"Some people say that Fred MUST have written the lyrics because of 'hitman school'"
I'm sorry but no one has ever said that, you are making stuff up now to back up your speculation.
mooghead
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12yrslouetta
Interesting post. As an aside i was under the impression, or rather i thought i read somewhere that Roger and John had already started Made In Heaven as Brian was to busy, but when brian heard what they had done the only way he would get involved was if they started again with him at the helm. I was sure i read that. Of course i may have got that read.
[/QUOTE]As an aside, its very difficult, damn near impossible to determine averages of who wrote what. For example (now this is stretching it a bit), what would my input be counted as if my only suggestion was, hey freddie you know what, we should put an opera section after brians solo" It may be just one suggestion but how could you determine an average on my participation??[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]As an aside, its very difficult, damn near impossible to determine averages of who wrote what. For example (now this is stretching it a bit), what would my input be counted as if my only suggestion was, hey freddie you know what, we should put an opera section after brians solo" It may be just one suggestion but how could you determine an average on my participation??[/QUOTE]
Sebastian
[QUOTE]
[b]mooghead wrote: [/b]
"Some people say that Fred MUST have written the lyrics because of 'hitman school'"
I'm sorry but no one has ever said that, you are making stuff up now to back up your speculation.
[/QUOTE]
No one has ever said that? Sure.... because you know EVERYTHING EVERYONE HAS EVER SAID. NOTHING has EVER been said without YOU knowing it.
It is you who are making stuff up now to back up your speculations about other people's speculations.
[b]mooghead wrote: [/b]
"Some people say that Fred MUST have written the lyrics because of 'hitman school'"
I'm sorry but no one has ever said that, you are making stuff up now to back up your speculation.
[/QUOTE]
No one has ever said that? Sure.... because you know EVERYTHING EVERYONE HAS EVER SAID. NOTHING has EVER been said without YOU knowing it.
It is you who are making stuff up now to back up your speculations about other people's speculations.
Cwazy little thing
[QUOTE]
[b]Sebastian wrote: [/b]
Freddie wrote the music, but not necessarily the lyrics. Here are some recurring themes:
* Dr May sings the demo: True, BUT, it's a 1-minute demo. Even if it 'proved' he'd written those two verses (melody-wise and lyric-wise, including the 'shit' line that's not present in the final version), it does NOT mean, imply or suggest AT ALL that he created the remaining 81.756% of the song.
* Dr May sings all backing vocals: Yes, so? While it was a frequent case to have the composer singing all BV's (e.g. [i]Love of My Life, Tenement Funster, Leaving Home Ain't Easy[/i]), it is NOT an error-proof evidence (e.g. [i]Scandal, Calling All Girls[/i]).
* There'd never been a song written by Fred with the demo sung by somebody else before. Why would there be one then? Well, by that logic: Fred never died, because he hadn't died before. He wasn't born either... conclusion: there's a first time for everything. Considering his health and the fact they'd got some deadlines, it could happen that Bri stepped in to sing the 54-sec demo in order to keep the ball rolling. It does NOT mean or imply that he wrote the remaining 81.756% of the song, or that Fred had nothing to do with the music, lyrics or melody (of either that portion or the remaining 81.756% of the track).
* Some people say that Fred MUST have written the lyrics because of 'hitman school' (similar to 'school of lover boys'). Well: is it physically impossible for somebody else to write those lyrics? By that logic, because John wrote 'you ('re my best friend)' in his song, it instantly became strictly forbidden for anybody else on the planet to write the word 'you'. Hence, all the songs, poems or scripts having 'you' MUST have been penned by John Deacon. Of course, in the case Fred in fact wrote those two words, it doesn't AT ALL imply, prove or suggest he wrote the remaining 99.0521% of the lyrics. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Based on the existing data, both options are possible.
