Clearly, this young woman broke the law by going out without a related male companion. However, I'd say being abducted and raped by seven men - Christ! Raped! By seven men! - is punishment enough. But that's me and I've no control over the Saudi regime.
My problem with this - beyond the obvious - is that the world is not roaring mad. When forced circumcision of young girls was brought into the mainstream, voices from all over condemned it. It's still being practiced, but if I have my facts straight, its practice is now against the law in many territories. Why are we not seeing a public outcry here? This isn't the first we've heard of cases like this. By now, I'd think we'd want it to change. Is the world so numb to it now that we're resigned to accept laws like this simply because 'that's the way it is over there'?
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Yep, exactly.
As long as most people in the west are convinced without proof that an invisible man in the sky exists, they aren't going to be able to see how similar beliefs (although more extreme) in another part of the world are the reason why this poor woman is about to be tortured, again. They'll simply write it off as a "cultural problem", regardless of its roots, and call it a day.
As long as most people in the west are convinced without proof that an invisible man in the sky exists, they aren't going to be able to see how similar beliefs (although more extreme) in another part of the world are the reason why this poor woman is about to be tortured, again. They'll simply write it off as a "cultural problem", regardless of its roots, and call it a day.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Yep, exactly.
As long as most people in the west are convinced without proof that an invisible man in the sky exists, they aren't going to be able to see how similar beliefs (although more extreme) in another part of the world are the reason why this poor woman is about to be tortured, again. They'll simply write it off as a "cultural problem", regardless of its roots, and call it a day.
[/QUOTE]
I hate what you've said here but I do agree with it. It just sounds so hopeless.
As long as most people in the west are convinced without proof that an invisible man in the sky exists, they aren't going to be able to see how similar beliefs (although more extreme) in another part of the world are the reason why this poor woman is about to be tortured, again. They'll simply write it off as a "cultural problem", regardless of its roots, and call it a day.
[/QUOTE]
I hate what you've said here but I do agree with it. It just sounds so hopeless.
Oh no - it's not about disobeying the rules - please read the reports and see the interviews which are available!
First of all, the victim was not married, she married after the rape.
Secondly, it's not true that women in Saudi Arabia cannot leave the house without permission - they are not allowed to "mingle" with unrelated men without permission of a male relative. In this case it's very questionable that there was any "mingling" because she was in a car with her friend on a public street in front of a mall when the 6 guys caught her and her friend.
Even if we assume that women should obey such rules without any resistance - it is very controversial that the victim violated these despicable rules.
Now - about how the world should react: they should protest, shout out, send emails and faxes to the court of the king. Hillary Clinton is right. All Western leaders should voice their objection. Not long ago King Abdullah was in England (under much protest by Human Rights activists) to buy war jets for several billion $$. They want to do their dirty business in peace. The more the public gets angry about such a case the bigger the chance they let her free to avoid more bad publicity.
First of all, the victim was not married, she married after the rape.
Secondly, it's not true that women in Saudi Arabia cannot leave the house without permission - they are not allowed to "mingle" with unrelated men without permission of a male relative. In this case it's very questionable that there was any "mingling" because she was in a car with her friend on a public street in front of a mall when the 6 guys caught her and her friend.
Even if we assume that women should obey such rules without any resistance - it is very controversial that the victim violated these despicable rules.
Now - about how the world should react: they should protest, shout out, send emails and faxes to the court of the king. Hillary Clinton is right. All Western leaders should voice their objection. Not long ago King Abdullah was in England (under much protest by Human Rights activists) to buy war jets for several billion $$. They want to do their dirty business in peace. The more the public gets angry about such a case the bigger the chance they let her free to avoid more bad publicity.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Oh no - it's not about disobeying the rules - please read the reports and see the interviews which are available!
First of all, the victim was not married, she married after the rape.
Secondly, it's not true that women in Saudi Arabia cannot leave the house without permission - they are not allowed to "mingle" with unrelated men without permission of a male relative. In this case it's very questionable that there was any "mingling" because she was in a car with her friend on a public street in front of a mall when the 6 guys caught her and her friend.
