I know I may have already said this on Facebook,
but is the Jazz remaster worth buying?
I'm really stuck right now...
gagakid1906
Thread
Posts in chronological order
Back2TheLight
Jazz, being my least favorite CD, I heard now sounds quite a bit better than before. When it comes out here in the US, I will more than likely obtain a copy.
gagakid1906
bambams-paradise wrote: Jazz, being my least favorite CD, I heard now sounds quite a bit better than before. When it comes out here in the US, I will more than likely obtain a copy.
thanks :) will keep that in mind
thanks :) will keep that in mind
TyphoonTip
Track down a first press instead. Sounds much better. The EQ is similar on the new remaster, but the 2011 is heavily limited and less dynamic. Don't be fooled.
They're reasonably available on ebay. I'd recommend the 1986 European press (CDP 7 46210 2), or if you keen on shelling out some cash, the 1988 Japanese press (CP32-5315).
Avoid the 1991 Hollywood and 1993-4 DMS releases. Both sound awful.
They're reasonably available on ebay. I'd recommend the 1986 European press (CDP 7 46210 2), or if you keen on shelling out some cash, the 1988 Japanese press (CP32-5315).
Avoid the 1991 Hollywood and 1993-4 DMS releases. Both sound awful.
Rotwang
I haven't heard it but I personally think you should listen to some tracks on youtube or amazon instead of asking for opinions. This is a subjective matter and those that are keen on criticizing because they own music software to look at EQ levels and so forth are getting a bit irritating.
TyphoonTip
Rotwang wrote: I haven't heard it but I personally think you should listen to some tracks on youtube or amazon instead of asking for opinions. This is a subjective matter and those that are keen on criticizing because they own music software to look at EQ levels and so forth are getting a bit irritating.
________________________
Terrible. Irritating indeed. I think there's a cream for that.
While we're on the subject, what I find irritating is presumptive posts guessing at how people arrive at a particular opinion.
Opinion. ...sorry, just felt the need to type that word again for some reason.
Anyway, back on topic; EQ software, you say. Googling now. And to think, All this time I've been using my ears....
________________________
Terrible. Irritating indeed. I think there's a cream for that.
While we're on the subject, what I find irritating is presumptive posts guessing at how people arrive at a particular opinion.
Opinion. ...sorry, just felt the need to type that word again for some reason.
Anyway, back on topic; EQ software, you say. Googling now. And to think, All this time I've been using my ears....
pittrek
Well, I would say it sounds 1% better than the Japanese mini-vinyl :-)
e-man
played it start to finish earlier today
the best version I've heard. lots of vocals which all of a sudden came to life, the drums sound better as well
the best version I've heard. lots of vocals which all of a sudden came to life, the drums sound better as well
rhyeking
The 2011 remaster features "Jealousy" with the bass drum reinstated, which, according to the liner notes, was mistakenly left off the original master for this track, resulting its absence from all subsequent releases until 2011. It's safe to say this new master will be the definitive one from this point on.
Let the discuss began as to whether this constitutes Queen pulling a George Lucas on us. Personally, I think if Queen intended it to be there and it was a mistake to leave it off, we now have the correct version.
Let the discuss began as to whether this constitutes Queen pulling a George Lucas on us. Personally, I think if Queen intended it to be there and it was a mistake to leave it off, we now have the correct version.
Rick
I rather don't respond, because audiophiles will kill me for this, but the 2011 version is great. I really don't understand why people say other releases are better. I have the first CD pressing of Jazz and it's worse. It sounds thin, the volume is way too low, no bottom end at all, buried vocals. The 2011 version brings the subtleties to life. Like guitar parts in Let Me Entertain You and If You Can't Beat Them, Fred's vocal part in Jealousy, John's bass part in Bicycle Race etc.
I have a Harman/Kardon set and it sounds bloody amazing. Get it!
I have a Harman/Kardon set and it sounds bloody amazing. Get it!
