Hitler killed 6 million people, Stalin over 20 million. They' were both massive assholes and they both made awful crimes. It's not sane when someone says that one of those two had good intentions. [/QUOTE]
Stalin was a very bad guy, sure. But your statistics is wrong: Hitler killed 20 million Russian people, including Ukranian and Belarus. It`s much more that 6 million, where did you get it, I wonder? Maybe you mean people from other countries?
Sergei. · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]April wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
Hitler killed 6 million people, Stalin over 20 million. They' were both massive assholes and they both made awful crimes. It's not sane when someone says that one of those two had good intentions.
[/QUOTE]
Stalin was a very bad guy, sure. But your statistics is wrong: Hitler killed 20 million Russian people, including Ukranian and Belarus. It`s much more that 6 million, where did you get it, I wonder? Maybe you mean people from other countries?
[/QUOTE]
Ms. Rebel likely got six-million because it is widely believed to be approximately the amount of people who died in the Holocaust. This is actually incorrect since it's only the amount of Jews who were killed, excluding all the other groups who were persecuted. And I think that this number of Jews is somewhat close, but probably isn't very reliable since it came from a Schutzstaffel officer and not an official count taken.
While the number of people killed in the Holocaust was in reality I think somewhere around 12 or 13 million, I'm pretty sure it was nowhere near 20 million, let alone a 20 million made up only of Russians, Belarusians/Byelorussians and Ukrainians. I do know that the Soviet Union is said to have lost the most people out of any country during World War II, but wouldn't necessarily consider them to have been "killed by Hitler," that is, unless you're referring to the amount of people in general who were killed and not the Holocaust.
Let's not forget that Stalin still managed to be sending folks to the Gulag despite the war. :O
April · Member since
20 million people died because of the war only, and another 6m might have died for other reasons.
thomasquinn 32989 · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
Hitler killed 6 million people, Stalin over 20 million. They' were both massive assholes and they both made awful crimes. It's not sane when someone says that one of those two had good intentions. [/QUOTE]
This is exactly the black-and-white thinking that got us totalitarianism in the first place.
Bob The Shrek · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]April wrote: [/b]
20 million people died because of the war only, and another 6m might have died for other reasons.[/QUOTE]
52 million people died as a result of WW2
YourValentine · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]April wrote: [/b]
Stalin was a bad guy. But he did win the war over the nazis. If not for the Soviet victory, who gave up their lives in that war, about 20 million people died, nazis might have won it. Americans joined the war when they saw that the USSR was winning, at the very end of the war, and hurried to share the victory. But they did let nazis kill first. [/QUOTE]
Maybe you should read a history book. Read about the Hitler-Stalin pact that allowed Germany to invade Poland. Stalin fought the Nazis when they attacked the Soviet Union and not because he thought the world needed to be rid of the Nazis. The USA entered the war after Pearl Harbour - when their own people were attacked and not any earlier. France and England did not declare war when Hitler invaded the Czechoslovakia in clear violation of the Munich agreement - the list goes on and on. The millions of people who died in the war were often innocent helpless civilians - for example almost the complete population of Nagasaki and Hiroshima where 100 000s of helpless men, women and children people were wiped out in seconds - an achievement that Hitler and Stalin as model mass murderers could only dream of!
Imo it's totally useless to compare these body counts - who killed more people. In fact ideology is only the excuse for power hungry regimes - it's just the flag under which the brainwashed population is gathered. It does not make a difference under which name people are suppressed, deprived of their human rights and killed.
Ms. Rebel · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]Sergei. wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]April wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
Hitler killed 6 million people, Stalin over 20 million. They' were both massive assholes and they both made awful crimes. It's not sane when someone says that one of those two had good intentions.
[/QUOTE]
Stalin was a very bad guy, sure. But your statistics is wrong: Hitler killed 20 million Russian people, including Ukranian and Belarus. It`s much more that 6 million, where did you get it, I wonder? Maybe you mean people from other countries?
