If he thinks the sentence was too harsh, then I agree. It's not like he's doing this every day. Why not take a look at the numbers before claiming a conspiracy. Libby was an attorney. He'll never do that again and still has to pay all the fines. Should we have just gone out and shot the man?
PARDONS AND COMMUTATIONS
George W. Bush (2001 - )
Pardons -- 13
Commutations -- 4
Bill Clinton (1993-2001)
Pardons -- 396
Commutations -- 61
George H.W. Bush (1989-1993)
Pardons -- 74
Commutations: 3
Ronald Reagan (1981-1989)
Pardons -- 393
Commutations -- 13
Jimmy Carter (1977-1981)
Pardons -- 534
Commutations -- 29
Gerald Ford (1974-1977)
Pardons -- 382
Commutations -- 22
Richard Nixon (1969-1974)
Pardons -- 863
Commutations -- 60
Lyndon Johnson (1963-1969)
Pardons -- 960
Commutations -- 226
John F. Kennedy (1961-1963)
Pardons -- 472
Commutations -- 100
Dwight Eisenhower (1953-1961)
Pardons -- 1,110
Commutations -- 47
Harry Truman (1945-1953)
Pardons -- 1,913
Commutations -- 118
Thread
Posts in chronological order
Only 87 pardons between the two Bush's? Only 13 by W? Wow. Not many.
Take a look at the rest of those posted, that's a lot.
Take a look at the rest of those posted, that's a lot.
When was the last time he practiced law? Do you really think the fact that he will be disbarred means his income potential is shot?
My only point is that the claim that he is still being punished "because he's still got those fines to pay" is not quite accurate. He had supporters during his trial who helped raise money for his defense, and he'll have supporters during this phase too. They raised millions then; what's another $250,000? And if he gets pardoned in 18 months, then even that is gone.
My only point is that the claim that he is still being punished "because he's still got those fines to pay" is not quite accurate. He had supporters during his trial who helped raise money for his defense, and he'll have supporters during this phase too. They raised millions then; what's another $250,000? And if he gets pardoned in 18 months, then even that is gone.
And as for the list, while showing the use of presidential pardons, a little context should be used. It is my guess (and a quick search confirms most of it) that many of the pardons that presidents like Truman, Eisenhower, Nixon, and LBJ (Democrats and Republicans both) were for military violations like avoiding the draft or selective service. Carter, for instance, pardoned many draft dodgers from Vietnam, which surely accounted for a lot of his 530+. Sure, there were probably some political pardons thrown in for good measure, but don't assume that just because Truman had 2000, he abused it more than Reagan's 400 (for instance).
Personally, how Reagan could ever pardon George Steinbrenner is beyond me.
Personally, how Reagan could ever pardon George Steinbrenner is beyond me.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Micrówave wrote: [/QUOTENAME] He'll never do that again and still has to pay all the fines. [/QUOTE]
What fines? Poor ol´Scooter facing bancruptcy?Halliburton/KBR will gladly take the tab!!! ;-)
And by the way... If Libby has not commenced his sentence (meaning the clock has not even started on his sentence) then how can his sentence be commuted???
What fines? Poor ol´Scooter facing bancruptcy?Halliburton/KBR will gladly take the tab!!! ;-)
And by the way... If Libby has not commenced his sentence (meaning the clock has not even started on his sentence) then how can his sentence be commuted???
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]iron eagle wrote: [/QUOTENAME]...sure that will take his popularity down another 10 points or so.......
[/QUOTE]
Approval ratings don’t go into negative numbers... ;-)
[/QUOTE]
Approval ratings don’t go into negative numbers... ;-)
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Maz wrote: [/QUOTENAME]When was the last time he practiced law? Do you really think the fact that he will be disbarred means his income potential is shot?
My only point is that the claim that he is still being punished "because he's still got those fines to pay" is not quite accurate. He had supporters during his trial who helped raise money for his defense, and he'll have supporters during this phase too. They raised millions then; what's another $250,000? And if he gets pardoned in 18 months, then even that is gone.
[/QUOTE]
He is now a convicted felon, now, and forever. He will serve probation, and, yeah, the fine to him is probably pretty much meaningless....
