I'd love to weigh in on this but I'm still not entirely clear on what part of the recording is being debated on ...
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Listening to totally dry recordings of the Red Special's sound (no effects, no amps, no thing) you do get a feel for the peculiar sound it makes. A lot of Brian's 'sound' though had to do with the treble booster and clever mic positions.
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You can get a big, Queen sound using a different guitar, but there are certain voicings of that instrument that are unique enough that you won't get them on a common instrument like a Strat or a Les Paul. It really comes down to which 'sound' is being referred to, because Brian had a few .... I'd like to know exactly what part of The Hero is being discussed, specifically.
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It's not part of The Hero song, it's from the soundtrack and is actually a reprise of The Flash theme. It's the lines in the song "Just a man with a man's courage, nothing but a man who can never fail, no one but the pure at heart can find the holy grail" without the vocals and replaced by Brian's brilliant little solo.
ludwigs · Member since
Sebastian.......
Quite a reply!!! My comment/view/opinion was not directed totally at you at all. Your site and analysis is a fantastic result of many many years (I'm sure) of research etc etc. I sense a slight nerve tingle?
My point (possibly not best initially portrayed) is more the fact that, on forums, so often we are told this and that and most of the time the lesser prevalent members/lurkers choose to agree and maybe not post purely through, almost........ 'intimidation'.
NOW....I am not suggesting that you are intimidating in ANY way. (My mention was one of 'typical' forum experiences)
This place is quite nasty (often) and I just skim here now and again but what I read does make me want to not bother. I know a few old members that left purely for the utter (and un-called for) spite within. I don't contribute much at all so it doesn't matter much.
You can post as many messages as you like....it's the posters prerogative after all. I DO skim a lot of the messages as they are often trifle and don't hold any interest to me. Different strokes and all that.
I totally agree with Sir GH (and yourself) that a forum is a place for discussion and opinion......a lot of which we ALL disagree on and that is totally fine with me. After all, opinions are just that.....opinions. Differing views are totally fine and the way it should be. It creates interesting discussion.
What I do find interesting though is that memories do cloud AND a lot of the detective/analysis has to be down to experience, familiarity with the particular voice/instrument etc....etc.... I also agree that you don't have to be an astounding player to be able to suss out a tone, noise, effect, whatever.
In the past I have read some facts that I don't agree with but that's fine. Facts that you know for sure are, fact. Others that have no confirmed 'history' or proof can only be speculative? No? Experience is where it helps but it can not be 100% proof. I have heard Red Specials first hand. The Guytons, KZ,RS guitars , homemades etc many, many times in the flesh, thru all the proper amps boosters etc and the reality is very different to the captured mic sounds. I have a section/clip of an RS playing through a completely different amp and I would think most people would be totally convinced it was an AC30 with Cornish. It wasn't.......So, all we can really do is our best guess?
Do you maybe see MY view or, perhaps you don't/won't. That again is fine.
I am also not here to take pop-shots at individuals at all....and I am in no way 'holier than thou'!! If you feel I am attacking you then you are very much mistaken too! Please maybe understand my obviously (thick-as-shit- cause I don't post here a lot) observation was 'a bystanders opinion'?
Keep up your excellent work............
There are some great topics but the bad ones(and venom) outway the interest for me........
That's all folks. End of interaction. :)
Sebastian · Member since
It was my mistake then. I'd assumed it'd been directed to me because it followed one of my posts and because I've received loads of backlash during the last years. I rushed into a wrong conclusion, but I still keep by what I wrote, because it still works as reference.
And in any case, this has been one of the most interesting threads in months.
You do have a very interesting point which is the 'intimidation' factor. And I agree with you that, sadly, many times discussions and debates of an (I dare to say) academic nature (be them about rocket science, medicine, sociology or the use of certain amps by a rock guitarist) end up with a part 'owning' the truth, not via knowledge, demonstration or thoroughness, but via bullying.