[/QUOTE]
Ms. Rebel likely got six-million because it is widely believed to be approximately the amount of people who died in the Holocaust. This is actually incorrect since it's only the amount of Jews who were killed, excluding all the other groups who were persecuted. And I think that this number of Jews is somewhat close, but probably isn't very reliable since it came from a Schutzstaffel officer and not an official count taken.
While the number of people killed in the Holocaust was in reality I think somewhere around 12 or 13 million, I'm pretty sure it was nowhere near 20 million, let alone a 20 million made up only of Russians, Belarusians/Byelorussians and Ukrainians. I do know that the Soviet Union is said to have lost the most people out of any country during World War II, but wouldn't necessarily consider them to have been "killed by Hitler," that is, unless you're referring to the amount of people in general who were killed and not the Holocaust.
Let's not forget that Stalin still managed to be sending folks to the Gulag despite the war. :O
[/QUOTE]
Please, if you haven't watched "Schindler's List", please watch it. It was made by a Jew. Hitler killed about 5,5 million Jews and 0,5 milion were gypsies, mentally ill people, homosexuals etc. I don't do body count of soldiers which were killed by the German troops in a fight against them, just as I don't count the number of people killed by the Russian soldiers. 6 million people killed by Hitler were not soldiers, they were innocent civilians and same goes for 20 million people killed by Stalin.
Here's some wiki info about Stalin's victims:
"Accordingly, if famine victims are included, a minimum of around 10 million deaths — 6 million minimum from famine and 4 million minimum from other causes — are attributable to the regime[82], with a number of recent historians suggesting a likely total of around 20 million, citing much higher victim totals from executions, gulags, deportations and other causes.[83] Adding 6–8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a total of between 15 and 17 million victims. Researcher Robert Conquest, meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million.[84] Others maintain that their earlier higher victim total estimates are correct"
Ms. Rebel · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
Hitler killed 6 million people, Stalin over 20 million. They' were both massive assholes and they both made awful crimes. It's not sane when someone says that one of those two had good intentions.
[/QUOTE]
This is exactly the black-and-white thinking that got us totalitarianism in the first place.
[/QUOTE]
This is exactly the brain-washed thinking that got us shitism of any kind in the first place.
Ms. Rebel · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]April wrote: [/b]
Stalin was a bad guy. But he did win the war over the nazis. If not for the Soviet victory, who gave up their lives in that war, about 20 million people died, nazis might have won it. Americans joined the war when they saw that the USSR was winning, at the very end of the war, and hurried to share the victory. But they did let nazis kill first.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should read a history book. Read about the Hitler-Stalin pact that allowed Germany to invade Poland. Stalin fought the Nazis when they attacked the Soviet Union and not because he thought the world needed to be rid of the Nazis. The USA entered the war after Pearl Harbour - when their own people were attacked and not any earlier. France and England did not declare war when Hitler invaded the Czechoslovakia in clear violation of the Munich agreement - the list goes on and on. The millions of people who died in the war were often innocent helpless civilians - for example almost the complete population of Nagasaki and Hiroshima where 100 000s of helpless men, women and children people were wiped out in seconds - an achievement that Hitler and Stalin as model mass murderers could only dream of!
Imo it's totally useless to compare these body counts - who killed more people. In fact ideology is only the excuse for power hungry regimes - it's just the flag under which the brainwashed population is gathered. It does not make a difference under which name people are suppressed, deprived of their human rights and killed. [/QUOTE]
Brilliant post.
The reason why I'm doing these body counts is to open some people's eyes who apparently see things in black and white so they come to some bizarre conclusion in which Hitler is the devil and Stalin just some bad guy who in general had good intentions but made a "couple" of mistakes.
