Atheism

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: The bloody irony of you trying to take the moral and intellectual high ground in a discussion where you have done nothing except come up with short flame-posts! Holly, if you had an ounce of decency, you'd be ashamed of yourself. Apparently, you don't even realize what a complete ass you make of yourself. You're free to disagree with Zeb, but if you dismiss his entire explanation of the point you were too lazy to be bothered reading with a thoroughly immature and superficial flame, you show yourself to be a sad little troll. I find GratefulFan's behaviour in this topic deeply disturbing and fanatical, but at least GratefulFan attempts a real discussion from time to time. You, Holly, are just trolling.

I am simply holding a mirror up to your behaviour. Those with limited self-awareness of their own moral, cultural or intellectual bias often blame the messenger.

And again, one slur, zero arguments. Why don't you point out where my schematic summary of your last post is wrong? I'd love to see you spinning your own words to get out of this one.

Holly2003 wrote:

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: The bloody irony of you trying to take the moral and intellectual high ground in a discussion where you have done nothing except come up with short flame-posts! Holly, if you had an ounce of decency, you'd be ashamed of yourself. Apparently, you don't even realize what a complete ass you make of yourself. You're free to disagree with Zeb, but if you dismiss his entire explanation of the point you were too lazy to be bothered reading with a thoroughly immature and superficial flame, you show yourself to be a sad little troll. I find GratefulFan's behaviour in this topic deeply disturbing and fanatical, but at least GratefulFan attempts a real discussion from time to time. You, Holly, are just trolling.

I am simply holding a mirror up to your behaviour. Those with limited self-awareness of their own moral, cultural or intellectual bias often blame the messenger.

You are doing no such thing. "Holding up a mirror" would require you to come up with arguments - you haven't, you've only been foul-mouthing and flaming.

Most of your time on Queenzone is spent abusing those you disagree with. Do you deny it?

In contrast, most of my time is spent taking the piss out of inflated buffoons like you. I'm surprised someone as smart as you claim to be would miss that. Of course, if you aren't as bright as you think you are, then it all becomes clear.

"logical contortions"

If you view what I was saying as any kind of contortion, I can only assume you're just being inflexible. Your prerogative.

Not much else to say to your subsequent posts (or TQ's) other than that the idea that I'm merely pissed with Christianity and not Islam and the rest is utterly silly. Out of my own laziness I'm not even sure if other religions have been brought into the thread (yet), so I didn't mention them.

Y'all keep saying things that don't apply to me (this 'Why Christianity and not the others?' thing is an example) so I'll have to play it safe and assume I keep getting someone else's mail here.

And again, a flame, no argument, no explanation, no content. You refuse to put your money where your mouth is by pointing out the supposed fallacies you're screaming about. In fact, you are pretty much admitting that you are actually a troll.

Furthermore, if you think "most of [my] time on Queenzone is spent abusing those disagree with", you evidently take an extremely selective sample of my posts. Of course, the irony of someone who has spent the last couple of pages of this discussion abusing everyone who disagrees with said person telling me that I spend all my time abusing others is entirely lost on you. The pathetic way in which you try to get me angry by questioning my intelligence is just further evidence of the depths to which you will sink.

You simplify every opposing position into either intellectual dishonesty, lack of intelligence or anti-Christianity. Now who's the intolerant bigot?

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: And again, a flame, no argument, no explanation, no content. You refuse to put your money where your mouth is by pointing out the supposed fallacies you're screaming about. In fact, you are pretty much admitting that you are actually a troll.

Furthermore, if you think "most of [my] time on Queenzone is spent abusing those disagree with", you evidently take an extremely selective sample of my posts. Of course, the irony of someone who has spent the last couple of pages of this discussion abusing everyone who disagrees with said person telling me that I spend all my time abusing others is entirely lost on you. The pathetic way in which you try to get me angry by questioning my intelligence is just further evidence of the depths to which you will sink.

You simplify every opposing position into either intellectual dishonesty, lack of intelligence or anti-Christianity. Now who's the intolerant bigot?

There's that lack of self-awareness on your part once again...

thomasquinn 32989 wrote:

And again, a flame, no argument, no explanation, no content. You refuse to put your money where your mouth is by pointing out the supposed fallacies you're screaming about. In fact, you are pretty much admitting that you are actually a troll.

There was plenty of content, you're just too consistently in a huff to climb over other people's points to absorb what's there. How many posts had to be spent toddling after you yesterday because your answer to Holly noting that the Cyprux Orthodox Church had some self interest in seeing the economy stabilize was a screed on their self interest? As an answer to his 'fallacious' argument? I can't count how many words I've spent over the years on various inaccuracies and incoherent ramblings with your username attached. In a conversation like this where people have to choose their engagements with some economy there is value in simply pointing out the absurdity of some things. Holly does that with accuracy and pith. You're a target because your general intellectual sloppiness invites it.

As has been the pattern here people seize a fragment of an argument they think they can beat and behave as if it's the whole of it. What people might or might not have said about Islam etc. does not negate the fact that Holly's observation that "some of you find it easy to fling casual abuse against Christianity and Christians, passing it off as rational debate." and "the way you express your ideas is unfriendly at best, and bigoted at worst." is bang on and indeed the heart of it all.

