Was late era Q mainly Brian?

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[b]Yara wrote: [/b]

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[b]Sir GH wrote: [/b]







 





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[b]Sebastian wrote:[/b]







 







During Miracle and Innuendo, he spent MORE time in the studio as it's physically easier and less demanding to sit at a console and produce, than the whole touring, giving interviews, playing concerts that Maylor were doing.







 





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That is indeed a logical conclusion to make, but it is not unequivocal proof of the proposition that "Fred only spent less time in the studio at the end," as you are stating it to be.

If I may speak for mooghead for a brief moment, these are the kinds of statements he is objecting to.  You weren't there in the studio in 1990 and 1991, so you don't know how often he was there.  The only people who do are in or closely related to the band at the time, and they sure as heck have no obligation to tell anyone about any specifics, as it's none of anyone's business unless they want it to be.

During the filming of the I'm Going Slightly Mad video, there was a bed backstage for Freddie to rest on between takes, as he had such little energy.  If anything, this should suggest that he was not consistently busy in the studio in the last year of his life.
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Another good thread aborted. 

[rolls eyes]

No one [i]here[/i] was [i]there[/i]. If that's the only criterion for trying to make sense of Queen's history, then it's better to shut down the forum. 

I'd rather read logical, informed conclusions than illogical ones. It's enough that Sebastian's posts are helpful and thought provoking - much more so than anyone else's here lately. 

Of course it's a matter of perception and personal opinion. And it is so even for the people who were actually there. Each one of them has his own perception of things and none of them holds the absolute pristine unassailable truth. The user is not saying otherwise. And he'd sound absolutely annoying if he started off every single sentence with "in my most humble opinion...". For anyone with a little bit of maturity, for Christ sake, it's obvious that he's stating his opinions, as everybody else does. 

This is getting destructive and alienating one of Queenzone's most thoughtful posters.

Not even the best researches are about spouting out "facts". It's always a matter of doing the best use of whatever evidence one may have at hand and, of course, resorting to reason and logic to put the pieces together.
 
If he's guilty of stating his logical conclusions based on the vast amount of things he read, then I'd like all users to be found guilty of the same crime. The criminal forum would be undoubtedly a better one.   

   





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here, here!

Exactly: even people who were there can (and often) disagree in their views. Typical Rashomon effect. For instance: let's say Fred was wondering about possible ways to finish [i]Friends Will Be Friends[/i], and he offered three of them, of which Dr May suggested the one about reversing the order ('right 'til the end friends will be friends). Four people witness the moment, or learn about it: one thinks Fred already knew what to do and was just confirming that was the best choice; another one sees it as a collaborative moment between both; another one sees it as 'Fred had no fucking idea, and without Brian's genius advice he'd be nothing'; another one simply assumes the lyric was co-writen (which is tad different to the second option). All of them could be right, all of them could be wrong.

Mooghead criticised the fact that (according to him/her, and that's speculation as well - so s/he should have started it with 'in my opinion...')  my [i]only[/i] source' what I hear. Dear Lord... I deserve the death penalty for having my HEARING sense as a source for MUSIC research!!!!! Last time I tried to [i]smell[/i] whether Roger hits an A or an Ab on [i]'39[/i] I failed... but I suppose that's just me...

The thing's simple: those who don't like my research can refrain from visiting my website.

And by the way, there are several sources (both witnesses and implied conclusions) about Fred spending his last years completely devoted to his work, as opposed to just going in the studio to sing and then leaving the dirty work to the others (and BTW the others aren't just Brian May).

I can agree with both Yara and SirGH here.

I must admit, I have MORE recently added "IMO" as much as I can for fear of being held to ransom for claiming I am giving a factual statement. I come here to get my thoughts/questions out of my head and hopefully start some good threads were more experienced members like SEB, SirGH, PD, JS etc can (if they'd like) take part. Then I try my best to keep up lol.

You're right Yara, there is a fine line between opinion and fact and which you are trying to put over in a TEXT based forum.

But SIrGH is also right. Seb has a habit of jumping on opinions which don't relate to his own train of thought... and more often than not, with the research he has put in over time, and with much better "Queen filling" he can add to his answers will always look like his [b]opinions[/b] be more correct than less experienced members... Doesn't make everything he says fact I know, but often it does look that way. IMO (lol)

A few times I have made observations or have asked questions only to have been taken exactly the wrong way, as if I'd been trying to mislead. I am quite careful with my answers/questions/topics so that I never portray my opinion as fact. It annoys me sometimes that I have to go to great lengths and so do others, when they've simply been taken out of context.

This is in no way offered as a criticism of you Seb and i hope you don't see it as such. I've personally told you how thankful i am that you participate in my threads. I only wish more like minded folk would do the same, as lately you are the only "expert" (i know you don't claim to be, but in terms of QZ) who visibly gets involved. Sadly, i feel some of these discussions are not as interesting to the older members any more which is a MASSIVE SHAME.

