Atheism

"Also, mooghead, atheists like you, just like extreme Catholics or extremists of any sort upset me, because you called what I believe in my heart of hearts to be true "all that god crap" and that "surely none of the highly intelligent people who frequent this website actually believe in all that god crap."

If I offended you I apologise. I wouldn't say I am an 'extreme' atheist, I would NEVER try to convince a believer otherwise. I may not respect their religion but I DO respect their right to practise it.


"There is painfully little that is certain,"

But what IS certain can be proven beyond doubt by science and evidence.

I'll chime in and say I consider myself a Christian, and I don't feel I particularly have to justify that here so I'm not going to. I'm not outspoken about it or anything because of conclusions about ignorance or whatever that people inevitably come to. That said, I have nothing but respect for other peoples' views.

Then again, I'm not one of the highly intelligent people who frequents this board, so that would probably explain it :P

I worded that wrongly. After re-reading it now, it seems like I called you an extreme atheist. I didn't mean that, I just mean to say that when people say that what I believe in is crap, it upsets me as much as people that believe in God that say any other religion or belief but theirs is wrongs and has no chance of being true.

I don't think you meant to offend me, but you did kind of upset me.

Well, with respect, if you are that easily upset by what a stranger on an internet message board says I suggest you cut the wire to your house immediately.

[QUOTE] [b]mooghead wrote:[/b]
"There is painfully little that is certain,"

But what IS certain can be proven beyond doubt by science and evidence.

[/QUOTE]

I am an historian by training, and one of the first things a history student is taught in his first year at university is that absolutely nothing you will ever come to find out is absolutely beyond doubt. Things can be extremely likely, such as the common knowledge that Byzantium (Constantinopol/Istanbul) fell in 1453, but you can never be completely sure - there is the extremely unlikely possibility that an error in reckoning occurred, and it was actually 1452 or 1454, or even more outlandish possibilities exist.

In the field of science, within living memory of the oldest members of our society, it was absolutely, unquestionably certain that protons, neutrons and electrons were the absolute smallest particles of matter, and that matter came in only three states: solid, liquid and gaseous. Now, we have discovered literally dozens of sub-atomic particles smaller than that, and we have found at least two distinct new states of matter (plasma and supercooled liquid).

There is no telling what might be discovered in the future. When you look up at the sky at night, you look out into the universe. Not 150 years ago, everyone with any sense was SURE, beyond doubt, that the milky way galaxy formed the whole of the universe. Now we know that there are at least as many galaxies as there are stars in ours.

I am 'sure' of a great many things. Yet I am never of the opinion that anything is beyond doubt.

In which case, convince me that God is extremely likely and I will change my outlook

[QUOTE] [b]mooghead wrote:[/b]

Well, with respect, if you are that easily upset by what a stranger on an internet message board says I suggest you cut the wire to your house immediately.[/QUOTE]

What's changed then since you knew you "might be lighting the touchpaper"?

[QUOTE] [b]mooghead wrote:[/b]

Well, with respect, if you are that easily upset by what a stranger on an internet message board says I suggest you cut the wire to your house immediately.[/QUOTE]

lol

You're not wrong, I take offense easily. However, it's usually just me overreacting to things that were not intended. Just like this one.

In hindsight perhaps crap was the wrong word, and maybe a tad confrontational.

[QUOTE] [b]mooghead wrote:[/b]

But what IS certain can be proven beyond doubt by science and evidence.

[/QUOTE]
Definitely not true. Science can only eliminate currently existing possibilities to narrow down to one remaining possibility. But new possibilities can always be added, which leads to reassessment of a position, as Thomas Quinn so eloquently outlined in his last post.

One can write a Ph.D. thesis on the nature of truth and certainty.

[QUOTE]In which case, convince me that God is extremely likely and I will change my outlook[/QUOTE]
Belief is all about accepting something that you don't know to be truth. If someone convinced you to accept a proposition based on evidence, it would be a matter of truth, not belief. Religion isn't about evidence. It's about experience. Or being brainwashed early at a young age. Either way, you're clearly not open to it, so why would anyone bother? I can't even convince some people to like my favourite bands, never mind an invisible man in the sky !

If you don't dig religion, then great. With the odd exception, I don't either. But like it or not, a fair chunk of people in this world look for something bigger than themselves... although you may be happy to know that the percentage of people following organized religion continues to drop in favour of other spiritual paths (or lack thereof).

[QUOTE]In hindsight perhaps crap was the wrong word, and maybe a tad confrontational.[/QUOTE]
Cool, nice gesture to admit that. But it sure got a lot of responses - perhaps more than had you gone middle of the road !

[QUOTE]

[b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote: [/b] Atheism is just like religion, the same way that 1 is just like -1 in mathematics. Believing with all your heart that there is a god is very close to believing with all your heart that there is no god. The universe is inconceivably strange and complex. There is painfully little that is certain, and possibly even less that is impossible. Nobody ever knows "the Truth", and both the deeply religious and the rigid atheists are convinced that they do know the Truth, beyond a shadow of doubt. That means they are both wrong. We humans have no access to Truth, but we have something better - we can experience Wonder.[/QUOTE]

I have to challenge this. Atheism does not have anything to do with believing but all with scepticism. A religious person is supposed to believe with no proof while an atheist or non-believer refuses to believe with no proof. An atheist is not necessarily an evolutionist or other "explainer" of the world - an atheist simply says: "I do not believe in the existence of God because there is no evidence". If there wouldn't be atheism we would still live in the Middle Ages because enlightenment always happened against organised religion and not within religion: the abolition of slavery, democratic sructures, civil rights, equal rights for women, acceptance of homosexuals - all of these were accomplished AGAINST the rules and teachings of religion. Wherever religion has power civil rights are much less than in places where religion does not have that much power and influence.

