that could have pulled off DTSH. remember DTSH was recording five years later when he probably given up smoking due to the deterioration in his health. it certainly sound like it when you listen to innuendo. I agree he may have learned this "melting passagio" later in his life, maybe monserrate taught him?
freddie admitted he had little disciplin with his voice hence rejecting the role of PHANTOM when it was offered to him. freddie wasnt a genius when its came to vocal technique and a doubt very much until his work on barcelona that he had any idea what a melting passagio was! a rock vocalist with no voice training!? come off it.
whether it fitted the song or not a dont believe for a second he could have sung WWTLF in 86 the way he sang DTSH in 91![/QUOTE]
firstly,he had no regular voice training but it doesn't mean he couldn't find out how to use his voice in a correct way (though we can not say he did it because of he's a rock singer eventually).
on the other hand , i'm the one of those persons who believe that freddie learned from caballe. however , not the technique he used in DTSH.
if you listen to love of my life,nevermore,lily of the valley,middle-eight of TMOTBQ and kinds.. you will clearly see he had this technique already.
then if we put up all those things, i think that there's a little confusing concept perception in this subject between singing with an optional "powerful" manner and singing with a "forcing/pushing" manner.
freddie admitted he had little disciplin with his voice hence rejecting the role of PHANTOM when it was offered to him. freddie wasnt a genius when its came to vocal technique and a doubt very much until his work on barcelona that he had any idea what a melting passagio was! a rock vocalist with no voice training!? come off it.
whether it fitted the song or not a dont believe for a second he could have sung WWTLF in 86 the way he sang DTSH in 91![/QUOTE]
firstly,he had no regular voice training but it doesn't mean he couldn't find out how to use his voice in a correct way (though we can not say he did it because of he's a rock singer eventually).
on the other hand , i'm the one of those persons who believe that freddie learned from caballe. however , not the technique he used in DTSH.
if you listen to love of my life,nevermore,lily of the valley,middle-eight of TMOTBQ and kinds.. you will clearly see he had this technique already.
then if we put up all those things, i think that there's a little confusing concept perception in this subject between singing with an optional "powerful" manner and singing with a "forcing/pushing" manner.
all of the songs you mention are from the seventies and not the mid 80's when is the earer im comparing.
its widely agreed his voice got lower during this period maybe because of his smoking and gettin older.
when he often used light falsetto in the seventies songs the light falsetto in his mid range doesnt compare to the vocal performance in DTSH in my opinion is a more controlled blend of high head voice and flasetto. Innuendo is another example of how free his voice was in that higher register in the nineties though im aware this isnt melting passagio. I dont think his voice was ever that good before. "til the END of time!" and "on with the show!" are remarkable well performed and sound almost easy for him. but i guess we could argue about this till the cows come home! I think it comes down to a matter of perception and clearly mine is different to yours!
its widely agreed his voice got lower during this period maybe because of his smoking and gettin older.
when he often used light falsetto in the seventies songs the light falsetto in his mid range doesnt compare to the vocal performance in DTSH in my opinion is a more controlled blend of high head voice and flasetto. Innuendo is another example of how free his voice was in that higher register in the nineties though im aware this isnt melting passagio. I dont think his voice was ever that good before. "til the END of time!" and "on with the show!" are remarkable well performed and sound almost easy for him. but i guess we could argue about this till the cows come home! I think it comes down to a matter of perception and clearly mine is different to yours!
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]inmydefence wrote: [/QUOTENAME]all of the songs you mention are from the seventies and not the mid 80's when is the earer im comparing.
its widely agreed his voice got lower during this period maybe because of his smoking and gettin older.
when he often used light falsetto in the seventies songs the light falsetto in his mid range doesnt compare to the vocal performance in DTSH in my opinion is a more controlled blend of high head voice and flasetto. Innuendo is another example of how free his voice was in that higher register in the nineties though im aware this isnt melting passagio. I dont think his voice was ever that good before. "til the END of time!" and "on with the show!" are remarkable well performed and sound almost easy for him. but i guess we could argue about this till the cows come home! I think it comes down to a matter of perception and clearly mine is different to yours![/QUOTE]
all of those songs i mention are from 70's , because Queen songs which are suitable to use this technique were written in this period , Queen changed it's music structure in 80's , the way Freddie's vocal style evoluted in to more powerful-rough and lower singing form.
meanwhile freddie always mentioned that he'd love to have a huskier voice (thats why he did not care about smoke at all). However , all the changes we talked about not acceptable for falsetto register , it often effects head-chest-full voice. Videlicet , he was able to use this technique consistently in 80's too , if was needed.
its widely agreed his voice got lower during this period maybe because of his smoking and gettin older.
when he often used light falsetto in the seventies songs the light falsetto in his mid range doesnt compare to the vocal performance in DTSH in my opinion is a more controlled blend of high head voice and flasetto. Innuendo is another example of how free his voice was in that higher register in the nineties though im aware this isnt melting passagio. I dont think his voice was ever that good before. "til the END of time!" and "on with the show!" are remarkable well performed and sound almost easy for him. but i guess we could argue about this till the cows come home! I think it comes down to a matter of perception and clearly mine is different to yours![/QUOTE]
all of those songs i mention are from 70's , because Queen songs which are suitable to use this technique were written in this period , Queen changed it's music structure in 80's , the way Freddie's vocal style evoluted in to more powerful-rough and lower singing form.
meanwhile freddie always mentioned that he'd love to have a huskier voice (thats why he did not care about smoke at all). However , all the changes we talked about not acceptable for falsetto register , it often effects head-chest-full voice. Videlicet , he was able to use this technique consistently in 80's too , if was needed.