[/QUOTE]
I do agree with the suggestion that Brian might have demo'd the track because he'd worked on it in Freddie's absence and wanted to keep the ball rolling as it were, as that seems perfectly plausible, but can I flip this on its head for a second:
Basically what you've done there ^ Seb is say that the evidence in favour of Brian writing the track (namely the fact he demo'd it, and that he sings the BV's) is circumstantial (I can also understand the poster above that thought it was Brian's due to it being a very heavy track).
Ok, fair enough, but what is your evidence for it being a Freddie track?
I dont mean that in any sort of "YOU MUST PROVE YOUSELF!" way - Im genuinely curious as Id just assumed it was Brian originated since I first heard Innuendo. Has one of the band said it was Freddie's at some point?
[b]Sebastian wrote: [/b]
Freddie wrote the music, but not necessarily the lyrics. Here are some recurring themes:
* Dr May sings the demo: True, BUT, it's a 1-minute demo. Even if it 'proved' he'd written those two verses (melody-wise and lyric-wise, including the 'shit' line that's not present in the final version), it does NOT mean, imply or suggest AT ALL that he created the remaining 81.756% of the song.
* Dr May sings all backing vocals: Yes, so? While it was a frequent case to have the composer singing all BV's (e.g. [i]Love of My Life, Tenement Funster, Leaving Home Ain't Easy[/i]), it is NOT an error-proof evidence (e.g. [i]Scandal, Calling All Girls[/i]).
* There'd never been a song written by Fred with the demo sung by somebody else before. Why would there be one then? Well, by that logic: Fred never died, because he hadn't died before. He wasn't born either... conclusion: there's a first time for everything. Considering his health and the fact they'd got some deadlines, it could happen that Bri stepped in to sing the 54-sec demo in order to keep the ball rolling. It does NOT mean or imply that he wrote the remaining 81.756% of the song, or that Fred had nothing to do with the music, lyrics or melody (of either that portion or the remaining 81.756% of the track).
* Some people say that Fred MUST have written the lyrics because of 'hitman school' (similar to 'school of lover boys'). Well: is it physically impossible for somebody else to write those lyrics? By that logic, because John wrote 'you ('re my best friend)' in his song, it instantly became strictly forbidden for anybody else on the planet to write the word 'you'. Hence, all the songs, poems or scripts having 'you' MUST have been penned by John Deacon. Of course, in the case Fred in fact wrote those two words, it doesn't AT ALL imply, prove or suggest he wrote the remaining 99.0521% of the lyrics. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Based on the existing data, both options are possible.
[/QUOTE]
I do agree with the suggestion that Brian might have demo'd the track because he'd worked on it in Freddie's absence and wanted to keep the ball rolling as it were, as that seems perfectly plausible, but can I flip this on its head for a second:
Basically what you've done there ^ Seb is say that the evidence in favour of Brian writing the track (namely the fact he demo'd it, and that he sings the BV's) is circumstantial (I can also understand the poster above that thought it was Brian's due to it being a very heavy track).
Ok, fair enough, but what is your evidence for it being a Freddie track?
I dont mean that in any sort of "YOU MUST PROVE YOUSELF!" way - Im genuinely curious as Id just assumed it was Brian originated since I first heard Innuendo. Has one of the band said it was Freddie's at some point?
Sebastian
During a Sunset Strip interview made to Maylor in 1991, Brian commented that he wasn't even in the room when Fred wrote it (the riff). He then changed the key and some of the notes to make it playable on guitar, and later on John would reconstruct the track, changing the order and (whatever he meant by) 'everything'.
While that's as much circumstantial evidence as the BV's and the 54-sec demo (and the fact it's heavy says nothing... remember [i]Ogre Battle, Princes of the Universe, Let Me Entertain You[/i] or even [i]Was It All Worth It[/i]?), it makes sense considering the song, arrangement aside, does fit Fred's style a lot more than Brian's if you look through it musically.
