[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Yara wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Cwazy little thing wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Good lord, I never expected to see such a thing on here!
Well, I think porn serves its purpose - and during those barren spells when you're not having sex its a useful aid, haha!
Some women like it, and for men its not essential, but it is very useful - men are biologically programmed to work from visual stimulus in these sorts of things, so when its just you and Mrs Hand, its much better than staring at a wall!
As for the degrading part, I think theres a few sides to this. Firstly, hardcore porn like that Yara described actually bores me for the reasons Yara and someone else mentioned - its fake and exaggerated, and I dont believe for a second anyone is really enjoying themselves as much as the soundtrack would make out, hehe.
Home movies are better, and feature less of the degrading and fakery.
However, there is of course some homemade stuff that involves the portrayal of women as submissive, and sex objects. Why?
Well first of all - with homemade stuff, its far more likely that its all consensual, and the reason for it is that both the man and woman find their respective roles enjoyable or arousing in some way: in which case, fair enough-as long as no one gets hurt, thats all good in my book.
Why are these themes so prevailant in hardcore, and sometimes in homemade stuff?
I think its an unfortunate fact that sexually most men are programmed to like to be in control. In fact, not just sexually - generally men like to be in charge. Its all biology - were built to be the big chest thumping male. While this is tempered in a civilised society by respect and equality, during sex, perhaps the most primal thing, often men, to varying degrees are still more aroused when in control, and when a woman is to some extent submissive.
It is of course a matter of degree - I doubt many people want to go as far as hardcore porn goes, and of course some people like it the other way, where the woman runs the show like some sort of dominatrix. Or just a balance.
Porn is fantasy though - it takes these things as far as they can go, which is fine, because its not real, and its controlled, as long as people remember that, everything is alright.
I think you should distinguish between "love making" and "fucking" - the former being a deep, sensual thing two people in love do, the latter being more about pure pleasure and gratification, and that is what porn is about.
Dont worry Yara - I believe in a thing called love, and I dont think many people want to have sex like in a porn film. Unless thats what you're into, hehe.[/QUOTE]
Good God! Thanks, many thanks for the answer!
Well...I see. But, like, as you say, it's all partially rooted in biology. The movies, in a way, excite this side of human nature, so to speak, while other cultural manifestations tend to keep it more under control.
Like...do you think, yourself, that if a girl you're in love with, a girl you really like, don't want to do the kinds of thing you see in the movies, like, do you think it's likely that you'd end up doing it with someone else?
Now, that's my worry. Because...I mean, judging from what I've seen, AND LISTENING TO BOYS TALK!!!, I get appaled, really. I...really. It's very degrading, very. It's not like they're doing sex and, that's it. It's not even...there are things I can't describe, it's disgusting and ugly, and I listen to men talking or boys talking to each other, and they say things that I saw in these movies, you see?
So, that's my worry. Because, of course, in all relantionships, I suppose, both sides have to make concessions and to be tolerant to a great extent. But there's always a limit, isn't there? And I'm afraid that, if the woman who's not much into this puts the limit, the man goes out of the limit with someone else! It's a risk, isn't it?
So basically...if you see guys talking...and you see guys talking...like, I feel terrible if I pass by because it's as if the guys regarded us as a sex target, and that's it.
Now, of course I want boys to have sex with me. lol I don't want to scare them off! But, now, I don't to be seen as just that...if you see these things, I'm still shocked by the power of the images, I guess, it's too brutal...
Now, I'm NOT suggesting it should be censured or anything like that, neither am I being judgemental. I'm just point out my worries.
Yes, I agree that what's sad for some, may be funny for others or exciting.
I'm by no means putting myself above others or something like that in a moral sense. It's just the way I feel, and people feel differently, it's like humor: what's funny for some may be outrageous for others but that doesn't imply that someone's wrong there. It's very subjective.
Now...the thing about the hand and the painting wall was funny. Hahaha.
Ok. Well, thanks for the reply.
You were great, really.
Thanks.