I'm not a fan of this, but, 30 months of prison was waaaaay over the top. He simply took the brunt of the whole fiasco.
My only point is that the claim that he is still being punished "because he's still got those fines to pay" is not quite accurate. He had supporters during his trial who helped raise money for his defense, and he'll have supporters during this phase too. They raised millions then; what's another $250,000? And if he gets pardoned in 18 months, then even that is gone.
[/QUOTE]
He is now a convicted felon, now, and forever. He will serve probation, and, yeah, the fine to him is probably pretty much meaningless....
I'm not a fan of this, but, 30 months of prison was waaaaay over the top. He simply took the brunt of the whole fiasco.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Maz wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
My only point is that the claim that he is still being punished "because he's still got those fines to pay" is not quite accurate. He had supporters during his trial who helped raise money for his defense, and he'll have supporters during this phase too. They raised millions then; what's another $250,000? And if he gets pardoned in 18 months, then even that is gone.
[/QUOTE]
Paris Hilton got $1 million from Larry King the day she got out of jail. The checks are waaaaaaay more than Libby. Why aren't you attacking the Los Angeles Criminal Codes as well?
If you have a lot of money before you go to jail, odds are, you're going to have a lot of money after jail.
My point is what exactly did this guy do to warrant 3 years in jail. Don't generalize by saying "he lied under oath". Who was actually hurt by this?
My only point is that the claim that he is still being punished "because he's still got those fines to pay" is not quite accurate. He had supporters during his trial who helped raise money for his defense, and he'll have supporters during this phase too. They raised millions then; what's another $250,000? And if he gets pardoned in 18 months, then even that is gone.
[/QUOTE]
Paris Hilton got $1 million from Larry King the day she got out of jail. The checks are waaaaaaay more than Libby. Why aren't you attacking the Los Angeles Criminal Codes as well?
If you have a lot of money before you go to jail, odds are, you're going to have a lot of money after jail.
My point is what exactly did this guy do to warrant 3 years in jail. Don't generalize by saying "he lied under oath". Who was actually hurt by this?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Micrówave wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
My point is what exactly did this guy do to warrant 3 years in jail. Don't generalize by saying "he lied under oath". Who was actually hurt by this?[/QUOTE]
Who did Nixon actually hurt in Watergate? Doesn't mean he didn't commit a crime, though.
Libby was convicted of obstruction of justice because he lied under oath during an investigation into the leaking of classified information. He deliberately gave misinformation in a federal investigation in order to obscure the truth. Doesn't matter who does it or when they do it, laws are in place that are supposed to protect against that.
Now, as Haystacks mentioned, Libby bore the brunt of the punishment when the "real" crime, the leaking of classified info, was done by higher-ups. I'm sure many people would rather those "criminals" were tried in place of Scooter, but why hasn't that happened?
My point is what exactly did this guy do to warrant 3 years in jail. Don't generalize by saying "he lied under oath". Who was actually hurt by this?[/QUOTE]
Who did Nixon actually hurt in Watergate? Doesn't mean he didn't commit a crime, though.
Libby was convicted of obstruction of justice because he lied under oath during an investigation into the leaking of classified information. He deliberately gave misinformation in a federal investigation in order to obscure the truth. Doesn't matter who does it or when they do it, laws are in place that are supposed to protect against that.
Now, as Haystacks mentioned, Libby bore the brunt of the punishment when the "real" crime, the leaking of classified info, was done by higher-ups. I'm sure many people would rather those "criminals" were tried in place of Scooter, but why hasn't that happened?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Micrówave wrote: [/QUOTENAME]My point is what exactly did this guy do to warrant 3 years in jail. Don't generalize by saying "he lied under oath". Who was actually hurt by this?[/QUOTE]
C´mon... How can ANYONE, Republican or Democrat, possibly condone this blatant disregard of the law of the land?
I am quite sure that if you, Mr. ordinary citizen, were convicted of lying to a Grand Jury, for ANY reason whatsoever, especially at the higest levels of government, you would be doing your time with not even the passing notice of the President of the United States.
American citizens routinely spend more time behind bars for shoplifting or smoking pot, than convicted felon Mr. Libby will for his political coverup...
Democracy and justice in America are hurt...
