Honeymoon's over?

I dunno, does a [url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090913/ap_on_re_us/us_taxpayer_rally;_ylt=AsldGNFOR6SbhReLQom.mUZvzwcF;_ylu=X3oDMTJlNzUzZGtwBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkwOTEzL3VzX3RheHBheWVyX3JhbGx5BHBvcwM0BHNlYwN5bl9tb3N0X3BvcHVsYXIEc2xrA3Rob3VzYW5kc29mZA--]protest[/url] count as much if it's been thrown by a third party?
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]I always liked the more spontaneous ones.  [/QUOTE]

Yes, it's funny how people take to the streets because they do not want to pay for the health care of their nation's children but do not mind paying billions for two useless wars.

Yeah I've never really understood that mindset.  I know that one's world view is supposed to change once they earn money for themselves, but I've done that now and honestly I don't think any differently.

[QUOTE]

[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]

Yes, it's funny how people take to the streets because they do not want to pay for the health care of their nation's children but do not mind paying billions for two useless wars. [/QUOTE]
couldnt of said it better myself

[QUOTE]

[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]

Yes, it's funny how people take to the streets because they do not want to pay for the health care of their nation's children but do not mind paying billions for two useless wars. [/QUOTE]



Here, here!!!

[QUOTE]

[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]

Yes, it's funny how people take to the streets because they do not want to pay for the health care of their nation's children but do not mind paying billions for two useless wars. [/QUOTE]

It's not about that at all. These people aren't even thinking about the people who might seriously benefit from this. Instead, the numbnuts protesting are doing so for several other (pathetic) reasons -

They have been brainwashed to believe the plan:
1. is the first to force taxpayers to cover abortions.
2. includes "death panels" who will euthanize the elderly and infirmed.
3. brings the US one step closer to socialism.
4. will cover, and thereby reward, illegal immigrants and their families.

and perhaps the biggest reason of all for these people to protest the plan:
5. it's been drawn and presented by a (BLACK!) Democrat.

[url=http://www.insurekidsnow.gov/]http://www.insurekidsnow.gov/[/url]

"Health Coverage Plans


 



A new bill signed into law by President Obama makes millions of children eligible to receive health insurance.



 



If your kids do not have health insurance, they are likely to be eligible, even if you are working and even if you have applied in the past and been turned down.



 



Your state (and every state) has its own program, with its own eligibility rules, but in many states, uninsured children 18 years old and younger, whose families earn up to $44,500 a year (for a family of four) are eligible for free or low-cost health insurance that pays for



 



Doctor visits, Dental care, Prescription medicines, Hospitalizations and much more."

I heard of one incident at one of those town hall meetings on health care where a person bit off the tip of another person's finger.  The injured person then went to the hospital, received care, and Medicare paid for it.  Ha.

Oh, well.  Maybe not so funny.

But I don't understand the huge upset crowds and protests.  The Democrats' plan of adding a public option and regulating the insurance companies sounds good to me.  If at the very least they got a bill through that would regulate insurance companies, that would be a huge improvement.

When I first got wind of Bush's intent to invade Iraq I couldn't believe it. And the Walk-in-the-Park speech he gave was just ridiculous. I was then corresponding with an Arabist diplomat named Antony Sullivan, whom I had met by virtue of being a camel owner (long story) and he was devastated, not only because he had many connections in the Middle East but because he knew full well about what course the whole thing would take. I and many others wrote letters to Bush and our government representatives, but it was like spitting into the wind, as although there was some voting and bullshit that went on it was obvious that Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz (the four horsemen of the apocolypse) had already made up their minds and anything else was a formality. Peace demonstrations that occurred were useless.

Obama won because people were so fed-up with the Bush-Cheney conservative crowd that anyone of a more sane viewpoint would have likely won. And he is a very good speaker, and unruffled under stress, so those and other factors made him very popular. But I've never before seen the bitterness that exists between the polarized Left and Right that there is now. A lot of it is stirred up by the loud and unaccountable conservative talk show hosts like that bag of wind and shit, Rush Limbaugh, but he is not the only one. They have hijacked the Republican party to be something far more to the right than before and call anyone who would compromise a RINO - Republican in name only. RINOs are those like John McCain and Colin Powell. I call them reasonable people, though McCain moved far to the right of his usual positions when he ran for president, especially when he picked that loon, Palin for VP.