*hug* [/QUOTE]
Hey Yara, I'll reply to your answer since it was most directly in response to mine, but I'd like to point out that I agree with most of YourValentine's sentiments above. Very sensible words.
I think the key is in the word you used a few times in that post - "Boys".
Its a maturity thing - some boys love to talk a big game and are prone to talking nonesense - especially in front of their friends, but it is almost always a show to seen impressive and macho.
No - this is not what men want at all, on the whole.
Of course, everyone has their own personal limits, and it comes down to what you feel comfortable with. My advice is to be open minded, but as soon as you dont feel comfortable, dont feel you should go any further.
You'll probably find that the more you are with someone, the more things you'll be interested in trying with them - its partially a trust thing. But, a bit of harmless fun roleplaying aside, you should never feel degraded.
My male perspective is that no, women are not just sex objects. They are a million things and more - sure, sometimes sex is something that is important and at the forefront of your mind, but any man who loses sight of the person is not worth your time, or anyone elses time.
In any relationship there is a risk the other person might go elsewhere, so it comes down to trust, compromise and communication if you ask me. Just be willing to talk about these things and explain your limit, and be open minded. I believe as long as two people love each other, and get along and communicate, you give yourself the best chance that you'll be ok.
You seem like a very nice person - any man who goes elsewhere because you set a reasonable limit is a fool, and not someone you should want to be with in the first place. I think there are lots of good people out there who are better than that, and Im sure you wouldnt have this problem with someone like that.
*hug* for you too! :)
Take care.
Thread
Posts in chronological order
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]At best I feel sorry about people who need a porn movie because they do not have a fulfilling sex life. I rather not say what I think about people who produce these movies and make money from them. We all know that the actors often are not allowed to use condoms and HIV is very frequent among porn actors. For me that is an ugly form of slavery and while I am not in favour of censorship I think it's better not to support this ugly business by buying the movies.[/QUOTE]
With lots of respect for most of what you're saying, I dont think anyone "needs" porn unless they have a problem, but does anyone need chocolate? They serve similar puposes - they fulfill a desire of some sort - its just something you want.
When you're not in a relationship or sleeping around (not something I do), you dont have any sex life, let alone a fulfilling one, so unless you object to masturbation (which I suppose you might) I dont see why you would object to some sort of stimulus to aid that purpose.
I'd also like to say that western porn at the very least is quite stringently regulated, and the stuff which sells loads and has a big market does not involve the kind of slavery of which you speak at all - it really is people in it because they enjoy it, and they can be well paid if they work at it.
Yes, there is probably an underground market where things are far less controlled, but this is not the mainstream or the norm.
As for this "not allowed to use condoms" and AIDS issue - again, in the mainstream market all the actors have to undergo regular STD tests, and are not allowed to make these films unless they have done so, and are clear. It is only on those conditions that no condoms are used (again I recognise there maybe an underground market with less regulation). "The porn industry" as most people recognise it in Western Europe and the US is quite well controlled.
It isnt the big bad beastie some would have you believe - it gets a bad rep from people who dont know too much about it because of the controversial subject matter.
With lots of respect for most of what you're saying, I dont think anyone "needs" porn unless they have a problem, but does anyone need chocolate? They serve similar puposes - they fulfill a desire of some sort - its just something you want.
When you're not in a relationship or sleeping around (not something I do), you dont have any sex life, let alone a fulfilling one, so unless you object to masturbation (which I suppose you might) I dont see why you would object to some sort of stimulus to aid that purpose.
I'd also like to say that western porn at the very least is quite stringently regulated, and the stuff which sells loads and has a big market does not involve the kind of slavery of which you speak at all - it really is people in it because they enjoy it, and they can be well paid if they work at it.
Yes, there is probably an underground market where things are far less controlled, but this is not the mainstream or the norm.
As for this "not allowed to use condoms" and AIDS issue - again, in the mainstream market all the actors have to undergo regular STD tests, and are not allowed to make these films unless they have done so, and are clear. It is only on those conditions that no condoms are used (again I recognise there maybe an underground market with less regulation). "The porn industry" as most people recognise it in Western Europe and the US is quite well controlled.