Of course, none of that gives us any account on the melody, the lyrics and other details. We do know, of course, that Brian was heavily involved with it, but that can also be said about Freddie and [i]Radio Ga Ga[/i] and the song is still Roger's, isn't it? Or George Martin and [i]Yesterday[/i], etc.
What can be inferred from both interviews and song analysis is that [i]The Hitman[/i]'s got a very mixed approach, with all sans Roger having a lot to do with it at some point (unless, hypothetically, Roger contributed to the lyrics rather strongly, there's nothing to confirm or deny that), which still works for the point I'm making (i.e. late era Q was NOT mainly Brian).
The topic's far from being finished or cleared, and I hope one year from now we can look back and think 'how little we knew about it, and how much there's still to research on'... that's the whole point of these threads IMO.
While that's as much circumstantial evidence as the BV's and the 54-sec demo (and the fact it's heavy says nothing... remember [i]Ogre Battle, Princes of the Universe, Let Me Entertain You[/i] or even [i]Was It All Worth It[/i]?), it makes sense considering the song, arrangement aside, does fit Fred's style a lot more than Brian's if you look through it musically.
Of course, none of that gives us any account on the melody, the lyrics and other details. We do know, of course, that Brian was heavily involved with it, but that can also be said about Freddie and [i]Radio Ga Ga[/i] and the song is still Roger's, isn't it? Or George Martin and [i]Yesterday[/i], etc.
What can be inferred from both interviews and song analysis is that [i]The Hitman[/i]'s got a very mixed approach, with all sans Roger having a lot to do with it at some point (unless, hypothetically, Roger contributed to the lyrics rather strongly, there's nothing to confirm or deny that), which still works for the point I'm making (i.e. late era Q was NOT mainly Brian).
The topic's far from being finished or cleared, and I hope one year from now we can look back and think 'how little we knew about it, and how much there's still to research on'... that's the whole point of these threads IMO.
GratefulFan
I've always thought 'Hitman' to be a pefect and deliberate metaphor for AIDS in that song behing the song kind of way. For that reason I always imagined it to be lyrically led by Mercury with suggestions by the others. But what do I know. ;) I do know that for me, it's an outstanding track.
Sebastian
And you could easily be right, Grateful Fan. We do know it's definitely not 100% any of them, and we do know that it's definitely not one of the tracks Bri was doing for his solo album (those were [i]Headlong[/i] and [i]I Can't Live With You[/i]).
Mr Butambul
Blimey....i'm enjoying the read.
Sebastian
[QUOTE]
[b]Mr Butambul wrote: [/b]
Blimey....i'm enjoying the read.[/QUOTE]
Gr8! So am I ;)
[b]Mr Butambul wrote: [/b]
Blimey....i'm enjoying the read.[/QUOTE]
Gr8! So am I ;)
4 x Vision
Seb, with Freddie getting sicker at the end and spending less time in the studio... is their a chance Brian got to do more editing of ALL the final material (again M, I, and MIH) though... never mind who contributed what to each song as you've kindly brokedown?
I'd argue throughout their career Brian and Freddie where still the two most intelligent and creative in the group (despite all their hits), and made best with all the songs put forward... so would it make sense that Brian possibly got more control over the material on how it finally sounded on the last 3 albums??? Now remember I'm only asking so be nice!!!
I'd argue throughout their career Brian and Freddie where still the two most intelligent and creative in the group (despite all their hits), and made best with all the songs put forward... so would it make sense that Brian possibly got more control over the material on how it finally sounded on the last 3 albums??? Now remember I'm only asking so be nice!!!
Sebastian
Fred only spent less time in the studio at the end. During Miracle and Innuendo, he spent MORE time in the studio as it's physically easier and less demanding to sit at a console and produce, than the whole touring, giving interviews, playing concerts that Maylor were doing.
As David Richards commented, the only time he couldn't stay there and choose the tracks, direct the mixing and editing, etc... was on his final [i]Winter's Tale[/i] session, when he simply left DR to do the job of picking the vocal lines and so on.