TyphoonTip
As another poster has helpfully pointed out, there's no objective 'best' master. The best one is the one that you happen to like.
Anyone claiming, audiophile or otherwise, that they somehow have exclusivity in 'knowing' what's best, is just rubbish. Having said that, there is a lot to be learned from people who genuinely know their stuff when it comes to the mastering process. I've worked in music production for a while, but am only really scratching the surface when it comes to this stuff. There's some smart people out there who make for very interesting reading/listening (if you're interested in that kind of thing). ...Having said that, there are also plenty of snobby wankers.
For my part, I just find the first press of this album the best. That's not to say I think the 2011 is bad. In fact, like I said before, the EQ is quite faithful to the original, but in the end I find it too loud. It's just not for me.
As for the kick in Jealousy, am I the only one who finds it hard to swallow that it was simply 'mistakenly' left off the album? I haven't heard an explanation that I find convincing as to why this apparently happened. It just seems far more likely that it was an artistic decision, particularly given the well known perfectionism of the band. They were famous for poring over mixes & even overseeing how records were physically pressed. It just seems completely implausable that it was accidently left out.
Anyone claiming, audiophile or otherwise, that they somehow have exclusivity in 'knowing' what's best, is just rubbish. Having said that, there is a lot to be learned from people who genuinely know their stuff when it comes to the mastering process. I've worked in music production for a while, but am only really scratching the surface when it comes to this stuff. There's some smart people out there who make for very interesting reading/listening (if you're interested in that kind of thing). ...Having said that, there are also plenty of snobby wankers.
For my part, I just find the first press of this album the best. That's not to say I think the 2011 is bad. In fact, like I said before, the EQ is quite faithful to the original, but in the end I find it too loud. It's just not for me.
As for the kick in Jealousy, am I the only one who finds it hard to swallow that it was simply 'mistakenly' left off the album? I haven't heard an explanation that I find convincing as to why this apparently happened. It just seems far more likely that it was an artistic decision, particularly given the well known perfectionism of the band. They were famous for poring over mixes & even overseeing how records were physically pressed. It just seems completely implausable that it was accidently left out.
smilebrian
I'm with you Typhoon Tip on Jealousy.
I do find it a bit hard to swallow, especially given it's Freddie's track and he obviously can't oversee this "correction".
These are remasters, not remixes, so it's a step too far for me.
Unless somehow this kick drum is on the stereo mix down master tape and was left out of the final cut for some reason... I'm not technical so not sure if that's even plausible...? If that's the case, then I'd be OK with it, but that seems highly unlikely as there is monster bass guitar all over this (and it sounds freaking awesome on a good vinyl pressing).
Actually, I'm guessing it can't be on the stereo mix down because then it would have reappeared on subsequent vinyl cuts, CD's etc etc. Most likely just more inane, poor decision making from the current QP set-up.
I'll keep my vinyl and CP32 thanks.
I do find it a bit hard to swallow, especially given it's Freddie's track and he obviously can't oversee this "correction".
These are remasters, not remixes, so it's a step too far for me.
Unless somehow this kick drum is on the stereo mix down master tape and was left out of the final cut for some reason... I'm not technical so not sure if that's even plausible...? If that's the case, then I'd be OK with it, but that seems highly unlikely as there is monster bass guitar all over this (and it sounds freaking awesome on a good vinyl pressing).
Actually, I'm guessing it can't be on the stereo mix down because then it would have reappeared on subsequent vinyl cuts, CD's etc etc. Most likely just more inane, poor decision making from the current QP set-up.
I'll keep my vinyl and CP32 thanks.
brians wig
I'm sure I posted this elsewhere, but i think the Kick Drum on Jealousy is simply a giant cock-up by QPL.
It's only supposition, but let's look at some facts:
1) Gary Taylor himself said (in reply to a question from me on this forum), that there was only one 'unique' version on Deep Cuts 2 - Jealousy.
2) These albums were originally planned for the beginning of June, but were put back three weeks.
