How much anti-muslim / anti-immigrant sentiment is there where you live?

you would like that wouldn't you??
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]but your secret is out my friend......[/QUOTE]

[b][i]Treasure Moment wrote:
Not really, i know what the word means, i just used it to say that i dont believe in their gods, im an atheist when it comes to their gods.

[/i][/b]Hi, Treasure Moment! (funny to call you this way. :op)

How are you doing?

Sorry for quoting you this way - it was too complicated for me to quote this sentence without bringing along all the other posts!

You raise a very interesting point. I don't know whether you're aware of this, but this is exactly prominent biologist Richard Dawkins argument to demonstrate that, to some extent, almost all orthodox religious people are also atheists - not agnostic, but full-time atheists. The argument is interesting and it's exactly this one you posted: a religious person is always an atheist with regard to the gods of other religions, that is to say, this person is [b]certain[/b] that the other divine beings which don't belong to his/her religion [b]don't exist[/b] - they are fake, their "history" has been forged, so on and so forth.
 
So Dawkins raises the question: why do you people [i]jointly[/i] - muslims, jews, christians - attack me for being an atheist and not believing in a God when you yourselves are also atheists with regard to the gods of other religions? Religious Jews don't believe is either god or the messiah; Christians for sure don't believe in Allah; none of them believe in Zeus.

I thought it marginally clever as a way to argue with people who attacked him for being an atheist - "how can you be an atheist..." - and he'd answer: Well, exactly the same you guys are. ;-))))

-----

I also wanted to congratulate you on the comment about the IQ tests. It's very sad what's done to people, and to their self-esteem, based on the culture of idolizing this test - I have already seen people's lives almost ruined because of this. So it was sensitive of you to point this out.

----

Anyway, although we disagree a lot - I'm on the very religious side :op -, I found your posts very interesting and it was nice to hear from you.

I hope you're okay and doing fine.

Cheers and best regards,

Yara

Believe me Yara, TM does not understand one bit of the subtlety of your argument (or Dawkins', who, I might add, is a fundamentalist in his own right). His reasoning on the subject is something like this:

- I do not like what the church says*
- The church believes in god
- God doesn't exist

- Psychoactive substances will get you into contact with this non-existent God anyway






* 'the church' being every religious institution of any denomination, and he doesn't like it because he's seen a few YouTube videos telling him that the church is lying. About what, he's not so sure.

[QUOTE]

 



 



 



[b]Yara wrote: [/b]



 



[b][i]Treasure Moment wrote:
Not really, i know what the word means, i just used it to say that i dont believe in their gods, im an atheist when it comes to their gods.

[/i][/b]Hi, Treasure Moment! (funny to call you this way. :op)

How are you doing?

Sorry for quoting you this way - it was too complicated for me to quote this sentence without bringing along all the other posts!

You raise a very interesting point. I don't know whether you're aware of this, but this is exactly prominent biologist Richard Dawkins argument to demonstrate that, to some extent, almost all orthodox religious people are also atheists - not agnostic, but full-time atheists. The argument is interesting and it's exactly this one you posted: a religious person is always an atheist with regard to the gods of other religions, that is to say, this person is [b]certain[/b] that the other divine beings which don't belong to his/her religion [b]don't exist[/b] - they are fake, their "history" has been forged, so on and so forth.
 
So Dawkins raises the question: why do you people [i]jointly[/i] - muslims, jews, christians - attack me for being an atheist and not believing in a God when you yourselves are also atheists with regard to the gods of other religions? Religious Jews don't believe is either god or the messiah; Christians for sure don't believe in Allah; none of them believe in Zeus.

I thought it marginally clever as a way to argue with people who attacked him for being an atheist - "how can you be an atheist..." - and he'd answer: Well, exactly the same you guys are. ;-))))

-----

I also wanted to congratulate you on the comment about the IQ tests. It's very sad what's done to people, and to their self-esteem, based on the culture of idolizing this test - I have already seen people's lives almost ruined because of this. So it was sensitive of you to point this out.

----

Anyway, although we disagree a lot - I'm on the very religious side :op -, I found your posts very interesting and it was nice to hear from you.

I hope you're okay and doing fine.

Cheers and best regards,

Yara



 

[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your reply Yara, you seem to be an intelligent person contrary to many people here. I know about dawkins and you are correct, people of different religions see their god as the real one and are atheists against all other gods and as dawkins says many of those people are raised up as christians, muslims etc just because their parents are that or its the dominant religion of that area, i call those people sheep.

What i dont like about dawkins is that he says there can be no god, there is no way he can know that and although i dont believe in any man made "holy books" and organized religion i do believe there are things much higher than us that we have no clue about.

