Why the hate for "Loser in the end"

brENsKi wrote: sorry, but NO II is not a concept album. side black is almost a concept - but that's only really because of the segue of
Fairy Fella/Nevermore/Balck Queen...the rest of it NO
as for side white...you need to explain what concept or thread...you named THREE things....and way i see it

Father to Son - real life, maybe set middle ages
White Queen - about someone Brian knew in 1968(ish)
Someday One Day - hippie shit
Losr in the End - about growing up and leaving home
Nevermore - a flowery song about broken love
Funny How LOve Is - a little bit of a nod towards the Lurex single

so i dont see a concept or a them
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Hey! Father to son is almost medieval it´s like king arthur histories and that histories has an implicit magic arround! "Don´t destroy what you see... your country to be" "Kings will be crown"......... and white queen... "the mother of willow green" she´s a magical figure at least... this song even has a very "isabelline" atmosphere...

I ususally don't comment on songs i don't like,  but loser in the end shouldn't have been on Queen2.....the first side belonged to Brian, and of course side 2 was freddie's....for some odd reason they needed to include a roger song...the other two songs people complain about are "funny how love is" and "some day One Day"  both i think are pretty good....loser in the end i alway's skip....

I agree, Queen II is not and was never intended to be a concept album. My understanding is that concept albums usually start with a idea or a set of related ideas, possibly a story, and the work is sculpted and shaped accordingly. Tommy and The Wall are concept albums. Rush did concept 'sides' like 2112. Small Faces' 'Happiness Stan' story is another such side (from Ogden's Nut Gone Flake).

Queen II does have strong thematic, lyrical and musical elements which tie it together:

Procession = A sombre, vaguely regal piece which ends with the strains of "Father To Son".
Father To Son = A letter literally from a father to his son, citing a legacy of conflict and sacrifice repeated through the ages as kings come and go, continuing the hint of medieval or fantasy royalty.
White Queen = inspired by a person Brian admired from afar, though by idolizing her as a 'queen' it ties into the royal ideas present in the other songs.
Some Day One Day = A quiet song of hope after the emotional weight of the previous three tracks. Cleverly, Brian again refers to the woman as a 'queen,' lyrically tying the songs together.
Loser In The End = Though more modern in sensibility and execution, the idea of parents and children is explored once again.
Ogre Battle = A fireside-type story of a great battle. Possibly a Rhye song.
The Fairy Feller's Master-Stroke = Inspired by the painting by Richard Dadd, we're still in a fantasy world here.
Nevermore = A simple song of regret, not overly fantastical, but very lush descriptions.
The March Of The Black Queen = a phantasmagoria-like epic surrounding a a very dark, majestic figure. It's title ties it to Side White's "White Queen."
Funny How Love Is = Again, lyrically, Freddie invokes a vast, all-encompassing world with evocative descriptions.
The Seven Seas Of Rhye = A fantasical demi-god overtaking Rhye in a song capturing the essence of the entire album (Royalty, battle, the elements and the supernatural).

Regarding White Queen and the girl or the moon, Brian said on the Soapbox in  2004: "White Queen" - back in time again - I wrote this at College, where I led a relatively sheltered life, even though the University on the whole was a pretty rampant pace! I had been reading "The White Goddess" by Robert Graves, which explored the role of the idealised Virgin/Mother/Queen/ figure in art through history, and the name for our group, decided just around that time, fitted in with this perfectly - which was one of the reasons I was convinced to go with the name. The personal side is bound up with a girl (of course!) whom I saw every day at College, and was to me the ultimate goddess. It's incredible in retrospect, but because I held her in such awe, in three years I never had the courage to speak to tell her, or even speak to her. The song found its way on to tape much later, on our second album. Interestingly the Graves book he cited is built around imagery and symbolism relating to the phases of the moon and a three faced moon goddess. He talks about Some Day One Day and It's Late in the same post (March 28). http://www.brianmay.com/brian/brianssb/brianssbmar04.html

rhyeking wrote: I agree, Queen II is not and was never intended to be a concept album. My understanding is that concept albums usually start with a idea or a set of related ideas, possibly a story, and the work is sculpted and shaped accordingly. Tommy and The Wall are concept albums. Rush did concept 'sides' like 2112. Small Faces' 'Happiness Stan' story is another such side (from Ogden's Nut Gone Flake).