So no: Brian was NOT the team leader (neither was Freddie), and late era Q was NOT mainly Brian (it was NOT mainly Freddie either).
As David Richards commented, the only time he couldn't stay there and choose the tracks, direct the mixing and editing, etc... was on his final [i]Winter's Tale[/i] session, when he simply left DR to do the job of picking the vocal lines and so on.
So no: Brian was NOT the team leader (neither was Freddie), and late era Q was NOT mainly Brian (it was NOT mainly Freddie either).
Pim Derks
Interesting topic. Wonder what Roger and John recorded while Brian was on tour in 1993. Remember that Roger and John also performed as Queen that year and Roger even said in an interview that they were going to continue, with or without Brian. Would love to see a box dedicated to these sessions - but ofcourse nothing will ever be released....
The Real Wizard
[QUOTE]
[b]Sebastian wrote:[/b]
During Miracle and Innuendo, he spent MORE time in the studio as it's physically easier and less demanding to sit at a console and produce, than the whole touring, giving interviews, playing concerts that Maylor were doing.[/QUOTE]
That is indeed a logical conclusion to make, but it is not unequivocal proof of the proposition that "Fred only spent less time in the studio at the end," as you are stating it to be.
If I may speak for mooghead for a brief moment, these are the kinds of statements he is objecting to. You weren't there in the studio in 1990 and 1991, so you don't know how often he was there. The only people who do are in or closely related to the band at the time, and they sure as heck have no obligation to tell anyone about any specifics, as it's none of anyone's business unless they want it to be.
During the filming of the I'm Going Slightly Mad video, there was a bed backstage for Freddie to rest on between takes, as he had such little energy. If anything, this should suggest that he was not consistently busy in the studio in the last year of his life.
[b]Sebastian wrote:[/b]
During Miracle and Innuendo, he spent MORE time in the studio as it's physically easier and less demanding to sit at a console and produce, than the whole touring, giving interviews, playing concerts that Maylor were doing.[/QUOTE]
That is indeed a logical conclusion to make, but it is not unequivocal proof of the proposition that "Fred only spent less time in the studio at the end," as you are stating it to be.
If I may speak for mooghead for a brief moment, these are the kinds of statements he is objecting to. You weren't there in the studio in 1990 and 1991, so you don't know how often he was there. The only people who do are in or closely related to the band at the time, and they sure as heck have no obligation to tell anyone about any specifics, as it's none of anyone's business unless they want it to be.
During the filming of the I'm Going Slightly Mad video, there was a bed backstage for Freddie to rest on between takes, as he had such little energy. If anything, this should suggest that he was not consistently busy in the studio in the last year of his life.
Yara
[QUOTE]
[b]Sir GH wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Sebastian wrote:[/b]
During Miracle and Innuendo, he spent MORE time in the studio as it's physically easier and less demanding to sit at a console and produce, than the whole touring, giving interviews, playing concerts that Maylor were doing.
[/QUOTE]
That is indeed a logical conclusion to make, but it is not unequivocal proof of the proposition that "Fred only spent less time in the studio at the end," as you are stating it to be.
If I may speak for mooghead for a brief moment, these are the kinds of statements he is objecting to. You weren't there in the studio in 1990 and 1991, so you don't know how often he was there. The only people who do are in or closely related to the band at the time, and they sure as heck have no obligation to tell anyone about any specifics, as it's none of anyone's business unless they want it to be.
During the filming of the I'm Going Slightly Mad video, there was a bed backstage for Freddie to rest on between takes, as he had such little energy. If anything, this should suggest that he was not consistently busy in the studio in the last year of his life.
[/QUOTE]
Another good thread aborted.
[rolls eyes]
No one [i]here[/i] was [i]there[/i]. If that's the only criterion for trying to make sense of Queen's history, then it's better to shut down the forum.