Also... YARA, where have you been ? lol

There's a lot of interesting stuff in what you wrote, and I'll try to reflect every point as much as I can:

* I agree with Yara that if we were to follow Mooghead's rules, we should shut the forum and all Queen websites, Actually, we should shut Bri's Soapbox too since he's also stated wrong things now and then.

* All in all, there are two big and strong sub-groups IMO: those who think Queen = Freddie, and those who think Queen = Brian. And both are way off.

* I do acknowledge that I'm very firm (which is NOT the same as stubborn) about my conclusions, simply because I tend to very very thorough when it comes to research of any kind (my BD website, while far from being perfect, is a proof of that), so it's not about thinking Plant sang higher than Taylor just because it 'seemed so' to me, but being (within the obvious limitations we all have) certain that Taylor sang higher than Plant because their top notes were mathematically compared. (For the record, I don't fucking know about Plant's range, it was only a hypothetical example). That's VERY different from jumping to other people's throats if they disagree. But then again, there ARE
topics with B/W answers, and if I happen to know any of them, I've got no problem in correcting mistakes when they appear. For instance, there's NO way to establish whether Show Must Go On's a better song than I Want It All or viceversa. So, you can have people saying Show's better, others saying IWIA's better, and they're both 'right'. But, other things can be measured: which one's longer, which one was written/recorded first, which one has higher/lower notes, which one has faster guitar scales/licks, which one has more chords, etc...

* With that in mind, if anybody says 'I like My Fairy King more than Bo Rhap', that's their opinion and I respect it (regardless of whether I agree or not, and in this case I don't). But if anybody says 'My Fairy King has higher notes than Bo Rhap' that can be measured, and it doesn't, and I know that; hence, I 'jump in' and correct. Like it? Fine. Dislike it? Fine - I haven't got to ask for permisson anyway. Does it mean I think of myself as a god, a walking encyclopaedia of music or a person whose opinion's worth more than anybody else's? No, of course not - and if anybody sees it as that, it's their problem, not mine. It simply means that some stuff IS black or white. For instance, to be a bit BTT, late era Q was NOT mainly Brian (just like it was NOT mainly Freddie, NOT mainly Roger and NOT mainly John).

* It's been commented that 'what (I) know is what (I) hear' as if it were a bad thing. Again, the #1 source you can have for music is HEARING. How often do you see a serious musical research based on the way the notes, chords or modulations SMELL? But it's indeed an important point: I haven't got any special source of info, I'm using the same records, interviews and liner notes we've all got access to, and I haven't got any extra ear or CSI type of tool to separate sounds with perfect quality (even for background noises in a phone call - what's the deal with that?). Besides the fact I'm a professional musician (as many people here, so it's not something rare or special here) and as such can understand and organise certain things quite well without feeling I'm speaking a foreign language, my only vice for being a so-called 'expert' here by many (and an idiot by many, as well) is the fact I'm curious enough to research. And that's how the site started: I read 'Was It All Worth It was written by May', and no further explanation was given besides the fact it'd got heavy guitars and hence it HAD TO be Brian's (ridiculous argument). So, I simply didn't buy it. After some research I confirmed what I'd thought: both May and the producer had commented it's (chiefly) Freddie's. When I was prepared enough to make a song analysis, I again found many
Mercury-esque details that agreed with what had been concluded from a journalistic perspective. So... a myth fell down, and I started to compile a new list. I published it on QMS, loads and loads thought I was merely an idiot who was against what EVERYBODY knew... but eventually some started to see it made sense, and I slowly gained respect (curiously, loads of visits to my website come from people who hate me). Same for Bo Rhap: I read '180 voices', and the only difference is that I didn't buy it.

* Does it mean I'm Prometheus giving fire to people who didn't know what it was? No, of course not. But I did do (with all the mistakes and errors it contains) a thoughtful research and dared 'uncover' several aspects. For that I am proud and I can say I've done a good job in and for the Queen community. Does it mean I deserve a medal, a trophy, a thousand quid and a box of Fred's ashes?No. But I am very proud when I read things quoted or paraphrased (with or without permisson, with or without credit, directly or indirectly, depending on the case) from my web and my research both in sites (QueenConcerts, QueenPedia, QueenSongs, UltimateQueen, Wikipedia), books and even the press occasionally.

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[b]Sebastian wrote: [/b]

During a Sunset Strip interview made to Maylor in 1991, Brian commented that he wasn't even in the room when Fred wrote it (the riff). He then changed the key and some of the notes to make it playable on guitar, and later on John would reconstruct the track, changing the order and (whatever he meant by) 'everything'.

