America bankrupt?

catqueen wrote:

yeah... i don't understand why Obama isn't that well liked in the usa.  And i dont understand how the republicans are so popular.  I mean, how can u convince SO many people that this is in their interests?!  

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Most Americans qualify under at least one of these categories:

- barely capable or incapable of independent thought
- easily swayed by manipulation
- racist

That should just about cover it.  I mean, really ... how dumb do you have to be to actually believe that not paying to see the doctor is somehow not a good idea?  And to believe that bombing other countries is somehow more important than lowering the unemployment rate from ~10%?  It really does boggle the mind.

That said, Obama has pissed off a lot of his voter base because he has been trying to find middle ground with the republicans.  One of his biggest campaigning points was trying to bridge the gap between the left and right, but in the end this has hurt him more than it has helped him.

Sir GH wrote:  
Most Americans qualify under at least one of these categories:

- barely capable or incapable of independent thought
- easily swayed by manipulation
- racist

That should just about cover it. 
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^ Disappointed that someone who seemed to be above writing something like this would actually write this.
Please tell me that someone hacked your account.

Sir GH wrote:

Most Americans qualify under at least one of these categories:

- barely capable or incapable of independent thought
- easily swayed by manipulation
- racist

That should just about cover it.  I mean, really ... how dumb do you have to be to actually believe that not paying to see the doctor is somehow not a good idea?  And to believe that bombing other countries is somehow more important than lowering the unemployment rate from ~10%?  It really does boggle the mind.

That said, Obama has pissed off a lot of his voter base because he has been trying to find middle ground with the republicans.  One of his biggest campaigning points was trying to bridge the gap between the left and right, but in the end this has hurt him more than it has helped him.
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I think some of this is a little facile.  First, citizens of universal healthcare countries certainly do pay to see the doctor.  It's not free, and it's not without sacrifice.  In Canada we pay in high taxes, and we often sacrifice choice, timeliness of care and the benefits and efficencies of private sector competition and dollars.  Do you really think the only arguments against government managed healthcare come from stupid people? My salary is decent enough that I could probably purchase insurance in a private system that would provide more benefits and services than I currently get, but I strongly believe that healthcare is a human right that should be equally available to all so I'm untroubled by any (mostly minor) personal sacrifices for the principle. However, I certainly understand the intellectual arguments against it and the arguments that urge caution, and they are not without some merit.  Just because the public discourse tends to absurd oversimplifications like 'death panels' and other nonsense doesn't mean there isn't a discussion to be had.  

Sometimes middle ground and compromise are great things.  Sometimes they're just weak, shit solutions that make nobody very happy.  I'm not sure I'd particularly want a political leader to be focused on 'bridging the gap'. The whole idea of democracy is the robust competition between often radically different ideas. It's their job to be partisan, and it's our job as voters to shape our respective nations by voting the best and worst ideas from both sides in and out over time.  Obama's hopey-changey-bridgey schtick was never going to be a reality (I spent most of 2008 silently (usually) yelling at my TV screen in disbelief) and I certainly wish he would have waited four or eight years to run and gathered some political experience.  Now there is a distinct possibility that all that intelligence and poetry and high minded affability will be wasted on a single term in tough times.  Unfortunate if it turns out that way.

queenUSA wrote:

^ Disappointed that someone who seemed to be above writing something like this would actually write this.

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I'm flattered by your back-handed compliment :-)

Point 1)

"Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States" -- Senator Barry Goldwater

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." -- Henry Ford

Point 2)

Fox News is still the most watched news program in the US.  If these people could think independently, they would know the difference between reputable news and a right-wing think tank propaganda system.

Point 3)

Go south of Tennessee and you won't have much trouble finding entire counties where there isn't a single black person to be found.  The average white person carries a gun and will shoot if they see a black person.  One of these people is a second-cousin of mine, so I know.  But with respect to Obama, you can bet your life that millions of republican voters didn't want Obama in office simply because he's black.

My wording above was slightly ambiguous - obviously I didn't mean to imply most Americans were racist.  I said at least one of the three categories.  That said, categories 2 and 3 really aren't even necessary to make my point.  99% of the country doesn't have a clue of who controls their money, and that's all that really needs to be stated.