Even if we assume that women should obey such rules without any resistance - it is very controversial that the victim violated these despicable rules.
Now - about how the world should react: they should protest, shout out, send emails and faxes to the court of the king. Hillary Clinton is right. All Western leaders should voice their objection. Not long ago King Abdullah was in England (under much protest by Human Rights activists) to buy war jets for several billion $$. They want to do their dirty business in peace. The more the public gets angry about such a case the bigger the chance they let her free to avoid more bad publicity.[/QUOTE]
The term "mingling", unfortunately, is subjective. They were in a public place, yes, but she was not escorted by a male relative and so, in that regard, she broke the, as you correctly called it, "despicable" law.
We're not hearing much about this case on the news here anymore - though we are hearing repeatedly about how wonderful the weather was for the Thanksgiving Day Parade yesterday. It's like it's already old news. I've sent an email to Hillary Clinton thanking her for her comments on this and stating my concern that more is not being done. My fear, however, is that the more that's made of this, the worse this woman's treatment will be. I don't mean to imply nothing should be said or done, just that I'm afraid of what sentence they might inflict upon her next.
First of all, the victim was not married, she married after the rape.
Secondly, it's not true that women in Saudi Arabia cannot leave the house without permission - they are not allowed to "mingle" with unrelated men without permission of a male relative. In this case it's very questionable that there was any "mingling" because she was in a car with her friend on a public street in front of a mall when the 6 guys caught her and her friend.
Even if we assume that women should obey such rules without any resistance - it is very controversial that the victim violated these despicable rules.
Now - about how the world should react: they should protest, shout out, send emails and faxes to the court of the king. Hillary Clinton is right. All Western leaders should voice their objection. Not long ago King Abdullah was in England (under much protest by Human Rights activists) to buy war jets for several billion $$. They want to do their dirty business in peace. The more the public gets angry about such a case the bigger the chance they let her free to avoid more bad publicity.[/QUOTE]
The term "mingling", unfortunately, is subjective. They were in a public place, yes, but she was not escorted by a male relative and so, in that regard, she broke the, as you correctly called it, "despicable" law.
We're not hearing much about this case on the news here anymore - though we are hearing repeatedly about how wonderful the weather was for the Thanksgiving Day Parade yesterday. It's like it's already old news. I've sent an email to Hillary Clinton thanking her for her comments on this and stating my concern that more is not being done. My fear, however, is that the more that's made of this, the worse this woman's treatment will be. I don't mean to imply nothing should be said or done, just that I'm afraid of what sentence they might inflict upon her next.
News about this case on CNN. Looks like the Saudi government does not like the bad publicity after all. Funny how the prince thinks the case is used "against Saudi government and people".
From CNN:
"A Saudi court will review the case of a teenage gang rape victim sentenced to jail and flogging after she was convicted of violating the country's strict sex segregation laws, the foreign minister said Tuesday.
Saudi Arabia Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal, center, attended the Mideast peace conference Tuesday.
The remarks by Prince Saud al-Faisal, made in the United States and carried by the official Saudi Press Agency, were the latest in response to a salvo of international condemnation of Saudi judicial authorities' handling of the case.
It was also a sharp turn from a statement Saturday in which the Saudi Justice Ministry condemned the 19-year-old woman as an adulteress who had allegedly confessed to cheating on her husband. She was raped by seven men and then sentenced to six months prison and 200 lashes.
In the statement, the ministry said the flogging sentence would be carried out and condemned foreign interference. The statement likely sought to ease international outrage over the case by discrediting the woman.
On Tuesday, SPA quoted al-Faisal as saying "the Saudi judiciary will review the case."
But al-Faisal was also on the defensive and maintained the case was being used against Saudi authorities.
"What is outraging about this case is that it is being used against the Saudi government and people," he said, speaking in Annapolis, Maryland, where he was attending the U.S.-hosted Mideast peace conference"
From CNN:
"A Saudi court will review the case of a teenage gang rape victim sentenced to jail and flogging after she was convicted of violating the country's strict sex segregation laws, the foreign minister said Tuesday.
