What REALLY happened

[QUOTE]

[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]  Blaming John for unfounded accusations while you are the master uf unfounded accusations yourself is really incredible to see. You seem to love to fuel the fire when you are not in the line yourself. To me you look like the bystander of an accident who does not help but stands in the waywhen help comes. I decided not get involved here anymore days ago but I could not help myself - I simply have to defend a good and decent person against such drivel. I have said everything I have to say, so as far as I am concerned you can spare your time, I am not interested in a long and winding pseudo-moral lecture, thank you. Somehow this reminds me of the thread in which you kept asking for "proof" that there was a bad accident in Fukushima. I gave that up at some point and I am not getting into such a ghost debate with you again.[/QUOTE]
As for the rest of your post, the only similarity between this and the Fukushima discussion is that I'm dealing in the knowable facts and you're splattering emotion.  As such, then as now, despite any affection I have for you I neither need your approval or care about your disapproval.  The threads I'm reminded of are the ones where you've spoken about the unjustness and incivility of conviction and punishment without trial and about "authorities" who "believe", "implicate" or "consider".  I have no doubt those are your true principles, but apparently they're easier to apply when you're looking down on the United States than in your own life when you would have to apply them in a distasteful and unpleasant situation. Did you use your position here to appeal for calm and patience and balance while the facts were sorted?  No.  You were the first person of reputation to step in and savage him in an over the top display of contempt.  It was so snappy it got read out loud on a YouTube video called something like "Dave R. Fuller is a liar and a thief".  What if he's not a liar and a thief Barb?  Well done, freedom fighter.

I just noticed what I thought might possibly be a telling choice of words by David on another thread. He said. "I brought a ton to the table in that group and still haven't leaked anything that I only obtained in that group". He does not say that he hasn't leaked anything obtained in that group, but that he hasn't leaked anything only obtained in the group. May add further support to the scenario of using his own files for upload, but only if the material could be obtained elsewhere through trading. He wrote that two days before the watermark information was revealed, I believe, so it is unlikely to be a post-hoc explanation to cover the facts.

May be nothing but it caught my eye.

Am I missing something, or would it be very easy for DRF to prove that he has two watermarked copies? And if he doesn't have both on his computer, he could request the copy that is "out there" from the other trader he was referring to.

Anyway, I think we should stop with personal criticisms (nobody is perfect) and just deal with the facts, even if all we can say (as non group members) is that we have no evidence to deal with, therefore we cannot draw an independent conclusion about what happened.

I'm sure there are huge amounts of room for error in the reasoning on this problem.

And ..... I don't approve of the way things went on here - the personal insults and crude/rude comments on both sides. But some of the points made about trading in general were interesting to me. And such good writers we have here on Queenzone. If there are recordings out there that the band is requesting, as fans, hopefully the collectors/traders will try to accommodate the band's wishes for the benefit of the most people. I am not one of those who believes that things will stay in the archives on dusty shelves for eternity. Ha. I think we will see some interesting releases in our lifetimes. Maybe even some free downloads from Queen.

Fuller made a fool out of the group, because they are fools.
Think about it.

They are a "secret" group who collect rare stolen material.
They've agreed amongst them selves not to talk, in public, about what they have, unless they all agree too. They seem, stupidly, to believe that by doing this they are keeping interest going in one of the biggest bands in the world.
Because they are secret the stuff they are hiding is not for public consumption.

Then David R Fuller posts something that these idiots are claiming ownership of, that they have no legal right too, and they start jumping up and down like a bunch of clock work monkeys.

It's easy to make fools look like fools

[QUOTE]

[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b] GratefulFan- you are dilusional - I have no other word for it. There is a group of people who apparently does know zero about what happened and what was the deal while you, who were never a part of the group, are the only person in the world who knows what happened. Just think about that.