While that's as much circumstantial evidence as the BV's and the 54-sec demo (and the fact it's heavy says nothing... remember [i]Ogre Battle, Princes of the Universe, Let Me Entertain You[/i] or even [i]Was It All Worth It[/i]?), it makes sense considering the song, arrangement aside, does fit Fred's style a lot more than Brian's if you look through it musically.

Of course, none of that gives us any account on the melody, the lyrics and other details. We do know, of course, that Brian was heavily involved with it, but that can also be said about Freddie and [i]Radio Ga Ga[/i] and the song is still Roger's, isn't it? Or George Martin and [i]Yesterday[/i], etc.

What can be inferred from both interviews and song analysis is that [i]The Hitman[/i]'s got a very mixed approach, with all sans Roger having a lot to do with it at some point (unless, hypothetically, Roger contributed to the lyrics rather strongly, there's nothing to confirm or deny that), which still works for the point I'm making (i.e. late era Q was NOT mainly Brian).

The topic's far from being finished or cleared, and I hope one year from now we can look back and think 'how little we knew about it, and how much there's still to research on'... that's the whole point of these threads IMO.
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Ah, excellent - I assumed you'd have a good source for your assertion, and true enough, there it is (and yes, my mind immediately went to tracks like Ogre Battle when I first heard it suggested it was a Fred originated track).

I have no doubt Queen were as collaborative as ever towards the end - demonstrated by their willingness to share writing credits if nothing else.

And incidently, I can smell an Ab a country mile away. hehe
:D

GOOD discussion, and I am, as ever, delighted to be educated a bit.

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[b]Sebastian wrote: [/b]


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Nicely structured response and makes a lot of sense. What I will say is, you mention you use your "ear" just like everyone else, so have no advantage, but you go on to mention you have professional musical training (which one would have guessed by some/most of your answers). I personally think this does give you a little benefit over the lay Queen fan (to our benefit may i add, that you can give such detailed info... and then Yara can explain it all for us who don't get it lol).

I only made the previous statement because I think you sometimes misread the initial poster or replier ([b]just like lots of us do[/b] [b]in all fairness[/b]). You still seem to think that I set out with this topic i.e [i]Was late era Q mainly Bri?[/i] to give my opinion that HE WAS more Queen... when i've really just had a thought from another thread and then asked the question, let folk give their answers, so as i can then base my personal conclusion... in this case, I AGREE, HE WASN'T. You have enlightened me into the amount that Freddie still contributed, even as he got sicker. Funnily enough, i used to be one of those Freddie=Queen fans, and only in last few years as I got older (and wiser lol) I saw past my bias and gave the others their due, especially Brian.

As mentioned above though, there is no real answer. We'll never know who made the most contribution over time in the studio... as we weren't there!!! Chances are John was the creative one who changed all their material to give it the "Deacon sound" which we now know as the "Queen sound" he he.

[b]Back to topic :[/b]

[i]Thanks for all your answers and some fun discussion, my own conclusion as mentioned is that they were all still equal (last 3 albums Miracle, Inn, MIH) and nobody tried to "take over" in the studio to influence the end product. Although it may seem he had more creative influence over MIH, that being true if he restarted the work undertook by John and Roger.[/i] (I'd love to have the demos from the MIH sessions more than any other album... also a good 5.1 of any of the Heaven For Everyone versions so as i can listen to Freddie's middle harmonies which are stunning).

To add... I manage bars and nightclubs in Scotland. Over the years i've worked in every part of the hospitality industry. I've worked in some fantastic management teams over the years and in turn, developed my own abilities through learning the best (in what I see) in my colleagues. The Van Basten 9 (lol) I am today, is very different from the Van Basten 9 of  5 years ago. I can see in myself some great changes in the way I operate and manage people/tasks etc.

You may ask...WTF? But...

Would the Queen members have retained their own unique style THROUGHOUT their Queen career (up to 1991)??? Or would they have let themselves learn from the other members in the group and in turn alter their style? I think the obvious answer is "[b]yes"[/b]... but there were big arguments in the studios, they did have rows and conflicting views on how the material should ultimately sound... so much so that they let the song's creator have final say on it's end product? Would their "arrogance" (remember they are rock artists... and have said they were arrogant) have meant that they kept their individualism in the studio or could they have majorly altered the way they work to the point that they may even mimic the style/thinking of one of the others... thus making a discussion such as we're having all the more difficult? Especially when discussing or dissecting an individual song or era!!!

e.g 1 :  I would have put money on the Hitman being Brian's song... both in writing and in the end product... heavy, strong guitars.. kinda like Headlong and I Want It All. I was shocked that it was Freddie's... but it could make sense that he'd written it in a Brian-esque way. This may suggest Sebastian is right in saying they were all 4 equal members, but there is still an argument against this conclusion... mainly down to their personalities and to the much documented rows they had in the studio, resulting in them putting Queen down as opposed to individual song writing credits from Miracle onwards to avoid them arguing further.

e.g 2 : Of all the solo projects.... Freddie sounded like Freddie. Roger and The Cross, nothing like Queen in the slightest. John's Biggles thing i've never heard... [b]Brian solo works sound like Queen albums[/b] (this all being what I hear, not on fact).

