DId Hot Space create an aversion to risk?

Sebastian wrote:

* Agreeing to do another soundtrack even though Flash had sold far less than Hot Space and in fact I think the only Queen albums that sold less than Flash were 'Queen' and 'Queen II'.

Yay for replying to posts that are several years old.

Excellent post !

But to be fair, Flash Gordon was ultimately a silly parody film, while The Highlander had big names like Sean Connery and Michael Kamen.

It was bound to be much more successful.

But it actually wasn't. It made a lot less money at the box office.

Either way it was still a risk, as was the ultimately-aborted 'Hotel New Hampshire' project.

So the bottomline is 'Hot Space' did not create an aversion to risk, not at all.

you're correct Seb. it did not create an "aversion to risk" but HS did create an aversion to decent song-writing & production...which (sadly) didn't break til Freddie was on his last legs

I disagree.

Who Wants to Live Forever and It's a Hard Life are really good songs. So is Hammer to Fall, though the recording itself leaves a lot to be desired.

I also think they're well-produced records. It's not Mack's or David's fault that the band weren't as inspired as in the past or the future.

Seb
you've named a handful out of approx 50 tracks!!!
even the most ardent fan would have to admit that between The Game and Innuendo - there are more poorly written/produced songs than good.

Poorly written, perhaps.

But not poorly produced. That would be between after 'News of the World' and before 'The Game,' though those were far better written.

I'd posit Princes of the Universe as almost on par with Queen's best standards - let down a bit by the slightly aimless sound of the 'Born to be kings' section. Executed much better in the grittier Highlander version than the album one.

I love A Kind of Magic and Radio Ga Ga too, though they're undoubtedly pop songs without much interesting in the way of structure.

The Miracle, I Want It All, and Scandal are all brilliant in my view. The Miracle would've been much better had they just left out the 'That time will come...' section, which is not only cheesy, but the crossfade into it is completely unmusical. I Want It All is perhaps let down a bit by the fact that it's so blatant and singular in its purpose as a classic Queen-style rock song, almost to the point of being like a caricature. Breakthru isn't profound, but it's great fun to listen to, and would've been top notch if they'd used all real instruments. As for Was It All Worth It?, I don't think many will disagree that it makes all the crappier output worthwhile.

tomchristie22 wrote:

Breakthru isn't profound, but it's great fun to listen to

The same applies to a lot of Queen songs, actually, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Sebastian wrote:

tomchristie22 wrote:

Breakthru isn't profound, but it's great fun to listen to

The same applies to a lot of Queen songs, actually, and there's nothing wrong with that.

........some people want to the fill the world with silly little Queen songs.......

Sebastian wrote:

tomchristie22 wrote:

Breakthru isn't profound, but it's great fun to listen to

The same applies to a lot of Queen songs, actually, and there's nothing wrong with that.

True, but the difference between Breakthru and slightly more lighthearted songs from earlier Queen is inventiveness. Breathru isn't nearly as interesting as Leroy Brown, Mustapha and the like.

[Sorry for double post - the above one would not fix, even when I tried to edit the quotes out entirely]

Sebastian wrote:

Some of the risks they took after Hot Space:

* Not touring the States even though roughly half of their income came from what they sold there.

* Releasing 'Ga Ga' as a lead single.

* Dragging up for the 'Break Free' video.

* Releasing a Xmas single.

* Agreeing to do another soundtrack even though Flash had sold far less than Hot Space and in fact I think the only Queen albums that sold less than Flash were 'Queen' and 'Queen II'.

* Appearing at Live Aid with no soundcheck and no lighting rig and even though they were facing internal conflicts and the whole Band Aid thing had a 'new generation' vibe. For people like The Who and (pseudo) Led Zeppelin, that concert was catastrophic. Queen risked a lot by going there and obviously did a great job which silenced (most of) their critics or doubters. Looking at it in hindsight it was an obvious move, but right until 13th July, it was a risk.

* Releasing a single as non-formulaic and complex as 'Princes of the Universe' in a country where, at the time, the biggest seling hits were things like The Final Countdown, Papa Don't Preach and Rock Me Amadeus.

* Taking time for off-Queen projects, even though Starfleet, Fun It, Strange Frontier and Mr Bad Guy had all sold poorly.

* The Magic tour was also something that right now seems quite obvious, but back then it was a big risk and Freddie, of all people, had reservations about it, which were swiftly eliminated once the tour began and he felt in his element but still, it WAS a risk. It paid off, but it WAS a risk.

* When the biggest hits of the moment were things such as Like a Prayer, Eternal Flame, Don't Worry Be Happy and Orinoco Flow, the single Queen chose as their lead (and also their comeback after their longest hiatus up 'til then) was I Want It All. From a risk-free perspective, things like Invisible Man or even Rain Must Fall would've been more obvious choices when seeing the list of big selling hits from other artists.

* Likewise, neither Scandal nor The Miracle were single material, let alone for *that* year. Two further risks, and results were not positive: both songs are excellent but as singles they were flops.

* By the time Queen finished the Innuendo album (and decided on which the lead single would be), the biggest hits of the moment in both sides of the Atlantic were stuff like Ice Ice Baby, The Postman Song and the song from Ghost. If Queen were into 'an aversion to risk', they'd have chosen Delilah as a lead single (stupid song but a lot of stupid songs were being hits back then) instead of ... Innuendo (granted, Headlong in America, which was still hugely risky considering what was going on at the time).