thomasquinn 32989 · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]April wrote: [/b]
Stalin was a bad guy. But he did win the war over the nazis. If not for the Soviet victory, who gave up their lives in that war, about 20 million people died, nazis might have won it. Americans joined the war when they saw that the USSR was winning, at the very end of the war, and hurried to share the victory. But they did let nazis kill first.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should read a history book. Read about the Hitler-Stalin pact that allowed Germany to invade Poland.[/QUOTE]
This is true. Russia and Germany have historically been eager to annex as much of Poland as possible (which, it must be said, was originally a grand duchy, client to the Moscow regime
[QUOTE]Stalin fought the Nazis when they attacked the Soviet Union and not because he thought the world needed to be rid of the Nazis.[/QUOTE]
This is not true. Stalin was waiting for an opportune moment to fight the Nazis, whom he regarded as ultra-capitalists. However, his army, which at his ascent to Russian leadership was not loyal to him, and had an officer-class still largely Romanov-oriented despite Trotsky's earlier reforms, needed to be reformed (meaning the elimination of nearly all officers above the rank of Major) for him to be able to control it. Therefore, he spent time getting his army into a shape ready for war. Historians suppose that this was also the reason for the Molotov-Von Ribbentrop pact, which seems to have served to buy time, but, it turned out, not enough time: Hitler invaded before Stalin was ready, which explains the chaotic state of the Russian army during the original German offensive. Stalin hated the Nazis, but he was not stupid enough to attack them with an army he knew would lose.
[QUOTE]The USA entered the war after Pearl Harbour - when their own people were attacked and not any earlier. France and England did not declare war when Hitler invaded the Czechoslovakia in clear violation of the Munich agreement - the list goes on and on.[/QUOTE]
True. It might be worth mentioning the Lend-Lease agreement, which is regarded as an overt American act of war by most historians. Roosevelt wanted to enter the war, but Congress was in majority isolationist, and thus wouldn't allow him until the Pearl Harbour attacks (Japan's worst strategic mistake, ahead of Yamamoto's concentration of the fleet which led to the crippling of Japanese naval power as early as 1942).
[QUOTE] The millions of people who died in the war were often innocent helpless civilians - for example almost the complete population of Nagasaki and Hiroshima where 100 000s of helpless men, women and children people were wiped out in seconds - an achievement that Hitler and Stalin as model mass murderers could only dream of![/QUOTE]
Completely true. It has often been remarked that the allies were guilty of war crimes to almost the same extent as the axis. Truth is, in all wars, all sides commit war crimes.
[QUOTE]Imo it's totally useless to compare these body counts - who killed more people. In fact ideology is only the excuse for power hungry regimes - it's just the flag under which the brainwashed population is gathered. It does not make a difference under which name people are suppressed, deprived of their human rights and killed[/QUOTE]
Agreed, providing you also consider "democracy" and "liberalism" as ideologies wielded by nations as instruments of power. [/QUOTE]
thomasquinn 32989 · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
Hitler killed 6 million people, Stalin over 20 million. They' were both massive assholes and they both made awful crimes. It's not sane when someone says that one of those two had good intentions.
[/QUOTE]
This is exactly the black-and-white thinking that got us totalitarianism in the first place.
[/QUOTE]
This is exactly the brain-washed thinking that got us shitism of any kind in the first place.
[/QUOTE]
A useless response devoid of all content. Yes, Hitler was a huge criminal. Yes, Stalin was, too. But denying that either of them had at least *some* good intentions is silly and a-historical.
Poo, again · Member since
How can a communist have anything but good intentions?
Ms. Rebel · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
Hitler killed 6 million people, Stalin over 20 million. They' were both massive assholes and they both made awful crimes. It's not sane when someone says that one of those two had good intentions.
[/QUOTE]
This is exactly the black-and-white thinking that got us totalitarianism in the first place.
[/QUOTE]
This is exactly the brain-washed thinking that got us shitism of any kind in the first place.
[/QUOTE]
A useless response devoid of all content. Yes, Hitler was a huge criminal. Yes, Stalin was, too. But denying that either of them had at least *some* good intentions is silly and a-historical.
[/QUOTE]
Alrighty then, I will slaughter your whole family and record it with a camera. Then I'll sell my video for whole lot of money to some journalist so that he can broadcast it on TV. I will send money that I earned to some starving children in Africa. And then I'll send someone to tell you about me that, how even though I'm a bad girl, I also had some good intentions. Please, don't take this serious, I don't personally mean about your family, I'm just trying to picturise you your point of view.