Queen II does have strong thematic, lyrical and musical elements which tie it together:

Procession = A sombre, vaguely regal piece which ends with the strains of "Father To Son".
Father To Son = A letter literally from a father to his son, citing a legacy of conflict and sacrifice repeated through the ages as kings come and go, continuing the hint of medieval or fantasy royalty.
White Queen = inspired by a person Brian admired from afar, though by idolizing her as a 'queen' it ties into the royal ideas present in the other song.
Some Day One Day = A quiet song of hope after the emotional weight of the previous three tracks. Cleverly, Brian again refers to the woman as a 'queen,' lyrically tying the songs together.
Loser In The End = Though more modern in sensibility and execution, the idea of parents and children is explored once again.
Ogre Battle = A fireside-type story of a great battle. Possibly a Rhye song.
The Fairy Feller's Master-Stroke = Inspired by the painting by Richard Dadd, we're still in a fantasy world here.
Nevermore = A simple song of regret, not overly fantastical, but very lush descriptions.
The March Of The Black Queen = a phantasmagoria-like epic surrounding a a very dark, majestic figure. It's title ties it to Side White's "White Queen."
Funny How Love Is = Again, lyrically, Freddie invokes a vast, all-encompassing world with evocation descriptions.
The Seven Seas Of Rhye = A fantasical demi-god overtaking Rhye in a song capturing the essence of the entire album (Royalty, battle, the elements and the supernatural).
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Superb!! That´s why i love Queen II!!!  i liked your description of "Seven seas of rhye"!

of course there are one or two tenuously similar songs on the album...that was a reflection of the song-writing styles (prog-rock) of the time....but to try an call"II" a concept album is preposterous, and silly

if you're doing that, then let's rewrite musical history...let's rebadge every album under these "thematically-conceptual" rules...anything with similar songs/themes is hereby called a concept album...even tho the bands had no intention of any concept when writing the songs...so here goes..under these rules:

all of Rainbow's (Dio) albums, most of Genesis' early 70s albums, Deep Purple's Machine Head, ALL of Black Sabbath's Ozzy albums....these are all HEREBY concept albums

ridiculous

I've always assumed that the ''hate'' for Loser In The End originates from the fact that the song is total dross.

I dont anyone actually said it was a full concept album in the Who sense, but most people seem to agree that it is more muscially and lyrically  themed than most other Queen albums and Loser in the End sticks out - and not in a good way.

another bizarre comment - you're being pedantic.
you can't have a "nearly concept" album - an album is either a colleciton of songs or a concept
there is no such thing as a "NEARLY CONCEPT" can you see the band sitting down and saying "let's make this a nearly concept?

No it probably came about because Freddie and Brian wrote most of the songs and were in a particular musical /lyrical phase at that time which Roger was not in step with.
Another poster mentioned the phrase "nearly concept" I did not. i merely picked up on it because you probably knew what the poster was driving towards but chose to come back with a different argument. "Queen II does have strong thematic, lyrical and musical elements which tie it together" is the way Rhyeking put it which is probably fairest.
I would suggest its you that is being pedantic as you are focussing on definitions rather than the obvious fact that the song does not fit well on the album. If you honestly think it does fit and its a good song thats fair enough.Otherwise I suspect you are just looking for a debate for its own sake.  I find it to be Rogers weakest track of the first 6 albums and also particularly inappropriate for the albums sound. Do you think it enhances the album as Tenement Funster does  SHA coming off Killer Queen and segueing into Flick of the Wrist ?

