DId Hot Space create an aversion to risk?

Snackpot wrote: The three albums from 1984-1989 were, despite their quality, surely quite 'safe' albums, weren't they?
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I agree and that is probably the reason that FOR ME, I
prefer and listen to Hot Space far more than following next 3 albums. It's not
necessarily that I prefer funk or whatever because I don't, I tend to like rock
music best. It's just that the following 3 albums sound more contrived. Maybe
too, it’s some of the songs and the continuity of the albums being seen as
simply more of a collection of songs rather than an album. The production on
The Works particularly bugs me for some reason too, maybe it's the reverb etc..

I think most can agree that Innuendo was a return to form and I'm also a huge
fan of Made in Heaven.

Sebastian wrote: D>>> Deaky hated Hot Space? Has he said that?

Yes. When touring Japan, John got interviewed for Music Life, and he clearly stated that he hated both Jazz and Hot Space. When touring Japan with Roger, they both said so as well ('84, I believe). When interviewed in Denmark ('86 ... or maybe it was West Germany), he clearly stated that, for him, the best point of the band's career was their first visit to South America. And the worst: Hot Space, which ironically, was around the same time. 

>>> He always liked funk/soul.

And that may have been the reason. I love choral music. That makes me very anal-ytical of it, and harder to please with it than most people. If I listen to, say, a school choir singing Now Is the Month of Maying (a piece I know fairly well), I can detect errors and inaccuracies on the bass part, for instance, because I *do* know how it's supposed to go. A non-expert on the genre/style may overlook that and content him/her-self with listening to good voices and/or appreciate the effort. For me, that's not enough.

Who do you think are gonna be the most critical people about Fred's biopic? The fans of course, as they (we) know what happened, and as such, we will be able to detect (or more to the point, unable to ignore) mistakes and stuff (for instance, if they claim The Works was recorded in '85 in Switzerland).

For that same reason, John was probably more critical of the band's funk efforts and may have disliked them if he felt his bandmates were not doing it right. So maybe Dancer and Body Language were in a genre that he liked; but for that reason, he'd be more critical and would detect how rookie Brian and Freddie were in terms of writing funk/soul. And if you add the fact that he did not even participate on either track as the composers replaced him by shitty synth-bass ... well, there's your explanation.

The problem with Hot Space is not the genre. It's the sloppiness it's got. John knew the genre well, and having heard stuff like Off the Wall or Donna Summer's late 70's output, Hot Space paled in comparison. If anyone of the four could understand that well, it was John.
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Very interesting. I'd always assumed HS was mostly Deaky/Fred influenced. I've always considered the Brian/Roger tracks to be the weakest on the album (apart from Las Palabras, which is excellent) whereas Deaky's Back Chat is among the best songs he's written. So ... with more Fred/Deaky influence, HS might've been a better album. This may then be the one occasion where the band's "team" effort approach (i.e. song contributions by all 4 members) undermines the quality of the album

Is it possible that John simply wasn't happy with the finished project as opposed to having had serious concerns and reservations about it during the process?

Given how 'democratic' Queen always were, I find it hard to believe that you'd have John, Brian and Roger all on one side and Freddie going against the grain and in the end getting his way. Doesn't seem plausible to me. I can believe John perhaps wasn't happy with the album as it turned out but not that he wasn't on board at the time. Or at least someone willing to back Freddie vs the other two.

I wouldn't believe Freddie just got his own way for the whole album and the other three 'had to' go along with it.

As Freddie said "it's only a bloody record" its not that bad & for me has aged better than The Works

>>> Given how 'democratic' Queen always were, I find it hard to believe that you'd have John, Brian and Roger all on one side and Freddie going against the grain and in the end getting his way.

It wasn't 3 vs 1, it was 2 vs 2: Brian was IN FAVOUR of the album. He still is. Granted, it's not his favourite and he doesn't rate it as highly as Queen II or Made in Heaven, but he's always defended it.

Queen were democratic, yes. But they also had the unwritten law that the author of the song got his way. If he wanted things done in a certain way, that's how they'd be, full stop. Besides Under Pressure, which was credited to five people, there are ten songs on the album, six of which are Brian's or Freddie's entirely, and another one which is partly Freddie. Those 6.5 songs include the funkier side of the album, and those 6.5 songs include most of the drum-machine/synth-bass things.

>>> Or at least someone willing to back Freddie vs the other two.

It wasn't Freddie and John vs the other two. Brian was on board from the start. Two of his songs were heavily layered with synthesisers, one of them doesn't even have real bass ... he's more 'guilty' for HS than John and Roger. 

>>> I wouldn't believe Freddie just got his own way for the whole album and the other three 'had to' go along with it.                                       

Because it wasn't just Freddie. Brian was there too. In fact, on the lead single, only the two of them perform.

Snackpot wrote: Is it possible that John simply wasn't happy with the finished project as opposed to having had serious concerns and reservations about it during the process?

Given how 'democratic' Queen always were, I find it hard to believe that you'd have John, Brian and Roger all on one side and Freddie going against the grain and in the end getting his way. Doesn't seem plausible to me. I can believe John perhaps wasn't happy with the album as it turned out but not that he wasn't on board at the time. Or at least someone willing to back Freddie vs the other two.