About the iq test, thats not a way to tell if someone is smart or not, its just about 1 form of intelligence, solving puzzles for the most part as i remember that test. There are other forms of intelligence and just cause someone is not good at this particular test doesnt mean they are dumb, they can be better at something else which the person who gets a top score on iq test isnt.

take care

[QUOTE]

[b]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/b]

Believe me Yara, TM does not understand one bit of the subtlety of your argument (or Dawkins', who, I might add, is a fundamentalist in his own right). His reasoning on the subject is something like this:

- I do not like what the church says*
- The church believes in god
- God doesn't exist

- Psychoactive substances will get you into contact with this non-existent God anyway






* 'the church' being every religious institution of any denomination, and he doesn't like it because he's seen a few YouTube videos telling him that the church is lying. About what, he's not so sure.
[/QUOTE]


No, my reasoning is that the organized religions are man made and are lies, the books are written by MAN and its used to manipulate and separate people and control them, simple as that and the sheep buy into it.

[QUOTE]

 



 



 



 



 



 



 



[b]Treasure Moment wrote: [/b]



 



 



 



Thanks for your reply Yara, you seem to be an intelligent person contrary to many people here. I know about dawkins and you are correct, people of different religions see their god as the real one and are atheists against all other gods and as dawkins says many of those people are raised up as christians, muslims etc just because their parents are that or its the dominant religion of that area, i like those people sheep.

What i dont like abour dawkins is that he says there can be no god, there is no way he can know that and although i dont believe in any man made "holy books" and organized religion i do believe there are things much higher than us that we have no clue about.

About the iq test, thats not a way to tell if someone is smart or not, its just about 1 form of intelligence, solving puzzles for the most part as i remember that test. There are other forms of intelligence and just cause someone is not good at this particular test doesnt mean they are dumb, they can be better at something else which the person who gets a top score on iq test isnt.

take care






 



 



 

[/QUOTE]



But... aren't all Gods manmade to an extent? How can you possibly term what's a manmade God and what isn't? Just because you've decided what you think God is doesn't necessarily make it true. You've moulded a God in your head, making it just as man made as any other God. I myself would class myself as agnostic, maybe even athiest, but I would never ever criticise someone else for believing in what they believe in. Seriously, if they have the faith to believe in something that they cannot be proven, then well done them! I wish I had their faith, but  I don't.

And I agree with you about the IQ thing. I have a high IQ, but it means nothing more than the fact that I am good at answering the questions they ask in an IQ test. I can answer IQ style questions, therefore I have a high IQ. Hurrah? If my IQ is a measure of intelligence, then I am in the top 10% in England. I somehow think not. In fact, I really hope not because I really am quite stupid.  It is therefore bollocks.

[QUOTE]

[b]Freya is quietly judging you. wrote: [/b]

[QUOTE]

 



 



 



[b]Treasure Moment wrote: [/b]



 



Thanks for your reply Yara, you seem to be an intelligent person contrary to many people here. I know about dawkins and you are correct, people of different religions see their god as the real one and are atheists against all other gods and as dawkins says many of those people are raised up as christians, muslims etc just because their parents are that or its the dominant religion of that area, i like those people sheep.

What i dont like abour dawkins is that he says there can be no god, there is no way he can know that and although i dont believe in any man made "holy books" and organized religion i do believe there are things much higher than us that we have no clue about.

About the iq test, thats not a way to tell if someone is smart or not, its just about 1 form of intelligence, solving puzzles for the most part as i remember that test. There are other forms of intelligence and just cause someone is not good at this particular test doesnt mean they are dumb, they can be better at something else which the person who gets a top score on iq test isnt.

take care







 

[/QUOTE]



But... aren't all Gods manmade to an extent? How can you possibly term what's a manmade God and what isn't? Just because you've decided what you think God is doesn't necessarily make it true. You've moulded a God in your head, making it just as man made as any other God. I myself would class myself as agnostic, maybe even athiest, but I would never ever criticise someone else for believing in what they believe in. Seriously, if they have the faith to believe in something that they cannot be proven, then well done them! I wish I had their faith, but  I don't.

And I agree with you about the IQ thing. I have a high IQ, but it means nothing more than the fact that I am good at answering the questions they ask in an IQ test. I can answer IQ style questions, therefore I have a high IQ. Hurrah? If my IQ is anything to go by I am in the top 10% in the country. I somehow think not. It's mostly bollocks.


[/QUOTE]



The difference between what i believe and what they believe is that i just believe something higher than us exists but i dont believe in "holy books, rules" or "sins" etc that that god has communicated with people and given guidance to them, thats the difference.

Fair point. But perhaps some people need more guidance than others. Some people feel safe in the knowledge that there is a heaven where good people go for eternity and that there is a God looking out for them and answering their prayers and all that jazz, I don't think that makes them stupid. Because at the end of the day, with most of them, all they are trying to be is good people. Yes, I'm sure most of the bible is made up and there is some utter utter bollocks in it, and it's all about scaring people into being "good people" so they don't go to scary old hell, but at it's core it's not meant to be a fear mongering book, it was meant to teach good, and you certainly don't have have to be stupid to follow it.