Sahin_Gu wrote:
"all of those songs i mention are from 70's , because Queen songs which are suitable to use this technique were written in this period , Queen changed it's music structure in 80's , the way Freddie's vocal style evoluted in to more powerful-rough and lower singing form."
exactly and when your full voice is lower you really have to push to get those higher notes... and when you do this it becomes almost impossible to take your falsetto low enough to blend it with full voice. part of the reason why freddie hardly ever used falsetto in under pressure and play the game live.
i also experienced this form of vocal fatigue in the past myself. If the full voice is lower then the passagio must be lower, and that in itself makes it completely different from his voice in the 90's. for example DTSH in the 80s would be almost completely falsetto rather than a beautiful blend of head voice and falsetto.
"all of those songs i mention are from 70's , because Queen songs which are suitable to use this technique were written in this period , Queen changed it's music structure in 80's , the way Freddie's vocal style evoluted in to more powerful-rough and lower singing form."
exactly and when your full voice is lower you really have to push to get those higher notes... and when you do this it becomes almost impossible to take your falsetto low enough to blend it with full voice. part of the reason why freddie hardly ever used falsetto in under pressure and play the game live.
i also experienced this form of vocal fatigue in the past myself. If the full voice is lower then the passagio must be lower, and that in itself makes it completely different from his voice in the 90's. for example DTSH in the 80s would be almost completely falsetto rather than a beautiful blend of head voice and falsetto.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]inmydefence wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Sahin_Gu wrote:
"all of those songs i mention are from 70's , because Queen songs which are suitable to use this technique were written in this period , Queen changed it's music structure in 80's , the way Freddie's vocal style evoluted in to more powerful-rough and lower singing form."
exactly and when your full voice is lower you really have to push to get those higher notes... and when you do this it becomes almost impossible to take your falsetto low enough to blend it with full voice. part of the reason why freddie hardly ever used falsetto in under pressure and play the game live.
i also experienced this form of vocal fatigue in the past myself. If the full voice is lower then the passagio must be lower, and that in itself makes it completely different from his voice in the 90's. for example DTSH in the 80s would be almost completely falsetto rather than a beautiful blend of head voice and falsetto.
[/QUOTE]
Freddie almost never (or rarely) used his falsetto during concerts he performed in his career. It's not about 80's or 70's , it's about some different reasons like vocal harmonization & gain power to songs.
And freddie didn't experience a tessittura lowering which can ruin his well known passaggio in that way you mentioned.
anyway , there's no end for this discussion.. No-one can say actual situation about him except let 70's,80's and early 90's Freddie together sit beside a piano and practise what is real.
"all of those songs i mention are from 70's , because Queen songs which are suitable to use this technique were written in this period , Queen changed it's music structure in 80's , the way Freddie's vocal style evoluted in to more powerful-rough and lower singing form."
exactly and when your full voice is lower you really have to push to get those higher notes... and when you do this it becomes almost impossible to take your falsetto low enough to blend it with full voice. part of the reason why freddie hardly ever used falsetto in under pressure and play the game live.
i also experienced this form of vocal fatigue in the past myself. If the full voice is lower then the passagio must be lower, and that in itself makes it completely different from his voice in the 90's. for example DTSH in the 80s would be almost completely falsetto rather than a beautiful blend of head voice and falsetto.
[/QUOTE]
Freddie almost never (or rarely) used his falsetto during concerts he performed in his career. It's not about 80's or 70's , it's about some different reasons like vocal harmonization & gain power to songs.
And freddie didn't experience a tessittura lowering which can ruin his well known passaggio in that way you mentioned.
anyway , there's no end for this discussion.. No-one can say actual situation about him except let 70's,80's and early 90's Freddie together sit beside a piano and practise what is real.
People are not being born as baritons and tenors. I am a baritone and I think that Freddie's voice was set around 1 tone higher. He had a good range which let him sing high notes, but he's certainly not a tenor. Roger Taylor is a tenor and Roger Hodgson (maybe the best example) is a tenor. Also James Dean Bradfield off Manic Street Preachers is a tenor, although a little bit"lower" than Hodgson. If You listen to them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZNMlbHwnEY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlKNVkU3DTA
Freddie wouldn't be able to sing A Design For Life live.
The other important thing is that one can use hus voice million ways and Freddie chose what he chose.
He was also a great live singer although he had worse nights and worse tours (magic tour, live killers tour, lotta Japan gigs) but as M. Caballe said he had been selling his voice. The Earl's Court's Death On Two Legs is a great performance, who cares for a vocal crack? He would have been sung better if he just stood and conctrated to sing, that's for sure, but this is not what it was about.
And comparisons? Bono was a great singer in 80s, that's for sure, but he's not anymore. Robert Plant was very weak, he really had more bad performances than good ones, but still he was a good performer. And Immigrant Song? Common, it was just fun and did anyone hear a good quality recording of it? How do You think Plant sings March Of The Black Queen?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZNMlbHwnEY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlKNVkU3DTA
Freddie wouldn't be able to sing A Design For Life live.
The other important thing is that one can use hus voice million ways and Freddie chose what he chose.
He was also a great live singer although he had worse nights and worse tours (magic tour, live killers tour, lotta Japan gigs) but as M. Caballe said he had been selling his voice. The Earl's Court's Death On Two Legs is a great performance, who cares for a vocal crack? He would have been sung better if he just stood and conctrated to sing, that's for sure, but this is not what it was about.
And comparisons? Bono was a great singer in 80s, that's for sure, but he's not anymore. Robert Plant was very weak, he really had more bad performances than good ones, but still he was a good performer. And Immigrant Song? Common, it was just fun and did anyone hear a good quality recording of it? How do You think Plant sings March Of The Black Queen?