Sergei. · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Sergei. wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]April wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
Hitler killed 6 million people, Stalin over 20 million. They' were both massive assholes and they both made awful crimes. It's not sane when someone says that one of those two had good intention
[/QUOTE]
Stalin was a very bad guy, sure. But your statistics is wrong: Hitler killed 20 million Russian people, including Ukranian and Belarus. It`s much more that 6 million, where did you get it, I wonder? Maybe you mean people from other countries?
[/QUOTE]
Ms. Rebel likely got six-million because it is widely believed to be approximately the amount of people who died in the Holocaust. This is actually incorrect since it's only the amount of Jews who were killed, excluding all the other groups who were persecuted. And I think that this number of Jews is somewhat close, but probably isn't very reliable since it came from a Schutzstaffel officer and not an official count taken.
While the number of people killed in the Holocaust was in reality I think somewhere around 12 or 13 million, I'm pretty sure it was nowhere near 20 million, let alone a 20 million made up only of Russians, Belarusians/Byelorussians and Ukrainians. I do know that the Soviet Union is said to have lost the most people out of any country during World War II, but wouldn't necessarily consider them to have been "killed by Hitler," that is, unless you're referring to the amount of people in general who were killed and not the Holocaust.
Let's not forget that Stalin still managed to be sending folks to the Gulag despite the war. :O
[/QUOTE]
Please, if you haven't watched "Schindler's List", please watch it. It was made by a Jew. Hitler killed about 5,5 million Jews and 0,5 milion were gypsies, mentally ill people, homosexuals etc. I don't do body count of soldiers which were killed by the German troops in a fight against them, just as I don't count the number of people killed by the Russian soldiers. 6 million people killed by Hitler were not soldiers, they were innocent civilians and same goes for 20 million people killed by Stalin.
Here's some wiki info about Stalin's victims:
"Accordingly, if famine victims are included, a minimum of around 10 million deaths — 6 million minimum from famine and 4 million minimum from other causes — are attributable to the regime[82], with a number of recent historians suggesting a likely total of around 20 million, citing much higher victim totals from executions, gulags, deportations and other causes.[83] Adding 6–8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a total of between 15 and 17 million victims. Researcher Robert Conquest, meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million.[84] Others maintain that their earlier higher victim total estimates are correct"
[/QUOTE]
I have seen Schindler's List. I was actually making that post somewhat in your defence, lulz. He/she asked where you had gotten the count of "6 million" from and I was saying that it's widely believed to be the amount of Jews who died.
thomasquinn 32989 · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/b]
Hitler killed 6 million people, Stalin over 20 million. They' were both massive assholes and they both made awful crimes. It's not sane when someone says that one of those two had good intentions.
[/QUOTE]
This is exactly the black-and-white thinking that got us totalitarianism in the first place.
[/QUOTE]
This is exactly the brain-washed thinking that got us shitism of any kind in the first place.
[/QUOTE]
A useless response devoid of all content. Yes, Hitler was a huge criminal. Yes, Stalin was, too. But denying that either of them had at least *some* good intentions is silly and a-historical.
[/QUOTE]
Alrighty then, I will slaughter your whole family and record it with a camera. Then I'll sell my video for whole lot of money to some journalist so that he can broadcast it on TV. I will send money that I earned to some starving children in Africa. And then I'll send someone to tell you about me that, how even though I'm a bad girl, I also had some good intentions. Please, don't take this serious, I don't personally mean about your family, I'm just trying to picturise you your point of view.[/QUOTE]
Intentions and acts are two entirely separate things. One can do sheer evil for good motives, and one can do good out of wicked motives. Hitler and Stalin did not spend their entire working-days devising plots to torture, kill, conquer and oppress. They believed that they were acting for the common good (at least they probably started out thinking that way), and they occasionally did something good. For instance, Hitler passed some of the first legislation for environmental preservation (and, ironically, gave Germany masses of roads and made the car available to the common man for the first time), and Stalin came a long way to women's emancipation, opening a large number of jobs to them that would be out of bounds to women in Europe and the US for a long time.
No one is all evil all of the time. Not even Dick Cheney. He's nice to small children every 28th of August from 12:30 to 14:15, if it's a leap-year.