Obviously there are religious extremists and idiots who take every word of their holy book seriously, those people are stupid, but your average religion following person isn't like that. Yes, you could argue that they need their eyes opened, but why? They're happy, and they're not hurting anyone.

[QUOTE]

[b]Freya is quietly judging you. wrote: [/b]

Fair point. But perhaps some people need more guidance than others. Some people feel safe in the knowledge that there is a heaven where good people go for eternity and that there is a God looking out for them and answering their prayers and all that jazz, I don't think that makes them stupid. Because at the end of the day, with most of them, all they are trying to be is good people. Yes, I'm sure most of the bible is made up and there is some utter utter bollocks in it, and it's all about scaring people into being "good people" so they don't go to scary old hell, but at it's core it's not meant to be a fear mongering book, it was meant to teach good, and you certainly don't have have to be stupid to follow it.

Obviously there are religious extremists and idiots who take every word of their holy book seriously, those people are stupid, but your average religion following person isn't like that. Yes, you could argue that they need their eyes opened, but why? They're happy, and they're not hurting anyone.[/QUOTE]
I know it gives them hope and thats "good" but what it really is is false hope as its man made lies, people just dont want to face the truth.

Religion separates, traps, starts wars, controls people so it has a lot more negatives than good sides to it.

you just have a chip on the shoulder because "religion" is what stopped your justice of the peace from marrying you and your Milidrag .......   i know, i was there.

[QUOTE]

[b]Treasure Moment wrote: [/b]

[QUOTE]





[b]Freya is quietly judging you. wrote: [/b]



Fair point. But perhaps some people need more guidance than others. Some people feel safe in the knowledge that there is a heaven where good people go for eternity and that there is a God looking out for them and answering their prayers and all that jazz, I don't think that makes them stupid. Because at the end of the day, with most of them, all they are trying to be is good people. Yes, I'm sure most of the bible is made up and there is some utter utter bollocks in it, and it's all about scaring people into being "good people" so they don't go to scary old hell, but at it's core it's not meant to be a fear mongering book, it was meant to teach good, and you certainly don't have have to be stupid to follow it.

Obviously there are religious extremists and idiots who take every word of their holy book seriously, those people are stupid, but your average religion following person isn't like that. Yes, you could argue that they need their eyes opened, but why? They're happy, and they're not hurting anyone.

[/QUOTE]
I know it gives them hope and thats "good" but what it really is is false hope as its man made lies, people just dont want to face the truth.

Religion separates, traps, starts wars, controls people so it has a lot more negatives than good sides to it.

[/QUOTE]
The point is that it is not religious BOOKS that are to blame, but religious LEADERS. The Old Testament, for instance, is a highly interesting philosophical book, and very intelligent at that (it is so intricately constructed that the individual [tripartite] meaning of every single *letter* is important. Which is also the reason that it is impossible to read it well in anything other than the original Hebrew)....so long as you do not consider it infallible or the Word of God. But you dismiss it as "stupid", probably without having read any of it.

Incidentally, returning to the "all religions are to a degree atheists" argument: it's not true. Neither Judaism, nor Christianity nor Islam say that their God (which is the same one, as they too recognize) is the ONLY God. They only say that he is the TRUE God (i.e. all others are lesser gods).

I agree with Treasure Moment in as much as I dont believe in God but I think there are higher forms of life than him. Cattle, sheep, frogs, cheese and concrete to name but a few.

fatty.

[QUOTE]

[b]-fatty- wrote: [/b]

Cattle, sheep, frogs, cheese and concrete to name but a few.

 [/QUOTE]



Add some Irn Bru and that's a typical Scottish restaurant menu.

[QUOTE]

[b]andreas_mercury wrote: [/b]

you just have a chip on the shoulder because "religion" is what stopped your justice of the peace from marrying you and your Milidrag .......   i know, i was there.[/QUOTE]

i was getting bored with this topic but i have to ask now..
what is a Milidrag?
is it a cross dressing British member of parliament?
or the transvestite cousin of the bloke who sang 'the joker' and 'abracadabra'?



i darent look on the interweb just in case i end up on Jakes ex's blog page or somewhere nearly as vile..

[QUOTE]

[b]Holly2003 wrote: [/b]

[QUOTE]

 



[b]-fatty- wrote: [/b]



Cattle, sheep, frogs, cheese and concrete to name but a few.

 

[/QUOTE]



Add some Irn Bru and that's a typical Scottish restaurant menu.


[/QUOTE]
didnt i see on the news that they want irn bru banned?