Karl Popper said that you can't know you had a prejudice until you get rid of it. One would think he'd read this thread. At least three or four of you are so completely blind to the irrationality of your statements and the obtuse ugliness of your positions that that has in turn blinded you to any counter position of virtually any degree. Holly's points don't make sense to you because you don't even understand the true nature of your own.

Zebonka12 wrote: "logical contortions"

If you view what I was saying as any kind of contortion, I can only assume you're just being inflexible. Your prerogative.

Not much else to say to your subsequent posts (or TQ's) other than that the idea that I'm merely pissed with Christianity and not Islam and the rest is utterly silly. Out of my own laziness I'm not even sure if other religions have been brought into the thread (yet), so I didn't mention them.

Y'all keep saying things that don't apply to me (this 'Why Christianity and not the others?' thing is an example) so I'll have to play it safe and assume I keep getting someone else's mail here.

Okay, let's say "self defense mechanism" rather than logical contortion. Using humour to say controversial things, then disowning them as "just a joke". It's a way of avoiding responsibilty for your views. Fair enough. But you can't then be taken seriously when you criticise others for making "off-colour" (perhaps) remarks. And you're right: it's not you I'm aiming at when I talk about the tone and content of their comments.

Zebonka12 wrote:

"pissing in the wind"

The wind doesn't always blow in the same direction.

I mean truly, I want to sit down and make some sense of this train wreck of a thread, but it would involve me having to sit down and actually read some of this crap again. All I can get is a strong whiff of some people trying to blame the ills of humanity on religion, and some other people saying 'no way, it's done all of these great things' - and an odd unwillingness to consider a mesh of the two.

From this one would think you hadn't even read them in the first place.

Zebonka12 wrote:
I don't really know if I've made it obvious enough as yet, but inasmuch as I don't buy GratefulFan's pitch on this topic, neither would I want to align myself wholly with TQ's.

My 'pitch' has always been this: stick to the facts, make a coherent argument and don't wallow in intellectual shallowness and prejudice. Not a tough buy in on almost any other topic. But to each his own.

Zebonka12 wrote:

Y'all keep saying things that don't apply to me (this 'Why Christianity and not the others?' thing is an example) so I'll have to play it safe and assume I keep getting someone else's mail here.

Zeb, I've found your posts in this thread to be well-considered, profound and balanced. That surprised me since I'm used to seeing one-liners from you. Sadly, the responses that seem directed to someone else - the contorting of your words and meaning - are just a symptom of this thread and have been happening since the early pages. I think when people come into a discussion believing their way is the right way for everyone, anyone who shows an opposing perspective - for whatever reason - is attacked. I, for one, am glad you've posted these comments, and I have found them to be quite grounding.

TQ, to paraphrase Panchgani's comment to GF - don't waste your time arguing. We've been doing that for 16 pages now and the responses have been filled with rage, hysteria, insults, fictitious identities and purposeful twists of perceptions. In other words, anything to get off topic, which is what the personal attacks are about. Distraction. You're better than that. The "unholy trinity" (that is Bob, you and me, apparently) is better than that. So are our points. It's wasted energy to hope the other side will see that.

"Using humour to say controversial things, then disowning them as "just a joke"."

I'm a little confused here. For one thing, I'm not trying to be funny when I say that while I don't claim to be a yardstick for certain standards, I can recognise them in others and that it does shit me when I see people flagrantly employing double standards. I guess it sort of boils down to - I don't really care if you're a great person or a shitty one, but if you're going to sell yourself as one thing then you might as well fucking live up to it.

I dunno. I sell myself as a turd; people are rarely disappointed, and occasionally they get a pleasant surprise.

"But you can't then be taken seriously when you criticise others for making "off-colour" (perhaps) remarks"

Forgoing the possibility of offence (like I said, it did not offend me) the Special Olympics thing was (and always has been) the laziest and most irrelevant basis for comparison that people go to. It's nonsense to even bring it up.

"From this one would think you hadn't even read them in the first place"

Hey, ditto - I've said a lot of good shit in this thread and people are only quoting my sarcasm! I want a refund.

Panchgani wrote:

GF -

MHO ...

The "Unholy Trinity" (GH, TQ & FM) are not worthy of your attention. Trying to rationally discuss a moderate opinion on QZ is like pissing in the wind. Please do yourself a favor and ignore them. A fight against willful ignorance is futile.

I know you're right. And yet it's hard to abandon because of the wrongness and ugliness and frankly the subterfuge. It's not rational in the face of the reality, but the desire to drag the prejudice into the light and have it exposed and have people be responsible for their words that on any other topic would have been shouted down a hundred times over by a hundred people is strong on both personal and principled levels. But the truth is likely that anybody who can see this for what it is already sees it without me or anyone else, and anybody who doesn't can't be brought there with a thousand posts.

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:

Zeb, I've found your posts in this thread to be well-considered, profound and balanced.

That's because you're an anti-religous bigot. Zebonka is an intelligent man and a jewel in the QZ crown, but his posts on this thread have been in my view average, imperceptive of what has gone before and more than a little wandering. In reality any superficial treatment of faith based on a negative opinion whose strength is inversely proportional to any real experience with the actuality of it would please your bigoted mind.