Anyway, now the followers of Limbaugh and other far right wingers are stirring up anything they can to break Obama's presidency and get themselves back into power, so it is very hard to determine just who is really upset over the health care stuff and who is doing it due to ulterior motives. I've just washed my hands of it all as it seems so futile to get involved. One of my husband's cousins and I sometimes correspond by email, but I'm liberal and he is one of these far-right conservatives, and it is all that we can do to be civil about politics in spite of the fact that we like each other. It's horrible. He has the second amendment "Right to bear arms....." professionally painted onto the back of his truck, and I am in favor of gay rights, and never the twain shall meet!  :o)

Anyway, this has poisoned the atmosphere to get anything done.

[QUOTE]

[b]cacatua wrote: [/b]

When I first got wind of Bush's intent to invade Iraq I couldn't believe it. And the Walk-in-the-Park speech he gave was just ridiculous. I was then corresponding with an Arabist diplomat named Antony Sullivan, whom I had met by virtue of being a camel owner (long story) and he was devastated, not only because he had many connections in the Middle East but because he knew full well about what course the whole thing would take. I and many others wrote letters to Bush and our government representatives, but it was like spitting into the wind, as although there was some voting and bullshit that went on it was obvious that Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz (the four horsemen of the apocolypse) had already made up their minds and anything else was a formality. Peace demonstrations that occurred were useless.

Obama won because people were so fed-up with the Bush-Cheney conservative crowd that anyone of a more sane viewpoint would have likely won. And he is a very good speaker, and unruffled under stress, so those and other factors made him very popular. But I've never before seen the bitterness that exists between the polarized Left and Right that there is now. A lot of it is stirred up by the loud and unaccountable conservative talk show hosts like that bag of wind and shit, Rush Limbaugh, but he is not the only one. They have hijacked the Republican party to be something far more to the right than before and call anyone who would compromise a RINO - Republican in name only. RINOs are those like John McCain and Colin Powell. I call them reasonable people, though McCain moved far to the right of his usual positions when he ran for president, especially when he picked that loon, Palin for VP.

Anyway, now the followers of Limbaugh and other far right wingers are stirring up anything they can to break Obama's presidency and get themselves back into power, so it is very hard to determine just who is really upset over the health care stuff and who is doing it due to ulterior motives. I've just washed my hands of it all as it seems so futile to get involved. One of my husband's cousins and I sometimes correspond by email, but I'm liberal and he is one of these far-right conservatives, and it is all that we can do to be civil about politics in spite of the fact that we like each other. It's horrible. He has the second amendment "Right to bear arms....." professionally painted onto the back of his truck, and I am in favor of gay rights, and never the twain shall meet!  :o)

Anyway, this has poisoned the atmosphere to get anything done.[/QUOTE]
I have been to the U.S quite often lately, much to my delight. I like your country, what can I do? ; -) Last time I was over there I felt that many people had legitimate reasons for taking exception to Obama and the Democrats. To be honest, he hasn't been, ever since the elections by the way, very clear about this and other issues. I read the papers, I like talking to people, and even so I was hard-pressed to find out where he actually stood on many issues. The contrast between what he promised in his campaign and what he's actually doing, and failing to do, does seem to upset people. What he was advocating in public back in July sounded nothing like the bill that Nancy Pelosy was announcing in Congress - his proposal was far more to the right, in fact, which made even some of his staunch supporters a bit angry. He promised a world of changes and hinted at numerous ruptures, and it's gradually dawning on people that there has been reluctancy in passing even gradual and small reforms. 

Don't you think the lack of clarity in public discourse in general also helps fostering the kind of nonsensical opposition to any proposed health-care reform bill that magicalfreddie and you have pointed out? In fact, how many different bills dealing with the issue have been discussed lately in Congress? I was told that the most recent one put forth by the Democrats has more than 1000 pages!