It isnt the big bad beastie some would have you believe - it gets a bad rep from people who dont know too much about it because of the controversial subject matter.
Cwazy is correct about the porn industry. In fact, if you had a room of 10 porn stars and 10 regular people, and you had to choose one of them to have sex with, you're much better off (from an STD standpoint) with the porn stars.
Everybody in this thread, get fucking. Go crazy; get your fucking gear off and let's go for it right now. We'll do it in front of Treasure Moment's house; hell he can join in.
No no wait - we'll turn his GIG in front of thousands of people into a massive fucking orgy. Fuck fuck fuckety fuck fuck pants! All over the place.
*ahem*
Anyway, I'd like to venture my sincere opinion. Lesbian porn is awesome. Consenting females + baby oil + fuckmeboots = great viewing.
No look, honestly.... a lot of porn makes me feel uncomfortable. Especially the stuff where you can tell one (or more) of the 'actors' are drugged out of their heads. I don't like that. It genuinely makes me feel bad; sure, maybe they're as high as a kite and don't give a shit that they're being rammed in three holes at once, but for me personally.. I don't like watching people have to get out of their brains to do something.
I hear tell that there's no porn industry in Perth, though. As a failed wannabe filmmaker, I've got to say I would really like to start such an industry down here. I'd like to do it right, though. It would be really fun to do arty films, and use couples as opposed to the biggest cocks/tits I can find.
*ahem* I'm on the verge of not posting this, it makes absolutely no sense and I'm probably going to get unwanted spam from morons again.
Fuck it, I'll just go with my original statement. Fuck each other, go crazy. I'm personally on my way to every Queenzoner's house right now with a 20 inch dildo; except for Jake and Yara. There are some things you just don't want to catch.
Fuck in the streets people, and if there's a camera there, so much the better.
No no wait - we'll turn his GIG in front of thousands of people into a massive fucking orgy. Fuck fuck fuckety fuck fuck pants! All over the place.
*ahem*
Anyway, I'd like to venture my sincere opinion. Lesbian porn is awesome. Consenting females + baby oil + fuckmeboots = great viewing.
No look, honestly.... a lot of porn makes me feel uncomfortable. Especially the stuff where you can tell one (or more) of the 'actors' are drugged out of their heads. I don't like that. It genuinely makes me feel bad; sure, maybe they're as high as a kite and don't give a shit that they're being rammed in three holes at once, but for me personally.. I don't like watching people have to get out of their brains to do something.
I hear tell that there's no porn industry in Perth, though. As a failed wannabe filmmaker, I've got to say I would really like to start such an industry down here. I'd like to do it right, though. It would be really fun to do arty films, and use couples as opposed to the biggest cocks/tits I can find.
*ahem* I'm on the verge of not posting this, it makes absolutely no sense and I'm probably going to get unwanted spam from morons again.
Fuck it, I'll just go with my original statement. Fuck each other, go crazy. I'm personally on my way to every Queenzoner's house right now with a 20 inch dildo; except for Jake and Yara. There are some things you just don't want to catch.
Fuck in the streets people, and if there's a camera there, so much the better.
@ Cwazy little thing
I do not "object" to using any stimulus, my point is that you do not need it when you are in a sexual relationship just as you do not need McDonalds when you have the chance to get regular, tasty meals. That does not mean McVomit should be closed. It's not a moral issue for me at all, just a matter of taste. I also do not object to masturbation at all, why should I? Mainly I wanted to make the point that a young girl should not feel frightened by hard corn porn movies thinking this is what you have to do if you want to make your sex partner happy.
As to the AIDS issue, I am sure I did not dream this up. I remember seeing a movie about the issue and when I google "AIDS + porn actors" I get 200 000 results, for example this one:
Porn actors worry as AIDS spreads in industry
Main Category: HIV / AIDS
Article Date: 02 May 2004 - 0:00 PDT
As AIDS spreads in the porn industry in the USA, actors worry and ask for improved health care, more pay and better schedules. Many porn industry actors are attempting to unionise.