I understand that many people have a deep desire to find comfort and hope in religious teachings and that is great. It's organised religion trying to set the rules for everybody who causes all the  problems.

[QUOTE] [b]YourValentine wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE]

[b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote: [/b] Atheism is just like religion, the same way that 1 is just like -1 in mathematics. Believing with all your heart that there is a god is very close to believing with all your heart that there is no god. The universe is inconceivably strange and complex. There is painfully little that is certain, and possibly even less that is impossible. Nobody ever knows "the Truth", and both the deeply religious and the rigid atheists are convinced that they do know the Truth, beyond a shadow of doubt. That means they are both wrong. We humans have no access to Truth, but we have something better - we can experience Wonder.[/QUOTE]

I have to challenge this. Atheism does not have anything to do with believing but all with scepticism. A religious person is supposed to believe with no proof while an atheist or non-believer refuses to believe with no proof. An atheist is not necessarily an evolutionist or other "explainer" of the world - an atheist simply says: "I do not believe in the existence of God because there is no evidence". If there wouldn't be atheism we would still live in the Middle Ages because enlightenment always happened against organised religion and not within religion: the abolition of slavery, democratic sructures, civil rights, equal rights for women, acceptance of homosexuals - all of these were accomplished AGAINST the rules and teachings of religion. Wherever religion has power civil rights are much less than in places where religion does not have that much power and influence.

I understand that many people have a deep desire to find comfort and hope in religious teachings and that is great. It's organised religion trying to set the rules for everybody who causes all the  problems.[/QUOTE]


I beg to differ strongly with you Barbara, and I agree with Caspar's on this one.

Atheism is about the absolute disbelief of any higher power. Any skepticism regarding the existence and non-existence of a Deist figure is considered Agnosticism.

Now, you mention that religion has been to blame for a lot of social oppression, and that is not necessarily true in all cases. For the most part religion has been manipulated in order to support social oppression. Governments and power figures understand that it's a powerful tool to manipulate societies that have a tendency to follow a particular religious doctrine. Sure religious itself has been intolerant and oppressive as well, but not in all cases.
Besides, Atheism under the command of a higher power if we take the Soviet Union as an example, has been nothing but another tool to oppress the masses.

I personally have no problem with organized religion as long as it exists by the means of organizing communities, and with no desire whatsoever of pushing government agendas for their own benefit and respect the beliefs of other citizens.

As far as Atheists go, I wholeheartedly support their rights and their desire to keep a government secular. However, I must point out that there seems to be this new wave of Atheism (coming mostly from Richard Dawkins followers) which is just as about as intolerant as most hardcore organized religions. Their doctrine is pretty much to reduce any person of faith to a low level of human intelligence, which I find absolutely hypocritical coming from the same people who constantly point fingers at religious people for being intolerant.

"An atheist is not necessarily an evolutionist"

But what else is there.., you may be confusing atheism with being agnostic, atheists want (demand?) answers, convincing ones, and will side with the most..erm.. logical and intellectual, the evolution argument is pretty compelling.

"Believing with all your heart that there is a god is very close to believing with all your heart that there is no god"

You are describing faith, you are dismissing the logical part of your brain. Actually think about the omnipresent sky man creating the universe.

"constantly point fingers at religious people for being intolerant."

That may be the case I admit. BUT.. I am happy to sit here and have my mind changed. Please, give me any reason to believe in god and I promise I will. Don't give me any stories about a child with a brain tumour pulling through and living to 90. God gave the kid the tumour in the first place.

Anyway.... its 3 and a half hours to 2013 so happy new year everyone. (2013 years since the birth of the main man!)

[QUOTE] [b]mooghead wrote:[/b]
That may be the case I admit. BUT.. I am happy to sit here and have my mind changed. Please, give me any reason to believe in god and I promise I will.[/QUOTE]

There shouldn't be a reason for any of us to do so. As someone mentioned here, making someone believe in God is like trying to make someone change their music taste. It shouldn't be forced upon you, and you should be the one allowed to open yourself to it.

As a person who is bordering between Agnosticism and taking bits and pieces of Christianism, Buddhism and other doctrines, all I can say is that it's interesting to find what other religious entities believe in. There are plenty of valuable theologies to be learned. You don't need to believe in all of it, just take whatever makes sense to you.

Personally even though I was raised a Christian, I can't completely believe whether Jesus is the son of God, or not. However, from the philosophical aspect of it, a lot of his teachings make a lot of sense to me. I have a lot of Christian friends who are very active in their church, and even though I don't share their views 100%, it's good to find a common ground. My family and I try to help them whenever there are charity drives to help those in need. So from that aspect is great to be focus on what unites us, rather than what divides us.