[QUOTE]

[b]Yara wrote: [/b]

[QUOTE]

 



[b]cacatua wrote: [/b]



When I first got wind of Bush's intent to invade Iraq I couldn't believe it. And the Walk-in-the-Park speech he gave was just ridiculous. I was then corresponding with an Arabist diplomat named Antony Sullivan, whom I had met by virtue of being a camel owner (long story) and he was devastated, not only because he had many connections in the Middle East but because he knew full well about what course the whole thing would take. I and many others wrote letters to Bush and our government representatives, but it was like spitting into the wind, as although there was some voting and bullshit that went on it was obvious that Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz (the four horsemen of the apocolypse) had already made up their minds and anything else was a formality. Peace demonstrations that occurred were useless.

Obama won because people were so fed-up with the Bush-Cheney conservative crowd that anyone of a more sane viewpoint would have likely won. And he is a very good speaker, and unruffled under stress, so those and other factors made him very popular. But I've never before seen the bitterness that exists between the polarized Left and Right that there is now. A lot of it is stirred up by the loud and unaccountable conservative talk show hosts like that bag of wind and shit, Rush Limbaugh, but he is not the only one. They have hijacked the Republican party to be something far more to the right than before and call anyone who would compromise a RINO - Republican in name only. RINOs are those like John McCain and Colin Powell. I call them reasonable people, though McCain moved far to the right of his usual positions when he ran for president, especially when he picked that loon, Palin for VP.

Anyway, now the followers of Limbaugh and other far right wingers are stirring up anything they can to break Obama's presidency and get themselves back into power, so it is very hard to determine just who is really upset over the health care stuff and who is doing it due to ulterior motives. I've just washed my hands of it all as it seems so futile to get involved. One of my husband's cousins and I sometimes correspond by email, but I'm liberal and he is one of these far-right conservatives, and it is all that we can do to be civil about politics in spite of the fact that we like each other. It's horrible. He has the second amendment "Right to bear arms....." professionally painted onto the back of his truck, and I am in favor of gay rights, and never the twain shall meet!  :o)

Anyway, this has poisoned the atmosphere to get anything done.

[/QUOTE]
I have been to the U.S quite often lately, much to my delight. I like your country, what can I do? ; -) Last time I was over there I felt that many people had legitimate reasons for taking exception to Obama and the Democrats. To be honest, he hasn't been, ever since the elections by the way, very clear about this and other issues. I read the papers, I like talking to people, and even so I was hard-pressed to find out where he actually stood on many issues. The contrast between what he promised in his campaign and what he's actually doing, and failing to do, does seem to upset people. What he was advocating in public back in July sounded nothing like the bill that Nancy Pelosy was announcing in Congress - his proposal was far more to the right, in fact, which made even some of his staunch supporters a bit angry. He promised a world of changes and hinted at numerous ruptures, and it's gradually dawning on people that there has been reluctancy in passing even gradual and small reforms. 

Don't you think the lack of clarity in public discourse in general also helps fostering the kind of nonsensical opposition to any proposed health-care reform bill that magicalfreddie and you have pointed out? In fact, how many different bills dealing with the issue have been discussed lately in Congress? I was told that the most recent one put forth by the Democrats has more than 1000 pages!       

    





[/QUOTE]
Well, I wasn't planning to dive into this in depth, but Obama was never my choice. I felt that the situation we were in after Bush required someone with experience, but the Obama campaign managed to sell the young people on "Change" over "Experience". Not that there weren't enough mistakes made to go around, but the way the Obama campaign talked, he would have to be going to Washington as king in order to deliver. The fact that people ate this up was as baffling to me as Bush's Walk-in-the-park speech about invading Iraq. Part of it was also that people really wanted to elect the first black president. 

I'm in Iowa, where we had the first caucuses and really were inundated with politics. I've never been involved in it before, but after Bush-Cheney...................My guy, Joe Biden, ended up as Obama's VP, oddly enough. So I found myself in the Obama camp anyway at the end. I volunteered for Joe Biden, and I got to be around him whenever he was in our part of the state, help set up appearances and hear him speak a number of times. I think we would be in better shape if he were president and Obama was VP, in training for the top job, so to speak. Joe would never have promised the moon when he knew damn well that it couldn't be delivered the way things were going. He's a liberal guy, but practical, and after 35 years in the Senate he was a known quantity so that colleagues would know what to expect from him.