If you were a judge and 20 citizens would testify against a thief you would definitely believe the thief- just for the heck of it. Certainly the 20 citizens must be in the wrong.[/QUOTE]
You know those trial thingies you like in theory for people in Guantanamo Bay but not for people right under your nose?  Well they have people in roles that advocate for fairness in the process for accused.   It's got nothing to do with delusion, I'm not claiming to know what happened and I'm not being contrarian for it's own sake.  Fuller could be a full on psychopath and done all he's been accused of and more for all I know.  I'd still be troubled by the mob response relative to the holes in what has been presented as evidence.  Separate from whether or not he's 'guilty' it bothers me that more people didn't stop and question more things.  I don't "believe the thief", I distrust the mob.

[QUOTE]

[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b] Oh yes - I did see all the log files and Fuller's contribution was zero - as opposed to "tons". So he is a liar and he can sue me if he has a problem with me calling him a liar in public.[/QUOTE]
Despite Fuller claiming at least twice on two separate threads that he was asignificant contributor I believe this is the first claim that he uploaded nothing.  This is precisely the kind of evidence that should be questioned.  It would be a bit delusional *not* to question it.  Can somebody in the group clarify if David uploaded any material? Somebody up thread said "You say you did all the uploading with a few others, it is totally wrong (you participated, but just as everyone did)", but I don't know if that poster was a member of the group.

Also didn't JSS say that some members served in roles that didn't require them to provide audio or video material? So a person could have brought "a ton to the table" in some way that would never be reflected in a log file, and the log file could not help you in determining that they were "liars".  These are precisely the kinds of leaps I'm talking about.  Leaps that start with a premise of guilt and drag the evidence behind it.

OMFG. Just lost a huge post to brian's wig. I'll put it back together later if I can find the will. For now I'll just say quickly that I appreciated the additional detail provided and look forward to further discussion on some of it.

Why do people keep harping on "stolen" music ?  Why do we need to worry for them ?  Being a millionaire, surely JSS has the money to get legal advice on the legal aspects of collecting and sharing of music, and to buy expertise on the security aspects of keeping track of the copies.

[QUOTE] [b]Vocal harmony wrote:[/b]
Fuller made a fool out of the group, because they are fools.
Think about it.
They are a "secret" group who collect rare stolen material.
They've agreed amongst them selves not to talk, in public, about what they have, unless they all agree too. They seem, stupidly, to believe that by doing this they are keeping interest going in one of the biggest bands in the world.
Because they are secret the stuff they are hiding is not for public consumption.
Then David R Fuller posts something that these idiots are claiming ownership of, that they have no legal right too, and they start jumping up and down like a bunch of clock work monkeys.
It's easy to make fools look like fools[/QUOTE]
before i continue - I AM NOT A COLLECTOR

calling people who have provided invaluable research and factoids to this site really doesn't help.
think you've got a damned cheek calling JSS a fool. you clearly never read his detailed series on each and every queen release. all listed on this site for free. you and your cronies would know fuck-all about this band without people like JSS who have bothered to give up their time doing projects like that

and the next time you bemoan the fact that someone heard a new rare track at a convention - but no-one can get hold of it - well that'll be down to what happens when you call fools - the people who invest their time and money into rare collectibles

Wow, nine pages in a week.

[QUOTE] [b]brENsKi wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]Vocal harmony wrote:[/b]
Fuller made a fool out of the group, because they are fools.
Think about it.
They are a "secret" group who collect rare stolen material.
They've agreed amongst them selves not to talk, in public, about what they have, unless they all agree too. They seem, stupidly, to believe that by doing this they are keeping interest going in one of the biggest bands in the world.
Because they are secret the stuff they are hiding is not for public consumption.
Then David R Fuller posts something that these idiots are claiming ownership of, that they have no legal right too, and they start jumping up and down like a bunch of clock work monkeys.
It's easy to make fools look like fools[/QUOTE]
before i continue - I AM NOT A COLLECTOR

calling people who have provided invaluable research and factoids to this site really doesn't help.
think you've got a damned cheek calling JSS a fool. you clearly never read his detailed series on each and every queen release. all listed on this site for free. you and your cronies would know fuck-all about this band without people like JSS who have bothered to give up their time doing projects like that

and the next time you bemoan the fact that someone heard a new rare track at a convention - but no-one can get hold of it - well that'll be down to what happens when you call fools - the people who invest their time and money into rare collectibles[/QUOTE]