Saudi Arabia Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal, center, attended the Mideast peace conference Tuesday.
The remarks by Prince Saud al-Faisal, made in the United States and carried by the official Saudi Press Agency, were the latest in response to a salvo of international condemnation of Saudi judicial authorities' handling of the case.
It was also a sharp turn from a statement Saturday in which the Saudi Justice Ministry condemned the 19-year-old woman as an adulteress who had allegedly confessed to cheating on her husband. She was raped by seven men and then sentenced to six months prison and 200 lashes.
In the statement, the ministry said the flogging sentence would be carried out and condemned foreign interference. The statement likely sought to ease international outrage over the case by discrediting the woman.
On Tuesday, SPA quoted al-Faisal as saying "the Saudi judiciary will review the case."
But al-Faisal was also on the defensive and maintained the case was being used against Saudi authorities.
"What is outraging about this case is that it is being used against the Saudi government and people," he said, speaking in Annapolis, Maryland, where he was attending the U.S.-hosted Mideast peace conference"
$5 says they don't even bring this subject up in these "mid-east peace talks".
In the end (no pun intended), they'll give her the 200 and THEN decide it was not right. The apology letter will look very nice and official, though.
In the end (no pun intended), they'll give her the 200 and THEN decide it was not right. The apology letter will look very nice and official, though.
I just hope you are not right, although nothing has been decided yet and it's well possible it will happen exactly as you say. Our hope is the pressure by as many people as possible. The unfriendly reception of King Abdullah by Human Rights protesters in England last month may help to persuade the government that it's better to stop the gross injustice in order to avoid further public protests. It's the only hope for this poor woman.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Micrówave wrote: [/QUOTENAME]$5 says they don't even bring this subject up in these "mid-east peace talks".[/QUOTE]
Only $5? You've got a good chance to make some top dollar here!
Only $5? You've got a good chance to make some top dollar here!
I wanted to bring that topic back up because we did not follow it here to the end.
In the mean time the rape victim was pardoned by King Abdullah
http://www.stophonourkillings.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2257&newlang=german
At least she was spared the additional torture which is very good news.
In the mean time the rape victim was pardoned by King Abdullah
http://www.stophonourkillings.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2257&newlang=german
At least she was spared the additional torture which is very good news.
^ It is very good news.
What's upsetting, though, is that there are still those who feel the sentence was just and that only international pressure set it aside. That means, sadly, that future cases like this will have an awful outcome. I highly doubt the Saudi government will allow info about those future cases to go to press.
And notice the end of the article? The male who was with this victim, who was also a victim, might still be punished. There is no word about him.
That makes me question the punishment for the perpetrators. Their sentences were minor compared to the victim's. But... since they raped not just her, but a man as well, shouldn't there be harsher punishment for them? I mean, homosexuality and homosexual acts are considered abominations in the Muslim faith, yes? Shouldn't those men have been severely punished for that if not for raping a woman (who, according to their laws, seemed to have deserved/earned what she got)?
What's upsetting, though, is that there are still those who feel the sentence was just and that only international pressure set it aside. That means, sadly, that future cases like this will have an awful outcome. I highly doubt the Saudi government will allow info about those future cases to go to press.
And notice the end of the article? The male who was with this victim, who was also a victim, might still be punished. There is no word about him.
That makes me question the punishment for the perpetrators. Their sentences were minor compared to the victim's. But... since they raped not just her, but a man as well, shouldn't there be harsher punishment for them? I mean, homosexuality and homosexual acts are considered abominations in the Muslim faith, yes? Shouldn't those men have been severely punished for that if not for raping a woman (who, according to their laws, seemed to have deserved/earned what she got)?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME]What's upsetting, though, is that there are still those who feel the sentence was just and that only international pressure set it aside. That means, sadly, that future cases like this will have an awful outcome. I highly doubt the Saudi government will allow info about those future cases to go to press.[/QUOTE]
A valid concern. But at least in this case, a difference was made.