With this in mind, could this alter the topic's argument in any way???? Even slightly lol

Brian sounded like Queen because he wanted to, not because he was Queen.

It's the same I've always said: though I haven't listened to TCR, I suppose there's not a track similar to [i]The Prophet's Song[/i]. Is that incontestable proof that, regardless of the credits, it must have been written by either Freddie or John? Of course not, it simply proves the 2008 May's different from the 1975 one (not necessarily better or worse).

Same case here: 'Mr Bad Guy' was issued in an era during which Fred was immersed in minimalistic and disco-oriented music (it was done between the two only Queen albums I hate BTW), which is why there are no [i]Bo Rhap[/i]'s, [i]Master-Stroke[/i]'s or [i]Love of My Life[/i]'s there.

It's also a matter of approach: while Freddie and Roger tended to use their off-Queen stints to try very different ideas, Brian was more cautious and stayed playing in the same field, with the only difference that Cozy & Neil gave the sound a heavier feel, and the doctor sang himself (very beautifully indeed). That can also be found in his songwriting: both his ballads and his heavy tracks remained in a more or less similar pattern (i.e. [i]I Want It All [/i]was, keyboards-aside, as classic Queen as it could get). That's not what Roger did, for instance (compare [i]Modern Times[/i] [i]Rock 'n' Roll[/i] with [i]Days of Our Lives[/i]), and neither thing's 'better' or 'worse', but it's an important difference to keep in mind.

[i]The Hitman[/i]'s a recurring problem for this research: as a matter of fact, it's a mistake to think it's a May track, but it's also a mistake thinking it's solely a Mercury one. Remember [i]Ga Ga[/i] or [i]Magic[/i]... same case here.

Here's a thought concerning the "mystery" of Brian's demo of Hitman. (in case it hasn't been solved already)

If it's true that Brian "changed some of the notes of Freddie's original riff and also changed the key" the the logical questions about the demo are: 1) Is it in the same key as the final recorded version of the song, and, 2) is the riff identical to the final version.

If the answer to these questions is "yes" then we can safely assume that Brian made this demo after he had changed Freddie's original idea. Brian's demo COULD in fact be his way of saying to Freddie (and others): Look, I changed your song a bit and this is my vision of how it should go.

Now, I leave it to your ears to decide if the demo has Freddie's original idea or Brian's ideas.

[QUOTE]

[b]Van Basten 9 wrote: [/b]

To add... I manage bars and nightclubs in Scotland. Over the years i've worked in every part of the hospitality industry. I've worked in some fantastic management teams over the years and in turn, developed my own abilities through learning the best (in what I see) in my colleagues. The Van Basten 9 (lol) I am today, is very different from the Van Basten 9 of  5 years ago. I can see in myself some great changes in the way I operate and manage people/tasks etc.

You may ask...WTF? But...

Would the Queen members have retained their own unique style THROUGHOUT their Queen career (up to 1991)??? Or would they have let themselves learn from the other members in the group and in turn alter their style? I think the obvious answer is "[b]yes"[/b]... but there were big arguments in the studios, they did have rows and conflicting views on how the material should ultimately sound... so much so that they let the song's creator have final say on it's end product? Would their "arrogance" (remember they are rock artists... and have said they were arrogant) have meant that they kept their individualism in the studio or could they have majorly altered the way they work to the point that they may even mimic the style/thinking of one of the others... thus making a discussion such as we're having all the more difficult? Especially when discussing or dissecting an individual song or era!!!

e.g 1 :  I would have put money on the Hitman being Brian's song... both in writing and in the end product... heavy, strong guitars.. kinda like Headlong and I Want It All. I was shocked that it was Freddie's... but it could make sense that he'd written it in a Brian-esque way. This may suggest Sebastian is right in saying they were all 4 equal members, but there is still an argument against this conclusion... mainly down to their personalities and to the much documented rows they had in the studio, resulting in them putting Queen down as opposed to individual song writing credits from Miracle onwards to avoid them arguing further.

e.g 2 : Of all the solo projects.... Freddie sounded like Freddie. Roger and The Cross, nothing like Queen in the slightest. John's Biggles thing i've never heard... [b]Brian solo works sound like Queen albums[/b] (this all being what I hear, not on fact).

With this in mind, could this alter the topic's argument in any way???? Even slightly lol
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That's the reason I don't like brians solo stuff, it's that it sounds like queen. Too me a solo album supposed to be different, like roger or freddie's stuff.   I respect roger for trying new things, while brian did the same shit over and over.