C´mon... How can ANYONE, Republican or Democrat, possibly condone this blatant disregard of the law of the land?
I am quite sure that if you, Mr. ordinary citizen, were convicted of lying to a Grand Jury, for ANY reason whatsoever, especially at the higest levels of government, you would be doing your time with not even the passing notice of the President of the United States.
American citizens routinely spend more time behind bars for shoplifting or smoking pot, than convicted felon Mr. Libby will for his political coverup...
Democracy and justice in America are hurt...
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Micrówave wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Paris Hilton got $1 million from Larry King the day she got out of jail. The checks are waaaaaaay more than Libby. Why aren't you attacking the Los Angeles Criminal Codes as well?
[/QUOTE]
And we're really not going to obscure the issue by bringing that up, are we? I could care less about her. Stay on point, Mr. Home Cooking Appliance.
Paris Hilton got $1 million from Larry King the day she got out of jail. The checks are waaaaaaay more than Libby. Why aren't you attacking the Los Angeles Criminal Codes as well?
[/QUOTE]
And we're really not going to obscure the issue by bringing that up, are we? I could care less about her. Stay on point, Mr. Home Cooking Appliance.
One last comment while I'm on my high horse -
If you really want to investigate this commuting, then it would behoove us to know what similarly convicted persons have received in terms of jail time. I have yet to see that mentioned anywhere. Bush says 30 months is too much, Fitzgerald says it's in line with other cases. What does the record actually show?
Also, there are perfectly legitimate reasons a person should be/could be pardoned. What makes this case so controversial is that the commuting of his sentence comes before he served any actual time in jail and while the possibility of more indictments is out there. By having his sentence commuted, Libby can invoke the 5th in any other investigation and hamper further prosecutions.
Ok, two comments, but I'm off the high horse. For now, at least.
If you really want to investigate this commuting, then it would behoove us to know what similarly convicted persons have received in terms of jail time. I have yet to see that mentioned anywhere. Bush says 30 months is too much, Fitzgerald says it's in line with other cases. What does the record actually show?
Also, there are perfectly legitimate reasons a person should be/could be pardoned. What makes this case so controversial is that the commuting of his sentence comes before he served any actual time in jail and while the possibility of more indictments is out there. By having his sentence commuted, Libby can invoke the 5th in any other investigation and hamper further prosecutions.
Ok, two comments, but I'm off the high horse. For now, at least.
Allow me to get my Bush T-shirt on and try to answer:
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Maz wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Who did Nixon actually hurt in Watergate? Doesn't mean he didn't commit a crime, though.
[/QUOTE]
He used campaign money to fund a criminal act. Libby simply lied under oath. What about those two sportswriters who were jailed for not revealing their source during the Barry Bonds / Balco fiasco. You're saying a law is a law and those two also deserved their jail time?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Bohemian wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I am quite sure that if you, Mr. ordinary citizen, were convicted of lying to a Grand Jury, for ANY reason whatsoever, especially at the higest levels of government, you would be doing your time with not even the passing notice of the President of the United States. [/QUOTE]
Yep, those bastard sportswriters deserved every day they got. See above. By the way, keeping to baseball, Rafael Palmiero testified to a Grand Jury that he's never used steroids then tested positive less than a year later and was mentioned in Canseco's book as a frequent user. So you think we should be jailing baseball players NOT for using illegally obtained drugs but instead for LYING. Sorry, can't agree with you there.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Maz wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Micrówave wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Paris Hilton[/QUOTE]
Stay on point, Mr. Home Cooking Appliance.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, got sidetracked when it comes to all things Paris and Nicole.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Maz wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Who did Nixon actually hurt in Watergate? Doesn't mean he didn't commit a crime, though.