I wouldn't believe Freddie just got his own way for the whole album and the other three 'had to' go along with it.

i agree!....The 'Day's of Our lives "Documentry,  Brian and Roger seem to blame Freddie and his boyfriend for Hot Space going bad,  but if they were all equals, like Queenzoner's like to say,  Why did freddie get everything he wanted with the album?.....Hot Space had an obvious Freddie Influence, but he's not entirely too blame.......Brian was on board and so was John,  even if they didn't like the final result...Roger was heading in that direction too, and wrote the first funky track, a song called "fun it" and he introduced the idea of using synth's,  so it's easy for him to put the blame on everyone else when an album is a failure, Especially a dead man.....His own songs were littered with synth's...Action this Day?....Prime Jive?  Radio Ga Ga?......he likes to sound like he's the rocker and cool one, but he's as guilty as anyone for the dance/funk sound....

maxpower wrote: As Freddie said "it's only a bloody record" its not that bad & for me has aged better than The Works

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I agree, Hot Space is way more interesting than The Works which is easily Queen's weakest album. Their only weak album actually. Fabulous singles, disastrous album tracks. I just think Queen ran out of steam by Hot Space. Most bands would have ended here (long before it actually), but Queen found a way to keep on going. Ten years of absolute magnificence, The Works onwards was just a job after that (with some fabulous highlights thrown in).

The band were democratic in things like which song should be the single, where should they tour next, where should they record, etc.

But when it came to individual songs, the author got his way.

So if the person who'd written the song wanted to have it as a loop of bloody elephants making sex noises, that's the way it was gonna be.

And albums were not concept albums, they just turned out the way they turned out due to the songs. So, if an album had more songs by Freddie than by John, then Freddie was more to blame (or to thank, depending on the case) for the musical direction it took.

I don't understand the dislike for Hot Space, personally. I think there's some amazingly well written songs on it. For me it's a better album than The Works, by quite a way.

I assume most people here have heard Staying Power live at the bowl. If they'd recorded it at the tempo they played it live, we'd all be raving about it. Dancer is nothing special, but a solid pop/rock song all the same. Same with Back Chat, had some nice hooks, nice little funky number. Personally I think Body Language is a catchy, light hearted number with a great vocal and more importantly, it was completely different from anything they'd done before, which is a good thing. I like Calling All Girls a lot, even if it's a little pop orientated. Las Palabras de Amor is a beautiful song, and Under Pressure of course is a masterpiece. The only real stinker on that album for me is Cool Cat. 

At the end of the day, they were experimenting with their sound and still managed an album that was better than 90% of what was around then, or now for that matter. There's some great stuff on it. I personally rate it higher than Queen 1, The Works and probably a kind of Magic too.

I also rate it higher than The Works and A Kind of Magic. Not above Queen I though, but that's of course a matter of taste.

I do have some complaints about the way they recorded Hot Space in terms of instrumentation, though. Why using shitty drum machines when you've got an amazing and very underrated drummer? Why using shitty synth-bass when you've got an amazing bassist? Why reducing one of the best guitar players of his genre to a couple of notes at the end of a song instead of getting him to do one of his May-estic solos?

The songs would, in my opinion, have sounded way way way better if they, and Freddie in particular, hadn't used those sessions as ego trips.

Sebastian, you said 'You Don't Fool Me - John & Freddie'. I thought YDFM was Freddie & Roger - in any case, the bare bones of the song would probably be the last track Freddie got credit for. I can see why you put that quotation down - Deacy, like other people have cited, loved his funk vibes. But in all truthfulness, YDFM should probably be credited to David Richards.

Brian commented that the song had originated by John and Freddie. Then DR did his magic and then Roger, John and Brian added new bits. So, in a way, it's a collaboration. However, I personally give the credit to John and Freddie as they originated the song per se.

DR did a mix, and a very good one. But if I put synth phrases, etc. over the progression of Mozart's 40th Symphony, should I be considered a 'composer' or is it still Mozart's creation?

I find it surprising that Brian was in support of Hostpace and John was not. Going by their natural inclination at the time, I would have thought Freddie and John were in favor and Brian and Roger against. Having said that, I also feel that the decision to work on an album that sounds like Hostpace would have been a unanimous decision after the huge success of The Game.

Not really. They didn't make concept albums. The albums resulted from the 10-13 songs they happened to be writing at the time. That's why we've got Stone Cold Crazy and Dear Friends on the same album, or Prophet's Song and Love of My Life, or Dancer and Put Out the Fire.

The fact Brian's a metalhead (sort of) doesn't mean he's always been 100% into that. Remember Anita Dobson? Collaborations with 5ive? Britney Spears? Who do you think wrote Dancer and Las Palabras de Amor?

Are you saying that all of them were writing sngs which coincidentally happen to belong largely to the funk/disco type of music, and hence Hot Sapce got its sound? I don't think that was how it was. I don't know anything for a fact, but it does not convince me.

 I'm sure they decided to do more songs in  the Game style ie somethign along the lines of Bites- Dragon Attack - Coming Soon - Prime Jive and others. Due to the success of Bites as well as the album itself. If the game had not been such a big success or Bites, definitely we would not have got Hot Space. And consequently Thriller :-P

I think we would have got Magic, Miracle sooner.