Hitler killed 6 million people, Stalin over 20 million. They' were both massive assholes and they both made awful crimes. It's not sane when someone says that one of those two had good intention
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Stalin was a very bad guy, sure. But your statistics is wrong: Hitler killed 20 million Russian people, including Ukranian and Belarus. It`s much more that 6 million, where did you get it, I wonder? Maybe you mean people from other countries?
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Ms. Rebel likely got six-million because it is widely believed to be approximately the amount of people who died in the Holocaust. This is actually incorrect since it's only the amount of Jews who were killed, excluding all the other groups who were persecuted. And I think that this number of Jews is somewhat close, but probably isn't very reliable since it came from a Schutzstaffel officer and not an official count taken.
While the number of people killed in the Holocaust was in reality I think somewhere around 12 or 13 million, I'm pretty sure it was nowhere near 20 million, let alone a 20 million made up only of Russians, Belarusians/Byelorussians and Ukrainians. I do know that the Soviet Union is said to have lost the most people out of any country during World War II, but wouldn't necessarily consider them to have been "killed by Hitler," that is, unless you're referring to the amount of people in general who were killed and not the Holocaust.
Let's not forget that Stalin still managed to be sending folks to the Gulag despite the war. :O
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Please, if you haven't watched "Schindler's List", please watch it. It was made by a Jew. Hitler killed about 5,5 million Jews and 0,5 milion were gypsies, mentally ill people, homosexuals etc. I don't do body count of soldiers which were killed by the German troops in a fight against them, just as I don't count the number of people killed by the Russian soldiers. 6 million people killed by Hitler were not soldiers, they were innocent civilians and same goes for 20 million people killed by Stalin.
Here's some wiki info about Stalin's victims:
"Accordingly, if famine victims are included, a minimum of around 10 million deaths — 6 million minimum from famine and 4 million minimum from other causes — are attributable to the regime[82], with a number of recent historians suggesting a likely total of around 20 million, citing much higher victim totals from executions, gulags, deportations and other causes.[83] Adding 6–8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a total of between 15 and 17 million victims. Researcher Robert Conquest, meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million.[84] Others maintain that their earlier higher victim total estimates are correct"
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I have seen Schindler's List. I was actually making that post somewhat in your defence, lulz. He/she asked where you had gotten the count of "6 million" from and I was saying that it's widely believed to be the amount of Jews who died.
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I know that you were, I appreciate that. He/she is wrong. xD
Legy · Member since
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[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]
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[b]April wrote: [/b]
Stalin was a bad guy. But he did win the war over the nazis. If not for the Soviet victory, who gave up their lives in that war, about 20 million people died, nazis might have won it. Americans joined the war when they saw that the USSR was winning, at the very end of the war, and hurried to share the victory. But they did let nazis kill first.
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Maybe you should read a history book. Read about the Hitler-Stalin pact that allowed Germany to invade Poland. Stalin fought the Nazis when they attacked the Soviet Union and not because he thought the world needed to be rid of the Nazis. The USA entered the war after Pearl Harbour - when their own people were attacked and not any earlier. France and England did not declare war when Hitler invaded the Czechoslovakia in clear violation of the Munich agreement - the list goes on and on. The millions of people who died in the war were often innocent helpless civilians - for example almost the complete population of Nagasaki and Hiroshima where 100 000s of helpless men, women and children people were wiped out in seconds - an achievement that Hitler and Stalin as model mass murderers could only dream of!
Imo it's totally useless to compare these body counts - who killed more people. In fact ideology is only the excuse for power hungry regimes - it's just the flag under which the brainwashed population is gathered. It does not make a difference under which name people are suppressed, deprived of their human rights and killed. [/QUOTE]
EXAAAACTLY!
About the US and WWII, FDR was very reluctant to enter the war. Japan and the US were involved in peace talks then Pearl Harbor happened. Pearl Harbor changed everything.