Earlier on this week a group of 35 actors had a private meeting. Every single one of them voted to draw up a list of demands and a bill of rights for people who work in the porn industry.
The porn industry in the USA is a large employer and a huge earner.
The actors are arranging for more meetings where they will discuss health care provision, pay and scheduling.
According to a report in the Los Angeles Times, porn industry actors are paid either per scene or per day, there is not overtime pay. On some occasions they have to work 20 hours in one single day.
So far three people have tested positive for AIDS, the first one being Darren James. The industry in California has closed down voluntarily for two months.
Porn actors in the USA tried to unionise in 1993 and 1998 and failed.
It is said that this AIDS outbreak originated in Brazil where Darren James played scenes without a condom. However, Brazilian porn industry actors (in Brazil) have expressed concern that the American porn industry actually films sexual scenes without the actors wearing condoms. Apparently, this habit of not wearing condoms when shooting scenes is more common in the USA porn industry than the Brazilian industry.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/7866.php
I do not "object" to using any stimulus, my point is that you do not need it when you are in a sexual relationship just as you do not need McDonalds when you have the chance to get regular, tasty meals. That does not mean McVomit should be closed. It's not a moral issue for me at all, just a matter of taste. I also do not object to masturbation at all, why should I? Mainly I wanted to make the point that a young girl should not feel frightened by hard corn porn movies thinking this is what you have to do if you want to make your sex partner happy.
As to the AIDS issue, I am sure I did not dream this up. I remember seeing a movie about the issue and when I google "AIDS + porn actors" I get 200 000 results, for example this one:
Porn actors worry as AIDS spreads in industry
Main Category: HIV / AIDS
Article Date: 02 May 2004 - 0:00 PDT
As AIDS spreads in the porn industry in the USA, actors worry and ask for improved health care, more pay and better schedules. Many porn industry actors are attempting to unionise.
Earlier on this week a group of 35 actors had a private meeting. Every single one of them voted to draw up a list of demands and a bill of rights for people who work in the porn industry.
The porn industry in the USA is a large employer and a huge earner.
The actors are arranging for more meetings where they will discuss health care provision, pay and scheduling.
According to a report in the Los Angeles Times, porn industry actors are paid either per scene or per day, there is not overtime pay. On some occasions they have to work 20 hours in one single day.
So far three people have tested positive for AIDS, the first one being Darren James. The industry in California has closed down voluntarily for two months.
Porn actors in the USA tried to unionise in 1993 and 1998 and failed.
It is said that this AIDS outbreak originated in Brazil where Darren James played scenes without a condom. However, Brazilian porn industry actors (in Brazil) have expressed concern that the American porn industry actually films sexual scenes without the actors wearing condoms. Apparently, this habit of not wearing condoms when shooting scenes is more common in the USA porn industry than the Brazilian industry.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/7866.php
I DON'T NEED PORN, SHRED SATISFIES ME SEXUALLY.
Cheers,
Hor
Cheers,
Hor
for Barb:
there was a big campaign about 10-15 years ago in the porn industry [esp here in the UK] to get everyone involved tested on a regular basis for HIV/AIDS and there was for quite some time a regulation that films would not get released unless ALL male participants [i refuse to call them actors] used a condom in every scene.
Now,for some reason, things have changed over the last 5-10 years,mainly because using a condom in a film was seen as 'uncool' which just beggers disbelief at how stupid they are if that is true.i remember the interview last year of one porn star that was ORDERED by his director to perform gay sex on film without a condom in an orgy scene and contracted HIV through doing it [there was a big legal claim and it made the national tv news here in the UK].
for Yara [and any other woman for that matter]:
if you really want to freak a bloke out who gives the ol' "machismo" act just tell him [to his face] that porn really gets you 'in the mood'.as many of you know i have MANY female friends in the real world and they swear that by saying this the bloke jumps back into his shell quicker than Usain Bolt heading for an 'all-you-can-eat-buffet',as they cant handle the fact that porn gets the woman 'going' better than he does and inveribly the subject is dropped,never to be mentioned again.
there are always exceptions though,dont try this ploy with harem masters or they will call your bluff ;-]
there was a big campaign about 10-15 years ago in the porn industry [esp here in the UK] to get everyone involved tested on a regular basis for HIV/AIDS and there was for quite some time a regulation that films would not get released unless ALL male participants [i refuse to call them actors] used a condom in every scene.