That's something that's got to be taken into account whenever 'facts' see the light or are incorporated in 'common(ly accepted) knowledge'. I remember Greg (or somebody else) accusing John (or somebody else) of misleading, which indeed reflected a common problem of the way these debates are developed.
Yara · Member since
Hi, dear Queenzoers!
How are you doing?
[i]I have very little knowledge about it all, so it's just my very humble take on this. I'm just writting to foster the discussion and, hopefully, keep it going!!![/i]
If the red special had no input at all in Brian's playing, and if he managed to get the same sound from different kinds of guitar, it'd be hard for me to make sense of why he had the trouble to custom make an instrument and keep so attached to it over time, in the first place. So I'm going to assume it did have some input. Any thoughts about it?
But then, some aspects come to mind here. Here's my most humble opinion:
1) I don't see why the little solo couldn't have been done by Brian using another guitar. Again, I'm not a "red special specialist", but the tune is not so out of the league as to demand a specific instrument - I could think of someone getting this sound from another guitar. Not me through my acoustic guitar, though I did gave it a try (lol). ;-))
2) Any discussion about this should take into account, in my view, the fact that Brian used the Red Special for mainly two reasons:
a) Because he felt more comfortable playing with it, which doesn't mean he couldn't get the same sound out of other guitars if he wanted to and gave himself the time to do it.
b) Because, what's perhaps more important, the guitar became his trademark overtime and a trademark for his sound. Trademark here meaning also the commercial aspect of it all.
3) The way Flash Gordon was recorded should be better studied or researched - the way a guitar is recorded, the same goes for vocals (e.g, The work on Freddie's vocals in Under Pressure from the album Hot Space and on "Another Bites The Dust" from "The Game"), do have an enormous impact on the sound output.
I wish you all the very best!
Take care you all,
Yara.
Sebastian · Member since
The thing is that evidently there's a mistake in Brian's recollection, because [i]The Hero[/i] has no solo. So either he...:
- Was actually referring to that [i]Flash Reprise[/i] solo; or
- Was actually referring to the rhythm guitar; or
- Was actually referring to a different song, probably from the same era
Now, the fact he distincively remembers having the solo 'in his head and not on record' (or something like that) suggests that indeed he was talking about 'a' (as opposed to 'the') solo, because by that stage rhythm guitar must have been taken care of. Unless of course the whole 'guitar was in Munich so (he) had to use a studio one' had happened during the rhythm bit and his memory tricked him (which can easily happen after almost 29 years).
IMO, the final conclusion is that we need further evidence than his comment, because it's still very ambiguous. That, of course, splits the research in two main aspects:
- Could Brian emulate the sound of the Red Special + Vox Ac30 using different equipment?
- Would Brian emulate the sound of the Red Special + Vox Ac30 using different equipment?
While I do agree that most of May's sound came from his hands, and that the treble booster had a huge impact on it as well, of course his guitar and amp were not irrelevant, he had a reason for using them and sticking with them. Ever wondered why he eventually had both guitars of his dreams (Strat and Les Paul, coincidentally two of the most versatile instruments available) but wasn't satisfied with them? Ever wondered why he even paid a separate plane ticket to his Old Lady? Ever wondered why he was so keen in commisioning replicas as back-ups?
So, at the end of the day, if (and only if) it's up to me to comment on which part [b]I[/b] think was not recorded with the Red Special, I'm positive it's much, much, much more possible that it's [i]The Hero[/i] rhythm and not [i]Flash's Theme (nth Reprise)[/i], considering:
- It does sound different (yet, to be honest, I'd never had noticed until this topic arised, which indeed compromises the credibility of this conclusion).
- [i]The Hero[/i] was done at a different studio than all the other songs from the OST, which confirms the whole 'guitar wasn't there' thing. [i]Flash[/i] reprises, however, were probably done already.
While I agree a sound close to the Red Special could be obtained from different gear, I don't see why we should [i]assume[/i] that the solo in question was one of those cases, based on a 29-year-old comment which already has one mistake, and could easily have another.
Yara · Member since
[b]Sebastian wrote: [/b]
- Could Brian emulate the sound of the Red Special + Vox Ac30 using different equipment?