GratefulFan wrote:

"I certainly understand the intellectual arguments against it and the arguments that urge caution, and they are not without some merit.  Just because the public discourse tends to absurd oversimplifications like 'death panels' and other nonsense doesn't mean there isn't a discussion to be had."

Very fair point.  But there is one simple solution - if the public health care system was all it could be, there would be no need to seek alternatives in the private sector.  But as long as there are right-wing politicians, they will always have friends in private enterprise who need money before poor people need health care.

"It's their job to be partisan, and it's our job as voters to shape our respective nations by voting the best and worst ideas from both sides in and out over time."

True.  But the best ideas are hard to find, as they are usually nowhere near mainstream media outlets.

Sir GH wrote:  99% of the country doesn't have a clue of who controls their money, and that's all that really needs to be stated.

Thankfully there's things like The Venus Project and such, which I think everyone should at least dig into. Whether they agree with it or not is of course their choice but I think that these at least deserve a watch.

There's an excellent documentary called ZEITGEIST: THE MOVIE which talks about the monetary system among other things.
http://www.zeitgeistthefilm.com/

There's also a ZEITGEIST: ADDENDUM which adds things the original missed out and this might be the greatest documentary I have ever watched. I think at least this needs to be watched by everyone.
http://www.zeitgeistaddendum.com/ 

Both should be available as free downloads on the respective websites. Then there's ZEITGEIST: MOVING FORWARD which I haven't watched but if you want you can get the links from http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

'Zeitgeist: Addendum' in particular is not to be missed, by anyone who gives even just the slightest damn about the world.

queenUSA wrote: Sir GH wrote:  
Most Americans qualify under at least one of these categories:

- barely capable or incapable of independent thought
- easily swayed by manipulation
- racist

That should just about cover it. 
===================

^ Disappointed that someone who seemed to be above writing something like this would actually write this.
Please tell me that someone hacked your account.
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queenUSA,
When I first read Sir GH's post, I shrugged it off because, well, he's not the most "pro-American" person here at Queenzone. :-)

Then, I thought more about what he said, and when you consider the state of the US, with Bush having been in office for not ONE term but TWO, and now with this "Tea Party" further dividing the country, it's hard to argue with him. In fact, I would add a third category to his "Most Americans are" list: Lazy or Indifferent.

There is a silent majority who wants personal choice, responsible spending, fair taxes, defense without preening, and equality in the true sense of the word. But they only pop out of the dark once every few election cycles. It's as if they feel they've done their job by voting four years ago. Or that their one vote won't make a difference. Or that... "election day was when? Yesterday?!"

We do have a lot to be proud of as Americans despite what some might say. However, considering the state of our country over the past decade and how it's only gotten worse despite the efforts of this history-making president, we have a lot to be ashamed of as well. The sooner we admit that, the sooner we can go about fixing it.

^ Lazy and indifferent can be found easily across anyone's border - it's rather common - and by the way so were all the other traits listed by GH.  
For who among us on this planet does not have these things in their own back yard - no matter
what flag is flown above their head?

For the last decade or so (post Sept 11th) we have been sorting ourselves out.   First task - stop Bin Laden. Obviously, it was not laziness or indifference that achieved this - it's been a long haul.  The next piece is to sort out financials and as messy as it is to witness it and live it ... it's being faced.  As history has shown, from our darkest hours (civil war, great depression, etc) we eventually emerge - until of course, the next problem - and there will always be a next one.

The United States has a national debt of $14.3 trillion.

The current debt is only getting publicity because of the legal debt limit in place, otherwise it would have continued to grow unnoticed.

Sir GH wrote: Obama will be a one term president... even though he tried to bring in universal health care, wall street reform, killed bin Laden and wanted to bring Israel back to its '67 borders.  A century from now he'll be looked upon as one of the greatest presidents.. certainly the best since Kennedy.  And Obama certainly learned a thing or two from him because, well .. he's still alive.

2013 to 2020 will be a republican.  You heard it here first. ====

"one term president" - there is no way you can possibly say that now. It is going to depend entirely on what happens to the economy in 2012, and what candidate the Republicans field. If they send in a moderate, most Tea Party-fanatics will vote third-party, if they field a fanatic, they lose the moderate Republicans. The debt ceiling-treaty is quite liable to backfire on the Republicans as much as the democrats.