Now,for some reason, things have changed over the last 5-10 years,mainly because using a condom in a film was seen as 'uncool' which just beggers disbelief at how stupid they are if that is true.i remember the interview last year of one porn star that was ORDERED by his director to perform gay sex on film without a condom in an orgy scene and contracted HIV through doing it [there was a big legal claim and it made the national tv news here in the UK].
for Yara [and any other woman for that matter]:
if you really want to freak a bloke out who gives the ol' "machismo" act just tell him [to his face] that porn really gets you 'in the mood'.as many of you know i have MANY female friends in the real world and they swear that by saying this the bloke jumps back into his shell quicker than Usain Bolt heading for an 'all-you-can-eat-buffet',as they cant handle the fact that porn gets the woman 'going' better than he does and inveribly the subject is dropped,never to be mentioned again.
there are always exceptions though,dont try this ploy with harem masters or they will call your bluff ;-]
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]StoneColdClassicQueen wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr Mercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]StoneColdClassicQueen wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Why are your questions so long?? [/QUOTE]
They arent long at all. Yara has just explained her reasons and thoughts behind asking the question, thats all.[/QUOTE]
Oh. Well I don't enjoy reading much anymore and all thanks to my stupid 9th grade English teacher..
She sure does a lot of explaining. [/QUOTE]
As far as I can see your understanding of English is perfectly fine. Infact it is better than a lot of so called English speakers to be honest.
What I meant in my response was that, sometimes someone can put something over as if it was a question, but in actual fact it really isnt. An example would be this: - you just happen to do something, anything, then you stop and say to yourself, "Why did I do that?". Now you would invariably know the answer to the question therefore making it a non-question and more of statement. This is what I see Yara doing here. Her initial post seems to be about why some people seem to enjoy porn and yet she doesnt. And by doing so in this way, it isnt really a question, but it is designed to try and invoke a response from people.
They arent long at all. Yara has just explained her reasons and thoughts behind asking the question, thats all.[/QUOTE]
Oh. Well I don't enjoy reading much anymore and all thanks to my stupid 9th grade English teacher..
She sure does a lot of explaining. [/QUOTE]
As far as I can see your understanding of English is perfectly fine. Infact it is better than a lot of so called English speakers to be honest.
What I meant in my response was that, sometimes someone can put something over as if it was a question, but in actual fact it really isnt. An example would be this: - you just happen to do something, anything, then you stop and say to yourself, "Why did I do that?". Now you would invariably know the answer to the question therefore making it a non-question and more of statement. This is what I see Yara doing here. Her initial post seems to be about why some people seem to enjoy porn and yet she doesnt. And by doing so in this way, it isnt really a question, but it is designed to try and invoke a response from people.
From porno to communists to porno....
XD
XD
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]JoxerTheDeityPirate wrote: [/QUOTENAME]for Barb:
there was a big campaign about 10-15 years ago in the porn industry [esp here in the UK] to get everyone involved tested on a regular basis for HIV/AIDS and there was for quite some time a regulation that films would not get released unless ALL male participants [i refuse to call them actors] used a condom in every scene.