April · Member since
Certainly it wasn`t 20 million people that Stalin killed, maybe 6m. He was a bad guy, but not a single one of you knows what it was like to live in those times in the Soviet Union. And you can`t judge fairly. While my grandmothers and friends do know. It wasn`t all that bad, and he didn`t do only bad things. Surely he can`t be compared to Hitler, but to some other totalitarian-authoritarian dictator.
And how many indians and black slaves were slaughtered in Americas? 20 million? I think practically all in North America. According to your logic then those American presidents of the times can be called Hitlers.
Legy · Member since
20 million Blacks and Native Americans were slaughter by the white man in the US?
Okay...
Ms. Rebel · Member since
Ummm.... I think that I'm going to bed now.
Raf · Member since
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[b]April wrote: [/b]
Certainly it wasn`t 20 million people that Stalin killed, maybe 6m. He was a bad guy, but not a single one of you knows what it was like to live in those times in the Soviet Union. And you can`t judge fairly. While my grandmothers and friends do know. It wasn`t all that bad, and he didn`t do only bad things. Surely he can`t be compared to Hitler, but to some other totalitarian-authoritarian dictator. And how many indians and black slaves were slaughtered in Americas? 20 million? I think practically all in North America. According to your logic then those American presidents of the times can be called Hitlers. [/QUOTE]
Have you watched the documentary yet? The survivors from Stalin's mass murder events and the children of people who died over there don't seem to agree that living in the Soviet Union was a good thing. The pics of dead children looking like those poor starving Africans wouldn't work as pro-USSR arguments either. [/QUOTE]I do agree about the American genocide, though. "I think practically all in North America" - this bit is wrong. Spanish and Portuguese people killed several million natives, and besides that, we (Brazilian) people imported slaves from Africa until 1850 - then we stopped because England threatened us. But still, slaves kept having children, and slavery went on until 1889. I descend directly from Portuguese people and I know I'm living on a country that has been stolen by my people a few centuries ago - and so what? That doesn't make me evil, I was born here, those natives have been dead for centuries... And I acknowledge terrible things happened here.[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]What I wanted to point out when I started the thread is: In this particular case (the Soviet Union and all the genocides), the criminals are still alive. They are still alive - just like some poor victims who have survived those terrible times, they still have some power, there are people who support them, they haven't (and probably won't) be judged for what they've done, they're still spreading their ideas, they are trying to make it look like people who point out what they've done in the past are liars... And the worst thing: What if they do come back? As other people have pointed out on other threads here on Queenzone, the current scenario is more suitable for their comeback than the 90s and early 2000's were.
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YourValentine · Member since
I have not seen the documentary but the reason why these people were never charged and tried for their crimes is: the system change was peaceful, there was no war and no revolution to topple the regime. You can see this phenomenon in many other countries, for example Spain where King Juan Carlos was Franco's "heir" but introduced the democracy against all expectations. Or countries like Argentina and Chile where the protagonists of the old regime were not tried, either.
Of course the situation is very unsatisfactory for the victims of the old regime but it's very debatable if a civil war or a revolution would have been the better alternative. I really do not know enough about the complex political and social post-communist structure in the previous Soviet states to have a valid opinion but I think that the new government is simply not powerful enough to prosecute these people and probably not willing , either. As far as I remember Putin himself was the leader of the KGB in the old regime. When you look at the former Yugoslavia and look at the hatred, atrocities and mass killings that went along with the system change I think it's maybe better to let the murderers go unpunished than to have a civil war with perhaps 100 000s of innocent victims.This is probably a very academic position and sounds unsympathetic and very frustrating for the victims but I do not believe that there is a possibility to charge these people without risking a civil war and social unrest. I do not believe that you can turn the clock back and return to the Communist system but it's up to the global community to help the democratic forces in Russia and not fuel the fire by threatening them with new "missile shields" and other cold war rhethoric and activities.