"one of the greatest presidents, certainly the best since Kennedy" - in spite of all the P.R., Kennedy really wasn't a very good president. If you want to go into this in more detail, send me an e-mail or something, because it is a very long story, but the essence is that Kennedy was incapable of making decisions one way or another, and that his fame rests, apart from his assassination, mostly on the way LBJ handled the 1964-65 period. Kennedy is mostly known as a good president because LBJ was so impopular. Truman was a far better president. In fact, LBJ was a better president than Kennedy.

"2013 to 2020 will be a Republican" - you are assuming Obama will be a one-term president a year and a half before the elections, and you are already sure the Republican candidate will get two terms, despite the fact that you don't even know who it will be? You're getting a bit ahead of yourself here.

queenUSA wrote: ^ Lazy and indifferent can be found easily across anyone's border - it's rather common - and by the way so were all the other traits listed by GH.  For who among us on this planet does not have these things in their own back yard - no matter what flag is flown above their head?

For the last decade or so (post Sept 11th) we have been sorting ourselves out.   First task - stop Bin Laden. Obviously, it was not laziness or indifference that achieved this - it's been a long haul.  The next piece is to sort out financials and as messy as it is to witness it and live it ... it is being faced.  As history has shown, from our darkest hours (civil war, great depression, etc) we eventually emerge - until of course, the next problem - and there will always be a next one.
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I agree with your first paragraph. Absolutely. But... aren't you the least bit disappointed in the way our fellow citizens have either turned against each other without intent to compromise or have stood on the sidelines rather than get involved?

And, I'm sorry to say, but I disagree with much of your second paragraph. Maybe laziness or indifference are not the right words to describe what prevented us from getting bin Laden sooner. Distracted, perhaps, or mislead might be better. But keep in mind, he has not been stopped. His message still rings loud and clear to his followers. As for our financial situation, I think laziness on the part of Congress when it was in the hands of Democrats is an accurate way to describe it. Laziness and even arrogance. The Democrats may have believed they'd hold both houses throughout Obama's term and that they had plenty of time to make the financial changes they wanted - like eliminating the Bush tax cuts. But they didn't act. They didn't increase revenues and they didn't decrease spending. It's their inaction that created the 'shellacking' Obama mentioned after the last mid-term elections and what set the stage for the debt crisis.

I love my country and wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But part of loving it, I think, is recognizing its weaknesses so we can help build it up and make it better.

queenUSA wrote: ^ Lazy and indifferent can be found easily across anyone's border - it's rather common - and by the way so were all the other traits listed by GH.  For who among us on this planet does not have these things in their own back yard - no matter what flag is flown above their head?

For the last decade or so (post Sept 11th) we have been sorting ourselves out.   First task - stop Bin Laden. Obviously, it was not laziness or indifference that achieved this - it's been a long haul.  The next piece is to sort out financials and as messy as it is to witness it and live it ... it's being faced.  As history has shown, from our darkest hours (civil war, great depression, etc) we eventually emerge - until of course, the next problem - and there will always be a next one.

I think you forgot to mention the numerous other countries that the US govt decided to put an army presence in in the past few years?  Like the oil related ones?  Oh oops, i mean the 'anti-terrorist' bits. 
'Stopping bin Laden' as you said... hmm... he was one person.  Who was killed without a trial.  And i'm pretty sure the Taliban have more to replace him, particularly the more their countries get attacked and have a military presence.  Its like giving them grounds for it.   I mean, if i lived in Iraq or Afghanistan, i'd be pretty pissed off at america.  Not that that justifies in any way or sense any kind of attack, but i do see how young guys could get pulled into it.

Well, it was a true happy ending when Gabrielle Giffords was able to vote yesterday.  I think when she got shot, for a brief period, "politics as usual" was put aside and the leaders were together emotionally as friends.  This happened again yesterday.

i would like to know how the US can reduce its debt by $100bn a year over the next 10 years?

JoxerTheDeityPirate wrote: i would like to know how the US can reduce its debt by $100bn a year over the next 10 years?
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I would like to know how other countries intend to spend the billions of dollars in aid the US gives them annually. I've a feeling billions in waste won't be hard to find there.