Now,for some reason, things have changed over the last 5-10 years,mainly because using a condom in a film was seen as 'uncool' which just beggers disbelief at how stupid they are if that is true.i remember the interview last year of one porn star that was ORDERED by his director to perform gay sex on film without a condom in an orgy scene and contracted HIV through doing it [there was a big legal claim and it made the national tv news here in the UK].
for Yara [and any other woman for that matter]:
if you really want to freak a bloke out who gives the ol' "machismo" act just tell him [to his face] that porn really gets you 'in the mood'.as many of you know i have MANY female friends in the real world and they swear that by saying this the bloke jumps back into his shell quicker than Usain Bolt heading for an 'all-you-can-eat-buffet',as they cant handle the fact that porn gets the woman 'going' better than he does and inveribly the subject is dropped,never to be mentioned again.
there are always exceptions though,dont try this ploy with harem masters or they will call your bluff ;-][/QUOTE]
Hahaha. Thanks. You're fun, Joxer, and very kind. Now, I don't think I'm going to adopt this strategy because if the boy calls my bluff, I'm really...f***** :D
I wanna thank you all!, YourValentine, Cwazy (why Cwazy!?) Little Thing (it really, well, it was a very thoughtful and, I think, honest, answer, thank you, it helped a lot), Joxer, Mr. Mercury, Zebonka12, MusicMan, Bad Horsie (you're fun!) and, yes!!, Mr. Jingles and Poo Again - I was the one who wrote "Industry" there, and porn sells, of course, and what it sells is, well, controversial, so it's just natural that the debate wouldn't be confined to sexual behavior. :op
Now...
*hug*
:-)
there was a big campaign about 10-15 years ago in the porn industry [esp here in the UK] to get everyone involved tested on a regular basis for HIV/AIDS and there was for quite some time a regulation that films would not get released unless ALL male participants [i refuse to call them actors] used a condom in every scene.
Now,for some reason, things have changed over the last 5-10 years,mainly because using a condom in a film was seen as 'uncool' which just beggers disbelief at how stupid they are if that is true.i remember the interview last year of one porn star that was ORDERED by his director to perform gay sex on film without a condom in an orgy scene and contracted HIV through doing it [there was a big legal claim and it made the national tv news here in the UK].
for Yara [and any other woman for that matter]:
if you really want to freak a bloke out who gives the ol' "machismo" act just tell him [to his face] that porn really gets you 'in the mood'.as many of you know i have MANY female friends in the real world and they swear that by saying this the bloke jumps back into his shell quicker than Usain Bolt heading for an 'all-you-can-eat-buffet',as they cant handle the fact that porn gets the woman 'going' better than he does and inveribly the subject is dropped,never to be mentioned again.
there are always exceptions though,dont try this ploy with harem masters or they will call your bluff ;-][/QUOTE]
Hahaha. Thanks. You're fun, Joxer, and very kind. Now, I don't think I'm going to adopt this strategy because if the boy calls my bluff, I'm really...f***** :D
I wanna thank you all!, YourValentine, Cwazy (why Cwazy!?) Little Thing (it really, well, it was a very thoughtful and, I think, honest, answer, thank you, it helped a lot), Joxer, Mr. Mercury, Zebonka12, MusicMan, Bad Horsie (you're fun!) and, yes!!, Mr. Jingles and Poo Again - I was the one who wrote "Industry" there, and porn sells, of course, and what it sells is, well, controversial, so it's just natural that the debate wouldn't be confined to sexual behavior. :op
Now...
*hug*
:-)
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Bad Horsie wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I DON'T NEED PORN, SHRED SATISFIES ME SEXUALLY.
Cheers,
Hor[/QUOTE]
LMAO.
Cheers,
Hor[/QUOTE]
LMAO.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Bad Horsie wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I DON'T NEED PORN, SHRED SATISFIES ME SEXUALLY.
Cheers,
Hor[/QUOTE]
LMAO.[/QUOTE]Oh yeah, baby
;)
Cheers,
Hor
Cheers,
Hor[/QUOTE]
LMAO.[/QUOTE]Oh yeah, baby
;)
Cheers,
Hor
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME]So now I'm ignorant and brainwashed because unlike you I don't follow a totalitarian and fascist ideology that brings nothing but oppression to the population.
History has taught humanity that neither a totalitarian communist or capitalist ideology works for the benefit of the majority of people.
