Atheism

[QUOTE] [b]Zebonka12 wrote:[/b]

*shrug* Makes sense to me!

I probably didn't bring it up in this thread but we've had these religious topics on QZ before, and I've said it at least once - I've had some pretty full-on Christians for friends, and our conflicting ideas never stopped us from getting on. One of them knew how I felt about establishments, and was a little touchy about it, but she got it all the same. I mean I could've given her shit for her feelings about evolution, but honestly - why bother?

On a person to person level, I haven't really got any axe to grind with this stuff. I keep hammering on this drum, but it seems some of us do get mixed up between jabs at the higher levels of the establishment vs. some kind of mean-spirited attack on people's feelings about spooky stuff. You might call it attrition, although I'd be happy if we could go without it. If I haven't made that clear enough yet, then my bad. But for me, the two really are separate discussions, and if I wandered into the wrong one here, then again - my bad.[/QUOTE]


I didn't take that from your posts. The only part of my rambly post that was in response to yours was the end bit where i said that i agree with you.
And tbh, all the accusations of venom, etc etc -- you make non-pc jokes sometimes, but i don't remember ever seeing you be vicious or 'mean' to a person. It's usually pretty obvious that you have a problem with an issue, not an individual.
And incidentally, you said you sell yourself as a turd -- you are definately anything but that. You're not pretentious, but you're totally sound. :D

[QUOTE] [b]catqueen wrote:[/b]

That probably makes no sense :/ Not v coherent today...[/QUOTE]

It did make sense, catqueen. And I’m happy to know you found a happy welcoming church after leaving the strict harsh one to which you had once belonged. I think yours is a beautiful example of how someone’s faith can be so much a part of who they are yet not overshadow the fact that others will/can/do feel differently.

[QUOTE] [b]catqueen wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]catqueen wrote:[/b]


I think saying that 'the church is corrupt, therefore there is no God,' 'the church is corrupt so i won't have anything to do with God' or similar is unfair. It's tragic that so much of the church is corrupt, it's wrong -- maybe evil -- that there is so much wrong with the church. But that in itself is not an argument for or against the existence of God.[/QUOTE]

Just to be clear here: I don't think anyone in this discussion apart from the topic starter is talking about whether or not there is a god, and I certainly don't think there are many here who would not allow other people to believe. [/QUOTE]


That is fair enough -- and maybe i'm over sensitive.o But a lot of people that i've met don't want to consider whether or not they believe in God because they have experienced so much pain at the hands of religious people. And i do think that's sad. So it is important to me to separate the two.
[/QUOTE]

Well, I completely agree with you there. As for pain experienced at the hands of religious people: I live in a bible belt region, and in my work I encounter quite a number of ultra-rthodox religious people. Most of them are quite civil and tolerant, yet the religious political party that claims to represent them does all it can to make life hard on anyone who isn't part of their little club. For instance, they actively seek to make it impossible for *any* event to take place on Sundays, because it would violate their right to rest on the sabbath day - even when said events are located several miles from the nearest church and far from residential areas. Do I think the orthodox religious people are evil because of that? No, I don't. My firsthand experience shows me that most of the people who attend the church and vote for the party don't hold such views. But I certainly do think the political party claiming to represent them is evil, as is the power-structure in the church that keeps trying to persecute those who hold different views from theirs. What is really disturbing to me is that these people are indoctrinated to support those leaders despite the fact that they don't support their policies.

Policies/views.. all irrelevant..... everyone is entitled to them, still looking to be convinced by the god thing

I love looking round churches and cathedrals.. they are amazing buildings...

Anyone got god to flash in front of my eyes yet?


Getting tired of waiting.....

[QUOTE]

[b]mooghead wrote: [/b] Policies/views.. all irrelevant..... everyone is entitled to them, still looking to be convinced by the god thing

I love looking round churches and cathedrals.. they are amazing buildings...

Anyone got god to flash in front of my eyes yet?

Getting tired of waiting.....

[/QUOTE]

He's on Facebook.