[/QUOTE]
He used campaign money to fund a criminal act. Libby simply lied under oath. What about those two sportswriters who were jailed for not revealing their source during the Barry Bonds / Balco fiasco. You're saying a law is a law and those two also deserved their jail time?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Bohemian wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I am quite sure that if you, Mr. ordinary citizen, were convicted of lying to a Grand Jury, for ANY reason whatsoever, especially at the higest levels of government, you would be doing your time with not even the passing notice of the President of the United States. [/QUOTE]
Yep, those bastard sportswriters deserved every day they got. See above. By the way, keeping to baseball, Rafael Palmiero testified to a Grand Jury that he's never used steroids then tested positive less than a year later and was mentioned in Canseco's book as a frequent user. So you think we should be jailing baseball players NOT for using illegally obtained drugs but instead for LYING. Sorry, can't agree with you there.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Maz wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Micrówave wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Paris Hilton[/QUOTE]
Stay on point, Mr. Home Cooking Appliance.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, got sidetracked when it comes to all things Paris and Nicole.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Maz wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Bush says 30 months is too much, Fitzgerald says it's in line with other cases. What does the record actually show?
Also, there are perfectly legitimate reasons a person should be/could be pardoned. What makes this case so controversial is that the commuting of his sentence comes before he served any actual time in jail and while the possibility of more indictments is out there. By having his sentence commuted, Libby can invoke the 5th in any other investigation and hamper further prosecutions.
[/QUOTE]
We're not talking about a murder conspiracy or funnelling funds here. HE SIMPLY LIED UNDER OATH and the persuaded Judge threw the book at him. There's your injustice. Why can't someone answer my question:
Who did Libby actually hurt? Who's livelihood was taken away? A lawyer convicted of lying under oath will never be approved by any state bar for the rest of his life. I don't care if he has another source of income, they took HIS livelihood away. Why do you guys want him tarred & feathered?
Also, there are perfectly legitimate reasons a person should be/could be pardoned. What makes this case so controversial is that the commuting of his sentence comes before he served any actual time in jail and while the possibility of more indictments is out there. By having his sentence commuted, Libby can invoke the 5th in any other investigation and hamper further prosecutions.
[/QUOTE]
We're not talking about a murder conspiracy or funnelling funds here. HE SIMPLY LIED UNDER OATH and the persuaded Judge threw the book at him. There's your injustice. Why can't someone answer my question:
Who did Libby actually hurt? Who's livelihood was taken away? A lawyer convicted of lying under oath will never be approved by any state bar for the rest of his life. I don't care if he has another source of income, they took HIS livelihood away. Why do you guys want him tarred & feathered?
I'm guessing it's been years since Libby actually earned a living as a licensed and practicing lawyer. How could they take his livelihood away if it wasn't his livelihood to begin with. As far as I know, nowhere does it say "must be licensed lawyer" in the job description for Vice Presidential Chief O' Staff. Also, an honest question, but I would assume that a pardon would vacate his conviction and make him eligible to be relicensed?
Libby obstructed a criminal investigation by lying under oath (I assume you wore your "Free Martha" shirt back in 2004?). As for who he hurt, one could make the case that it was Valarie Plame since he willingly blocked an investigation into how her livelihood was taken away. Personally, I don't think tarring and feathering him will do much since it's clear he's the patsy here (cue Jack Ruby).
Finally, Balco Journalists exposed the fact that some highly-paid and highly-buff athletes took possibly illegal performance-enhancing drugs. Its effect on the world is limited, though we can only hope that Bonds gets asterixed. Libby lied to protect higher-ups in an investigation into who outed a covert CIA agent while the nation is supposedly at war with Terror. Apples and oranges, or baseballs and red tape, or silver and llamas, or whatever other two things are far apart.
PARIS PARIS PARIS PARIS PARIS PARIS PARIS
Libby obstructed a criminal investigation by lying under oath (I assume you wore your "Free Martha" shirt back in 2004?). As for who he hurt, one could make the case that it was Valarie Plame since he willingly blocked an investigation into how her livelihood was taken away. Personally, I don't think tarring and feathering him will do much since it's clear he's the patsy here (cue Jack Ruby).
Finally, Balco Journalists exposed the fact that some highly-paid and highly-buff athletes took possibly illegal performance-enhancing drugs. Its effect on the world is limited, though we can only hope that Bonds gets asterixed. Libby lied to protect higher-ups in an investigation into who outed a covert CIA agent while the nation is supposedly at war with Terror. Apples and oranges, or baseballs and red tape, or silver and llamas, or whatever other two things are far apart.
PARIS PARIS PARIS PARIS PARIS PARIS PARIS