Why do you think that Soviet Union collapsed by itself? Check you history books. Name me one single country living under a communist regime where people are happy and they've have been given enough civil liberties for their own progress.
I'm not defending totalitarian capitalism at all. Despite the effort of right wing nut insiders on the US government, a totalitarian capitalist system in the US has never really existed. I agree that there are forces within the government willing to push it, but they haven't been allowed to do so. Still it poses a threat to the nation, and there are still many things that IMO need to be changed to stop corporate machines from gaining more power.
Personally I totally oppose a government that allows the wealthy to oppress the lower classes in any way the want, and to make their own rules.
I defend the right of individuals to start a business and make a profit while providing fair trade to consumers, paying fair wages to their workers and associates, and pay taxes to a government (that hopefully) will invest in social programs to provide the population with basic needs such as health and education, as well as providing tools to individuals to achieve progress.
Now, if you wish to live in a country where despite any efforts to work hard and study, you won't be able to raise your living standards, then go ahead. If you wish to live in a country where you will be persecuted and jailed for disagreeing with the government, then you're more than welcome to leave.
Once you move to Cuba, then let's see how much freedom you have to post a message on this board.[/QUOTE]
*sigh*
Somtimes I wonder if there's even a point in arguing with the most ignorant of fools.
As, I've explained in my previous posts, there will only be true and final communism when the oppressed peoples of the world unite in a global revolution. I've also previously explained the reason for the necessity of the proletarian dictatorship, and among other things the reason why proletarian dictatorships generally are poorer than Western capitalist systems.
I do not really care about your views. In the opinions of myself as well as Marx, you are either with us or against us in overthrowing the bourgeosie. There is no middle ground.
You may go back and read these posts anytime you like, as I don't wish to waste any more of my time typing to you what I've already explained.
However, should you contribute something new to this debate, I'll gladly reply.
History has taught humanity that neither a totalitarian communist or capitalist ideology works for the benefit of the majority of people.
Why do you think that Soviet Union collapsed by itself? Check you history books. Name me one single country living under a communist regime where people are happy and they've have been given enough civil liberties for their own progress.
I'm not defending totalitarian capitalism at all. Despite the effort of right wing nut insiders on the US government, a totalitarian capitalist system in the US has never really existed. I agree that there are forces within the government willing to push it, but they haven't been allowed to do so. Still it poses a threat to the nation, and there are still many things that IMO need to be changed to stop corporate machines from gaining more power.
Personally I totally oppose a government that allows the wealthy to oppress the lower classes in any way the want, and to make their own rules.
I defend the right of individuals to start a business and make a profit while providing fair trade to consumers, paying fair wages to their workers and associates, and pay taxes to a government (that hopefully) will invest in social programs to provide the population with basic needs such as health and education, as well as providing tools to individuals to achieve progress.
Now, if you wish to live in a country where despite any efforts to work hard and study, you won't be able to raise your living standards, then go ahead. If you wish to live in a country where you will be persecuted and jailed for disagreeing with the government, then you're more than welcome to leave.
Once you move to Cuba, then let's see how much freedom you have to post a message on this board.[/QUOTE]
*sigh*
Somtimes I wonder if there's even a point in arguing with the most ignorant of fools.
As, I've explained in my previous posts, there will only be true and final communism when the oppressed peoples of the world unite in a global revolution. I've also previously explained the reason for the necessity of the proletarian dictatorship, and among other things the reason why proletarian dictatorships generally are poorer than Western capitalist systems.
I do not really care about your views. In the opinions of myself as well as Marx, you are either with us or against us in overthrowing the bourgeosie. There is no middle ground.
You may go back and read these posts anytime you like, as I don't wish to waste any more of my time typing to you what I've already explained.
However, should you contribute something new to this debate, I'll gladly reply.
*Someone* is expressing severe ignorance in this thread, and it's not Mr. Jingles.
Maybe it's the person who is committed to an outdated doctrine, which most experts can and will agree is simply "wrong."
Maybe it's the person who is committed to an outdated doctrine, which most experts can and will agree is simply "wrong."