I don't for the life of me know why Obama didn't get right in there about the health care issue instead of just letting it get ripped to shreds for so long. I don't think the 1000 pages part is anything that out of the ordinary. They have voted on plenty of stuff that nobody but their staffers ever read first. That this one is being made a big deal of, due to the 1000 pages part is just blowing smoke.

The growing importance of the internet is both a blessing and a curse because stuff spreads on it like wildfire. Add to that these conservative radio windbags whipping the flames, as well as the blogs on both sides, and you get chaos. Obama used the internet to his advantage to win, but now its sort of biting him in the butt. Viral emails circulate asserting stuff about the health bill that isn't even true, like "pulling the plug on Grandma" to save money, but it gets gullible people all excited. Plus they also bring up hot button issues like abortion that gets the Bible thumpers all wound up and hostile. It's just a mess and I don't know where it will end up.

lets put this another way.
If i lived in the US I'd probably be dead now due to their healthcare practises as they stand at the present [i would not be able to afford their insurance plans],thankfully i live in the UK  where i get FREE  NHS [national health service] healthcare and am able to get treated at home by nurses for my diabetes if it flares up without having to go to hospital.
shouldnt every human being be entitled to free health care if it can be made available,it shouldnt come down to whether or not they can afford to be ill or not..?

I don't think the protesters have ever heard of a little thing called the Declaration of Human Rights, much the less read the thing.

[QUOTE]





[b]JoxerTheDeityPirate wrote: [/b]



lets put this another way.
If i lived in the US I'd probably be dead now due to their healthcare practises as they stand at the present [i would not be able to afford their insurance plans],thankfully i live in the UK  where i get FREE  NHS [national health service] healthcare and am able to get treated at home by nurses for my diabetes if it flares up without having to go to hospital.
shouldnt every human being be entitled to free health care if it can be made available,it shouldnt come down to whether or not they can afford to be ill or not..?

[/QUOTE]

My husband Dan and I were always fortunate enough to get healthcare provided through my husband's place of employment. In 2002, Dan was laid off from his company. It took quite awhile for him to find an new job, and during that time we were covered by Cobra, which allows you to purchase healthcare through our old employer at their price for a certain length of time while looking for a new job/health insurance.  When he did find a new job, the company did not provide healthcare. My husband had to begin shopping for a healthcare plan. Now, I was born with a genetic connective tissue disorder called Ehler's Danlos Syndrome. And later on in life I have been riddled with other illnesses, including Deep Vein Thrombosis, Veinous Insufficiency, Autoimmune disorders and the like. I am on many prescription drugs to manage my conditions, and must have frequent bloodwork, hospital tests, etc. When my husband set out to find us healthcare, he was astounded. He called dozens of Insurance companies, and ALL  told him the same thing. They would insure my husband, and my son. But because of my pre-existing conditions, NOT me. Finally, the BEST deal we got was 1700.00 dollars a month, with a deductable of 4000.00 dollars!!!! My prescriptions alone were 700.00 dollars a month at that time!! Needless to say, we were quickly in ruins. We couldn't afford food. The house payment. The stress was overwhelming. My husband found a new job as quickly as he could (but being in his 50's and in a crumbling economy it wasn't easy and it took quite a long time.)  We now have great healthcare through my husband's new employer, but still live in fear everyday that with the poor economy that his new company will close or stop providing healthcare. If this happens I don't even know what we will do.

Something must be done.

Hi, this is Janet's husband Dan. Just to add to Janet's post, the only way that I was even able to get healthcare benefits for her at all during that time was to start my own company back up (At one point I had owned my own company, and even though I was no longer in business, I kept the company open.) and to join COSE, a group that forms together many small businesses to get better healthcare prices. And it is true that until I finally did that not one insurance company would insure my wife.

Thank goodness that I found my new job when I did. We were almost done in already, and then six months after I got my new job with healthcare I was diagnosed with prostate cancer and had to go through surgery and weeks of radiation. I shudder to think what may have happened if I had not found my new job.