[QUOTE]The BBC's Heba Saleh says the king's decision to pardon the woman victim is already arousing controversy with some contributors to conservative websites, who say he has breached the rules of religion in order to appease critics in the West.
...
The justice ministry recently rejected what it saw as "foreign interference" in the case and insisted the ruling was legal and that the woman had confessed to having an affair with her fellow rape victim.[/QUOTE]
Religion - the only thing that can make good people do bad things. Some parts of the world are still centuries behind us.
A question for any history majors here... how and why did the middle east miss the enlightenment? How did the western world escape the stranglehold of the Catholic church, but parts of the eastern world missed out?
A valid concern. But at least in this case, a difference was made.
[QUOTE]The BBC's Heba Saleh says the king's decision to pardon the woman victim is already arousing controversy with some contributors to conservative websites, who say he has breached the rules of religion in order to appease critics in the West.
...
The justice ministry recently rejected what it saw as "foreign interference" in the case and insisted the ruling was legal and that the woman had confessed to having an affair with her fellow rape victim.[/QUOTE]
Religion - the only thing that can make good people do bad things. Some parts of the world are still centuries behind us.
A question for any history majors here... how and why did the middle east miss the enlightenment? How did the western world escape the stranglehold of the Catholic church, but parts of the eastern world missed out?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME]^ It is very good news.
What's upsetting, though, is that there are still those who feel the sentence was just and that only international pressure set it aside. That means, sadly, that future cases like this will have an awful outcome. I highly doubt the Saudi government will allow info about those future cases to go to press.
And notice the end of the article? The male who was with this victim, who was also a victim, might still be punished. There is no word about him.
That makes me question the punishment for the perpetrators. Their sentences were minor compared to the victim's. But... since they raped not just her, but a man as well, shouldn't there be harsher punishment for them? I mean, homosexuality and homosexual acts are considered abominations in the Muslim faith, yes? Shouldn't those men have been severely punished for that if not for raping a woman (who, according to their laws, seemed to have deserved/earned what she got)?
[/QUOTE]
I agree with everything you say. It's truly impossible to "rule" into another country's judiciary system and the whole case is just outrageous. However, outside pressure can avoid the worst in some cases and this is what happened here. The woman who suffered that much was spared the additional torture and pain because many people from outside the country protested (for example Hillary Clinton). Next time we may fail but this one woman was helped.
Just a few examples from Iran that make your blood freeze.
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/index.php?storytopic=6
But here is a case when international solidarity and protests made a difference
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/01/iranian-rape-victim-nazanin-fatehi.html
Btw, the man who was with the raped woman was also pardoned
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/12/19/saudi.rape/index.html
What's upsetting, though, is that there are still those who feel the sentence was just and that only international pressure set it aside. That means, sadly, that future cases like this will have an awful outcome. I highly doubt the Saudi government will allow info about those future cases to go to press.
And notice the end of the article? The male who was with this victim, who was also a victim, might still be punished. There is no word about him.
That makes me question the punishment for the perpetrators. Their sentences were minor compared to the victim's. But... since they raped not just her, but a man as well, shouldn't there be harsher punishment for them? I mean, homosexuality and homosexual acts are considered abominations in the Muslim faith, yes? Shouldn't those men have been severely punished for that if not for raping a woman (who, according to their laws, seemed to have deserved/earned what she got)?
[/QUOTE]
I agree with everything you say. It's truly impossible to "rule" into another country's judiciary system and the whole case is just outrageous. However, outside pressure can avoid the worst in some cases and this is what happened here. The woman who suffered that much was spared the additional torture and pain because many people from outside the country protested (for example Hillary Clinton). Next time we may fail but this one woman was helped.
Just a few examples from Iran that make your blood freeze.
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/index.php?storytopic=6
But here is a case when international solidarity and protests made a difference
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/01/iranian-rape-victim-nazanin-fatehi.html
Btw, the man who was with the raped woman was also pardoned
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/12/19/saudi.rape/index.html