[b]Sure. Provided we're only talking about that little solo from Flash Reprise. [/b]
- Would Brian emulate the sound of the Red Special + Vox Ac30 using different equipment?
[b]Hardly. He didn't have many reasons not to use the Red Special. As I pointed above:
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[b]a) He felt more comfortable playing it than any other guitar;
b) The guitar had become his trademark as a guitarist and the trademark of his sound, not only in the musical sense, but over time in a commercial sense too. The image of the guitarist playing with a custom made special guitar obviously did create the sort of mistique around him which was very appealing to people. Pretty much like Freddie's gestures and behavior on stage: even if some day he didn't felt like playing that character, he had to, because it was part of what made the band appealing to the audience. Same goes for "Brian and his Old Lady": it also, though not only, worked as a commercial device to keep the fans interested and appeal to the audience in general. [/b]
While I do agree that most of May's sound came from his hands,
[b]Well, a good part of it. I wouldn't say "most" because, if he didn't use the red special, he'd go for another very good instrument - it's not as if he could get that sound from any crappy guitar. Same goes for piano players: one might be accostumed to a Steinway, but if he has to, he may resort to a Bösendorfer - which doesn't mean he can get the sound he wants from an average piano. [/b]
and that the treble booster had a huge impact on it as well
[b]Not only the treble booster. There are many aspects to a guitar and its accessories which make it a bit easier for a performer to get a certain sound.[/b]
of course his guitar and amp were not irrelevant, he had a reason for using them and sticking with them.
[b]As above. [/b]
So, at the end of the day, if (and only if) it's up to me to comment on which part [b]I[/b] think was not recorded with the Red Special, I'm positive it's much, much, much more possible that it's [i]The Hero[/i] rhythm and not [i]Flash's Theme (nth Reprise)[/i], considering:
- It does sound different (yet, to be honest, I'd never had noticed until this topic arised, which indeed compromises the credibility of this conclusion).
[b]Indeed. Not the end of the world, though. ;-)) [/b]
- [i]The Hero[/i] was done at a different studio than all the other songs from the OST, which confirms the whole 'guitar wasn't there' thing. [i]Flash[/i] reprises, however, were probably done already.
[b]Probably. [/b]
While I agree a sound close to the Red Special could be obtained from different gear, I don't see why we should [i]assume[/i] that the solo in question was one of those cases, based on a 29-year-old comment which already has one mistake, and could easily have another.
[b]For sure. In fact, I can't see why we're even talking about that solo, since The Hero has no solo. Maybe I haven't followed the discussion very closely. ;-))))
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[b]Best Regards you all, and sorry to be writting inside the box - I can't split the message in different quotes! Hahaha. Message in a box instead of in a bottle.
Take care you all! Have a good sunday, guys! Enjoy the sound and the silence of it. ;-))
Yara
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Holly2003 · Member since
Brian states that they "threw together a long new piece called "The Hero", which included a reprise of "Flash" ... using some of the old take". It think it's fairly clear therefore that he's talking about the solo that follows The Hero on the album soundtrack, as I've identified a little earlier in the thread.
Sebastian · Member since
You're right. I was making a storm in a teacup then... anybody knows which could've been the equipment?
Yara · Member since
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[b]Holly2003 wrote: [/b]
Brian states that they "threw together a long new piece called "The Hero", which included a reprise of "Flash" ... using some of the old take". It think it's fairly clear therefore that he's talking about the solo that follows The Hero on the album soundtrack, as I've identified a little earlier in the thread.[/QUOTE]
Hi, Holly2003!
Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of this statement by Brian. So I guess you figured out a big part of it. That's wonderful. He's indeed refering to that little solo - and well, I don't see why he couldn't play it with another very good instrument. It's not so out of the league. But then again, I'd have to know much more about the way it was recorded and mixed too. This is crucial and, unfortunately, it seems there's not much info on this.
Cheers Holly2003! I enjoy your posts a lot. Thanks for staying around and joining the discussions with your great posts.