I'd rather read logical, informed conclusions than illogical ones. It's enough that Sebastian's posts are helpful and thought provoking - much more so than anyone else's here lately.
Of course it's a matter of perception and personal opinion. And it is so even for the people who were actually there. Each one of them has his own perception of things and none of them holds the absolute pristine unassailable truth. The user is not saying otherwise. And he'd sound absolutely annoying if he started off every single sentence with "in my most humble opinion...". For anyone with a little bit of maturity, for Christ sake, it's obvious that he's stating his opinions, as everybody else does.
This is getting destructive and alienating one of Queenzone's most thoughtful posters.
Not even the best researches are about spouting out "facts". It's always a matter of doing the best use of whatever evidence one may have at hand and, of course, resorting to reason and logic to put the pieces together.
If he's guilty of stating his logical conclusions based on the vast amount of things he read, then I'd like all users to be found guilty of the same crime. The criminal forum would be undoubtedly a better one.
[b]Sir GH wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Sebastian wrote:[/b]
During Miracle and Innuendo, he spent MORE time in the studio as it's physically easier and less demanding to sit at a console and produce, than the whole touring, giving interviews, playing concerts that Maylor were doing.
[/QUOTE]
That is indeed a logical conclusion to make, but it is not unequivocal proof of the proposition that "Fred only spent less time in the studio at the end," as you are stating it to be.
If I may speak for mooghead for a brief moment, these are the kinds of statements he is objecting to. You weren't there in the studio in 1990 and 1991, so you don't know how often he was there. The only people who do are in or closely related to the band at the time, and they sure as heck have no obligation to tell anyone about any specifics, as it's none of anyone's business unless they want it to be.
During the filming of the I'm Going Slightly Mad video, there was a bed backstage for Freddie to rest on between takes, as he had such little energy. If anything, this should suggest that he was not consistently busy in the studio in the last year of his life.
[/QUOTE]
Another good thread aborted.
[rolls eyes]
No one [i]here[/i] was [i]there[/i]. If that's the only criterion for trying to make sense of Queen's history, then it's better to shut down the forum.
I'd rather read logical, informed conclusions than illogical ones. It's enough that Sebastian's posts are helpful and thought provoking - much more so than anyone else's here lately.
Of course it's a matter of perception and personal opinion. And it is so even for the people who were actually there. Each one of them has his own perception of things and none of them holds the absolute pristine unassailable truth. The user is not saying otherwise. And he'd sound absolutely annoying if he started off every single sentence with "in my most humble opinion...". For anyone with a little bit of maturity, for Christ sake, it's obvious that he's stating his opinions, as everybody else does.
This is getting destructive and alienating one of Queenzone's most thoughtful posters.
Not even the best researches are about spouting out "facts". It's always a matter of doing the best use of whatever evidence one may have at hand and, of course, resorting to reason and logic to put the pieces together.
If he's guilty of stating his logical conclusions based on the vast amount of things he read, then I'd like all users to be found guilty of the same crime. The criminal forum would be undoubtedly a better one.
The Real Wizard
[QUOTE]
[b]Yara wrote: [/b]
No one [i]here[/i] was [i]there[/i]. If that's the only criterion for trying to make sense of Queen's history, then it's better to shut down the forum.
[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't go that far. No doubt Sebastian is an expert on Queen's music in more ways than one, but if people look up to you as some kind of expert, you should be certain that opinions are not stated as facts. There are linguistic ways to distinguish between the two, without having to resort to the IMHO route.
[b]Yara wrote: [/b]
No one [i]here[/i] was [i]there[/i]. If that's the only criterion for trying to make sense of Queen's history, then it's better to shut down the forum.
[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't go that far. No doubt Sebastian is an expert on Queen's music in more ways than one, but if people look up to you as some kind of expert, you should be certain that opinions are not stated as facts. There are linguistic ways to distinguish between the two, without having to resort to the IMHO route.