Almost everything carries some risk in either doing it or not doing it, so the premise of the discussion isn't very strong. With that said:

* Touring the States without a hit record would have been a risk & probably not financially viable, so NOT touring was the safe option.

* Releasing 'Ga Ga' as a lead single was a safe option given that DJs are statistically more likely to play a song with "Radio" in the title. Roger even amended the lyrics at the request of their I#US record company, which is hardly 'taking a risk'.

* Dragging up for the 'Break Free' video wasn't really risky in the UK, especially when it was clearly a parody of the UK's best known soap opera. I also doubt it was risky in the USA as the Stones had done it nearly two decades earlier and it hardly hurt their career.

* Releasing a Xmas single isn't risky at all since it's clearly a one-off and not the norm. I don't think a band can be hurt by the success or failure of a Xmas single, except perhaps if it is so successful that;s all they are remembered for. Besides, Queen were hugely successful in 1984 and there was huge demand for Queen singles in 1984 so it filled a market gap after Hammer to Fall.

* Appearing at Live Aid: I suppose they weighed up the risks of no soundcheck and no lighting rig with the risk of not appearing i.e. missing a huge marketing opportunity and possibly a chance to once again make an impact in the USA.

* Re 'Princes of the Universe', there really is no telling what song will be successful and which won't. At any point in the last 50 years, repetitive, simple songs have been successful, but it doesn't take much research to find the charts filled with unusual, non-formulaic songs (like Bo Rap) or in the 1980s songs like O Superman.

* Taking time off for non-Queen projects could have been the safe option that kept Queen together. Not taking time off might have been the risky option. Queen was the cash cow, so it didn't matter if Brian or Roger's solo careers failed. However, Fred did seem to take a risk with Mr Bad Guy in attempting to forge a solo career. It failed and he came back to Queen with his tail between his legs.

* There was so much demand for Queen in the 1980s that the Magic tour wasn't really a risk except in the very generic way that any large endeavour is risky for any number of logistic or practical reasons. But they had done the maths and seen others do stadium tours so they must have been certain it was financially viable.

All the rest about risky singles makes little sense for the reason stated above: singles don't have to be indicative of the wider music scene and just need to be catchy and promoted properly. That won't guarantee a hit but it gives a song the best chance to be successful.

Some very good points in there. It'd be interesting, for that same reason, to analyse how risky they actually were *before* 'Hot Space'.

^ I would love to read that analysis of risk too.

While waiting, here is my two cents about their mindset, I divide their time into 4 periods:

1973 - 1977: From "Queen" to "A Day at the Races"
They were new, they were ambitious and they were pretty naive. They had plenty of ideas, which they'd been simmering since their youth (for example Seven Seas of Rhye) - big ideas don't just come piling up after several days of brooding. So that was their most profilic period, because it was a cumulation. They threw everything into their albums: prog rock, opera, folk, thash, gospel,... They ran from rat to ogre, from king to car, from painting to spaceship. As a result they couldn't come up with a coherent album name. The first 2 albums were self-titled. The 4th and 5th were, very randomly, named after the Marx Brothers' films. Those albums were a beautiful mess - you couldn't frame Queen into any category with those.
They were taking a big risk there - more than any other period. The financial risk. Breaking contract and spitting at Norman Sheffield with Death On Two Legs was a risk. Brian and Roger and John all abandoning their academic career was a risk (perhaps not much with Roger - he didn't like studying anyway). BoRhap and the over-expensive album was another risk. Not sticking to one genre was a risk. But the boys didn't wince. They were young and they felt invincible.
On stage, they were hungry for audience. They played all of their potential, and Freddie were still very soft with the audience, you can almost hear a pleading in his voice.

1977-1982: From "News of the World" to pre-"Hot Space"
They were at peak of their confidence. They knew they were the best. Songs like We Are the Champions or We Will Rock You are (maybe subconciously) announcement of their state. Or Don't Stop Me Now is one of the cheekiest, most joyous songs that Freddie has written.
When asked in interview "Where is the modesty?", Roger quickly replied "There is none".
The video of Bicycle Race was crazy and could only fit into that timeline.
On stage, Freddie's attitude changed to "Fuck you all". He wouldn't have said that in 1974. He became cockier, and even acted like a divine (Thin Lizzy tour report, if we could believe that).

1982 - 1986: From "Hot Space" to "A Kind of Magic"
The Hot Space failure pulled them back to earth, and made them feel vulnerable. But ideas had run out. When you feel vulnerable, but you no longer have creativity, or much of it, the solution is simple: you go mainstream. Synth pop in this case.
On stage, it's different though: they still rocked it. The audience gave them a shoot in the arm. Freddie became more efficient in commanding the crowd.
I don't think they developped an aversion to risk. They wouldn't go anywhere near Sun City if they thought of risk. All the Queen boys are rather adventurous. But of course ages dampen it a little bit.

1986-1991: The Miracle and Innuendo
Both albums were recorded as Freddie's last goodbye. But actually Freddie was not ready to say goodbye yet in The Miracle (it's not an easy thing to come to term with), that's why the album wasn't ripe. Only until Innuendo you can feel that it was his swan song.