April · Member since
Dear Your Valentine! What you have written is very true. You are a very wise person. Thank you for your ideas!
I would only want to point out that not everything in the USSR was as bad as your propaganda tries to impress on you. Many sides of life were really nice, like people helping each other, caring about each other, spending a lot of time together, enjoying equal right to work (no unemployment absolutely), to medical care (all free), to education (all free), very low prices (especially bread, meat, milk, cream and so on), the right to leasure and equal possibilities for people to go to the South and rest by the sea in sanatoriums which were very cheap and many other things. And feeling secure about tomorrow. Everything guaranteed. But...
Later the economy didn`t sustain that, the 5-year planning was all wrong, and ideology failed a lot. Heavy industry was prospering but light industry was stalled. The whole system collapsed. I wouldn`t like any kind of return, by no means. This was kind of an extreme well-fare state system. No fresh air. No freedom of thought, of expression.
Now it`s absolutely different in Russia. At first it was very hard for people to accept the new way of life, but younger generation embarked on it easily, they=we are the champions.
And Putin has never been any chief of the KGB, he was just a junior officer working in the GDR (German Democratic Republic) and then joined Sobchak, one of the new democratic leaders of the perestroika.
Stalin was bad, a tyrant, and really if we take the whole period after the revolution to his death, including the collectivization, the revival of the economy and resettlements of the whole ethnic groups then the number would be great. You are right. But all those people responsible for the tragedy are already dead. There`s noone to punish. The greatest culprits of the whole thing, however, were the revolutionaries-terrorists like Trotsky and his company, in the first place.
Sergei. · Member since
Slaves? How did slaves suddenly get mentioned?
If we want to discuss the atrocities committed by United States, look no further back than forty years -- Just Google Image search "Agent Orange."
YourValentine · Member since
@ April, you wrote:
"I would only want to point out that not everything in the USSR was as bad as your propaganda tries to impress on you. Many sides of life were really nice, like people helping each other, caring about each other, spending a lot of time together, enjoying equal right to work (no unemployment absolutely), to medical care (all free), to education (all free), very low prices (especially bread, meat, milk, cream and so on), the right to leasure and equal possibilities for people to go to the South and rest by the sea in sanatoriums which were very cheap and many other things."
Believe me, I am not impressed by cold war propaganda very easily :) But I have heard the same in Germany many times: "Under the nazis there was no unemployment and the women could go out at night without fearing to be raped, there was "Kraft durch Freude" , the Autobahn was built etc etc - not everything was all that bad." The regime was still a regime of ruthless killers even though many German people had a good life until the war returned to Germany. Jews, communists, socialists, any kind of opponents against the regime, even so called "worthless life", i.e. handicapped people were killed with no mercy.
There are always some good things in each society and it's useless to list them against other societies. Just now we witness what happens if capitalism runs wild with no social control and regulation. I still believe that democracy offers the best chances to ensure, freedom, security and the guarantee of the human rights for people but the system is far from perfect and must be continuously improved. I also believe that each individual person should always think for themselves and not follow "our flag". Politicians usually lie and cheat, are corrupt and do not have your well being in mind - no matter which system. It's the people who have to fight for their rights all the time, it's a never ending process.
April · Member since
Yes, Germany has suffered a lot at the hands of its leaders. It`s hard for German people to deal with their past, I guess. I hear the German government still has to pay money to Jewish families in Israel whose relatives were killed by the nazis.
Poo, again · Member since
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[b]April wrote: [/b]
Yes, Germany has suffered a lot at the hands of its leaders. It`s hard for German people to deal with their past, I guess. I hear the German government still has to pay money to Jewish families in Israel whose relatives were killed by the nazis.
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The German government = elected representatives of the people.
So, that means that the German people are still paying for atrocities commited before most of them were even born.
You'd expect the Anglo-Saxons/other prominent ethnic groups of the USA to pay African-Americans, Native Americans, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and so on...