My conclusion to this is that some muppet put the 'unique' version of Jealousy destined for "Deep Cuts 2" on the 'Jazz' album AS WELL. This mistake was only noticed after tens of thousands of CDs had been pressed and printed, and it was deemed far simpler and cheaper to let the 'mistake' remain and re-print the sleeve notes, than it would have been to re-press all those CDs - hence the release date was put back.
If this IS the case, then it would be nice for someone at QPL to grow a pair and admit it.
It's only supposition, but let's look at some facts:
1) Gary Taylor himself said (in reply to a question from me on this forum), that there was only one 'unique' version on Deep Cuts 2 - Jealousy.
2) These albums were originally planned for the beginning of June, but were put back three weeks.
My conclusion to this is that some muppet put the 'unique' version of Jealousy destined for "Deep Cuts 2" on the 'Jazz' album AS WELL. This mistake was only noticed after tens of thousands of CDs had been pressed and printed, and it was deemed far simpler and cheaper to let the 'mistake' remain and re-print the sleeve notes, than it would have been to re-press all those CDs - hence the release date was put back.
If this IS the case, then it would be nice for someone at QPL to grow a pair and admit it.
rhyeking
How can they prove it was a genuine mistake if it, in fact, was and all they can do is tell us?
I suppose somebody could post the tracking sheets, which should show which track was assign the bass drum in 1978. All that would prove is that it existed, which isn't the point of contention here. We're curious as to how it was left off at the time of mastering the album. It seems like a big mistake for an engineer to make. Some responsibility lies on the band's shoulders, where it's Freddie's song and Roger's instrument. Surely, one of them would notice, or Brian or John, but perhaps not. Later, the song wasn't a hit and didn't get a lot of play, so maybe they rarely put the album on or paid enough attention to realize there was no bass drum.
A question perhaps lurking in the shadows is: Did Freddie or the band leave the bass drum off on purpose in 1978?
Why? I have no idea. The song lost some low-end support and hearing the bass drum now, it's an improvement. Someone suggested that the bass drum version was intended for Deep Cuts 2 only, not necessarily the album, which raises another question: How would we have felt if it had been left on on the Jazz remaster (to maintain the original album), but was included on Deep Cuts 2?
In the end, though, what we're left with is that it the drum is there now, where it wasn't before (for 33 years). Do we accept their explanation at face value? It's difficult to prove a negative, such as something not having happened (in this case, the drum was absent by honest mistake).
I suppose somebody could post the tracking sheets, which should show which track was assign the bass drum in 1978. All that would prove is that it existed, which isn't the point of contention here. We're curious as to how it was left off at the time of mastering the album. It seems like a big mistake for an engineer to make. Some responsibility lies on the band's shoulders, where it's Freddie's song and Roger's instrument. Surely, one of them would notice, or Brian or John, but perhaps not. Later, the song wasn't a hit and didn't get a lot of play, so maybe they rarely put the album on or paid enough attention to realize there was no bass drum.
A question perhaps lurking in the shadows is: Did Freddie or the band leave the bass drum off on purpose in 1978?
Why? I have no idea. The song lost some low-end support and hearing the bass drum now, it's an improvement. Someone suggested that the bass drum version was intended for Deep Cuts 2 only, not necessarily the album, which raises another question: How would we have felt if it had been left on on the Jazz remaster (to maintain the original album), but was included on Deep Cuts 2?
In the end, though, what we're left with is that it the drum is there now, where it wasn't before (for 33 years). Do we accept their explanation at face value? It's difficult to prove a negative, such as something not having happened (in this case, the drum was absent by honest mistake).
TyphoonTip
rhyeking wrote: How can they prove it was a genuine mistake if it, in fact, was and all they can do is tell us?