AlbaNo1 wrote: No it probably came about because Freddie and Brian wrote most of the songs and were in a particular musical /lyrical phase at that time which Roger was not in step with.
Another poster mentioned the phrase "nearly concept" I did not. i merely picked up on it because you probably knew what the poster was driving towards but chose to come back with a different argument. "Queen II does have strong thematic, lyrical and musical elements which tie it together" is the way Rhyeking put it which is probably fairest.
I would suggest its you that is being pedantic as you are focussing on definitions rather than the obvious fact that the song does not fit well on the album. If you honestly think it does fit and its a good song thats fair enough.Otherwise I suspect you are just looking for a debate for its own sake.  I find it to be Rogers weakest track of the first 6 albums and also particularly inappropriate for the albums sound. Do you think it enhances the album as Tenement Funster does  SHA coming off Killer Queen and segueing into Flick of the Wrist ?
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i'm going to deal with your comments in order:

1. the "lyrical step" is not the case. Roger's song on queen I was also very different to the rest of the album. and you can't suggest something as "probably" and expect me or anyone else to accept it as fact. because it makes your hypothesis no more right or wrong than mine.
2. I never referred to YOUR comment - you really should learn to read. i said your comment was bizarre - and this was a direct reference to your pedancy
3. the next comment i made referred to "nearly concepts" this was not directed at YOU or Rhyeking. My reference was directed to Holly 2003 - who actually DID call II a "nearly concept" - you should check before pickign an argument.
4. your last comment is subjective - and all down to individual taste - personally i like Modern Times Rock n Roll - i think it goes quite well on the first album. Loser In The End (IMO) is not the worst "fit" on II - i personally hate Some Day One Day being on there.
5 - as for "looking for debate for the sake of it" - isn't that what eveyrone is doing? if your opinion differs from another then we ALl have a right to voice it. just because i think SDOD is a bag of crap and LITE is quite good, and you think the opposite...doesn't make us right.

brENsKi wrote: another bizarre comment - you're being pedantic.
you can't have a "nearly concept" album - an album is either a colleciton of songs or a concept
there is no such thing as a "NEARLY CONCEPT" can you see the band sitting down and saying "let's make this a nearly concept?
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Here's what I actually said: "Queen II is nearly a concept/themed album, except for those 2 songs."

If I remove "concept" from that sentence would it help you understand what I'm trying to say? If not, feel free to continue this conversation without me. I can't add much beyond what I've already said. I see a theme there that I suppose you could call "prog" but I would probably call it fantasy/fairytale/mythic. And Loser in the End / Funny How Love Is don't really fit in with that. Both of them stand out like a sore thumb on the album. Incidentally, I quite like Loser but Funny is a bit crap. OVerall however the album is still a cracker.

You did not really respond to all my points - and how do you reconcile your comment about me learning to read with points you have made elsewhere about childish posts? I specifically mentioned Tenement Funster as an example of where Rogers different style works brilliantly unlike on Queen II. On Queen 1 there is a greater variety of songs and the production is not so lush.  So a blast of Roger works well here. Its more common sense that if you have 4 tracks in a row composed by one person, and 6 in a row by another that the solitary track in between written by another is going to stick out more.Its just nominally stuck at the end of side 1 on its own . You know it is.

i said that opinion is subjective. and i feel that LITE is a good fit on that side of the album. That's a personal opinion. I don't feel side white conforms to a theme - side black does. Therefore had LITE been tagged on side black say, instead of FHLI then it would've been an extremely bad fit.
However, LITE fits better on side white than SDOD, as i think there is no real them on this side....how can there be a theme? you have an instrumental followed by two Brian songs that are not co-themed, then the out of place SDOD, then LITE.

also, i'd like you to retract your comment about me "quoting you re: "nearly concepts" and others using that specfic term" it clearly was used - as i stated by Holly 2003, so i had every right to quote it

unless of course, YOU are too important to admit you misquoted me/misunderstood/got it wrong.....or was it YOU who was "debating for the sake of it" ?

I think at this point we're going in circles.

Can we agree on the following...?

- Queen II is not a concept album in the strictest terms, nor was it intended to be.

- Queen II has strong lyrical themes and ideas which, however loosely, connect certain songs to each other in different ways.

- Some people like "Loser In The End" and think it fits fine on the album, whereas others think it's a good song that doesn't quite fit, and some just don't like the song at all.

- Comparisons to other artists' albums can never be absolute and the differences do not negate the similarities.

Everything else is pretty much subjective and this thread could go on for years as we nitpick the wording of each post while ignoring the idea and intention behind it.