I suppose somebody could post the tracking sheets, which should show which track was assign the bass drum in 1978. All that would prove is that it existed, which isn't the point of contention here. We're curious as to how it was left off at the time of mastering the album. It seems like a big mistake for an engineer to make. Some responsibility lies on the band's shoulders, where it's Freddie's song and Roger's instrument. Surely, one of them would notice, or Brian or John, but perhaps not. Later, the song wasn't a hit and didn't get a lot of play, so maybe they rarely put the album on or paid enough attention to realize there was no bass drum.
A question perhaps lurking in the shadows is: Did Freddie or the band leave the bass drum off on purpose in 1978?
Why? I have no idea. The song lost some low-end support and hearing the bass drum now, it's an improvement. Someone suggested that the bass drum version was intended for Deep Cuts 2 only, not necessarily the album, which raises another question: How would we have felt if it had been left on on the Jazz remaster (to maintain the original album), but was included on Deep Cuts 2?
In the end, though, what we're left with is that it the drum is there now, where it wasn't before (for 33 years). Do we accept their explanation at face value? It's difficult to prove a negative, such as something not having happened (in this case, the drum was absent by honest mistake).
_________________________________________
Hard facts, as you point out, may be an impossibility. So all we're left with is judging their explanation on the balance of probabilities. And for me that boils down to this:
QP current position:
- The kick was simply "mistakenly" left off.
What we KNOW about Queen (as they were at the time):
- Immersed themselves completely in the recording process to the point of attaining a 'perfectionist' label by some.
- Paid incredible attention to the mixing process. Often resulting in multiple mixes of tracks, until either compromises could be reached, or indeed the writer of a particular song was completely satisfied.
- Paid great attention to the physical manufacturing of the records; to ensure that their hard work had been accurately represented in the product they were releasing to the public.
Conclusion:
- For me it's impossible to reconcile what we KNOW about Queen with the explanation that we have been given.
- The only rational explanation is that,
a) Queen, and more importantly Freddie, would have been well aware of the missing kick.
b) It was approved it for release.
c) Therefore, it was more than likely an artistic decision.
I suppose somebody could post the tracking sheets, which should show which track was assign the bass drum in 1978. All that would prove is that it existed, which isn't the point of contention here. We're curious as to how it was left off at the time of mastering the album. It seems like a big mistake for an engineer to make. Some responsibility lies on the band's shoulders, where it's Freddie's song and Roger's instrument. Surely, one of them would notice, or Brian or John, but perhaps not. Later, the song wasn't a hit and didn't get a lot of play, so maybe they rarely put the album on or paid enough attention to realize there was no bass drum.
A question perhaps lurking in the shadows is: Did Freddie or the band leave the bass drum off on purpose in 1978?
Why? I have no idea. The song lost some low-end support and hearing the bass drum now, it's an improvement. Someone suggested that the bass drum version was intended for Deep Cuts 2 only, not necessarily the album, which raises another question: How would we have felt if it had been left on on the Jazz remaster (to maintain the original album), but was included on Deep Cuts 2?
In the end, though, what we're left with is that it the drum is there now, where it wasn't before (for 33 years). Do we accept their explanation at face value? It's difficult to prove a negative, such as something not having happened (in this case, the drum was absent by honest mistake).
_________________________________________
Hard facts, as you point out, may be an impossibility. So all we're left with is judging their explanation on the balance of probabilities. And for me that boils down to this:
QP current position:
- The kick was simply "mistakenly" left off.
What we KNOW about Queen (as they were at the time):
- Immersed themselves completely in the recording process to the point of attaining a 'perfectionist' label by some.
- Paid incredible attention to the mixing process. Often resulting in multiple mixes of tracks, until either compromises could be reached, or indeed the writer of a particular song was completely satisfied.
- Paid great attention to the physical manufacturing of the records; to ensure that their hard work had been accurately represented in the product they were releasing to the public.
Conclusion:
- For me it's impossible to reconcile what we KNOW about Queen with the explanation that we have been given.
- The only rational explanation is that,
a) Queen, and more importantly Freddie, would have been well aware of the missing kick.
b) It was approved it for release.
c) Therefore, it was more than likely an artistic decision.