Well, I completely agree with you there. As for pain experienced at the hands of religious people: I live in a bible belt region, and in my work I encounter quite a number of ultra-rthodox religious people. Most of them are quite civil and tolerant, yet the religious political party that claims to represent them does all it can to make life hard on anyone who isn't part of their little club. For instance, they actively seek to make it impossible for *any* event to take place on Sundays, because it would violate their right to rest on the sabbath day - even when said events are located several miles from the nearest church and far from residential areas. Do I think the orthodox religious people are evil because of that? No, I don't. My firsthand experience shows me that most of the people who attend the church and vote for the party don't hold such views. But I certainly do think the political party claiming to represent them is evil, as is the power-structure in the church that keeps trying to persecute those who hold different views from theirs. What is really disturbing to me is that these people are indoctrinated to support those leaders despite the fact that they don't support their policies.[/QUOTE]

That's insane! I don't understand how that kind of stuff can be justified from the Bible. It's simply not there. Although in the church i grew up in, they didn't believe in buying anything or eating out or anything that involved money or work on a sunday. (Unless it was cooking huge meals for crowds of people and cleaning up after it, which is fine if you're a woman!) But you couldn't cut the grass in front of your house on a sunday, and they would be offended if you bought something, as that requires other people to work on a sunday. But at least they didn't interfere with other people's sundays -- i don't understand the logic of not allowing activities, there's no basis for that in the Bible, unless you follow Old Testament laws for Jews or something.
And i guess it's typical of anyone with an extremely strong view on certain issues to vote in favour of those issues, no matter what the other issues may be involved are. You can see the same with pro-life and pro-choice people -- they often follow that issue and ignore the many other issues that the person they are voting for/supporting may be involved in.

[QUOTE] [b]catqueen wrote:[/b]


Well, I completely agree with you there. As for pain experienced at the hands of religious people: I live in a bible belt region, and in my work I encounter quite a number of ultra-rthodox religious people. Most of them are quite civil and tolerant, yet the religious political party that claims to represent them does all it can to make life hard on anyone who isn't part of their little club. For instance, they actively seek to make it impossible for *any* event to take place on Sundays, because it would violate their right to rest on the sabbath day - even when said events are located several miles from the nearest church and far from residential areas. Do I think the orthodox religious people are evil because of that? No, I don't. My firsthand experience shows me that most of the people who attend the church and vote for the party don't hold such views. But I certainly do think the political party claiming to represent them is evil, as is the power-structure in the church that keeps trying to persecute those who hold different views from theirs. What is really disturbing to me is that these people are indoctrinated to support those leaders despite the fact that they don't support their policies.[/QUOTE]

That's insane! I don't understand how that kind of stuff can be justified from the Bible. It's simply not there. Although in the church i grew up in, they didn't believe in buying anything or eating out or anything that involved money or work on a sunday. (Unless it was cooking huge meals for crowds of people and cleaning up after it, which is fine if you're a woman!) But you couldn't cut the grass in front of your house on a sunday, and they would be offended if you bought something, as that requires other people to work on a sunday. But at least they didn't interfere with other people's sundays -- i don't understand the logic of not allowing activities, there's no basis for that in the Bible, unless you follow Old Testament laws for Jews or something.
And i guess it's typical of anyone with an extremely strong view on certain issues to vote in favour of those issues, no matter what the other issues may be involved are. You can see the same with pro-life and pro-choice people -- they often follow that issue and ignore the many other issues that the person they are voting for/supporting may be involved in.[/QUOTE]

Argh, the start of my post was a quote, but i accidently deleted who it was from.

[QUOTE] [b]mooghead wrote:[/b]

Policies/views.. all irrelevant..... everyone is entitled to them, still looking to be convinced by the god thing

I love looking round churches and cathedrals.. they are amazing buildings...

Anyone got god to flash in front of my eyes yet?


Getting tired of waiting.....

[/QUOTE]


Wish i could -- i always believed in God, i don't think i could stop. And while i was raised to believe, i was raised to do/believe a lot of stuff that i discarded, so it's not just because of that. I wish i could give a clear, logical argument though -- but all i can say is that i know he's real, and has changed my life. And i can see other people who's lives have been changed, sometimes literally overnight. I've seen people be dramatically cured of things that i really don't think were just flukes. And it makes sense to me -- if you take the full Bible in context, i feel that it does explain a lot about the world and why we are in the state we're in. But none of that is logical, argue-able or convincing!

[QUOTE] [b]magicalfreddiemercury wrote:[/b]

It did make sense, catqueen. And I’m happy to know you found a happy welcoming church after leaving the strict harsh one to which you had once belonged. I think yours is a beautiful example of how someone’s faith can be so much a part of who they are yet not overshadow the fact that others will/can/do feel differently.
[/QUOTE]

And just when I thought you'd run out of ways to make me ill on this topic. Why don't you take a moment to explain to catqueen how her faith is a crutch? And perhaps a moment to explain to me why Catholicism should be overshadowed by your unprincipled willingness to drag around unjust characterizations of a Pope's words on AIDS in Africa for example, or subjected to inane stabs at the dearth of 'higher intelligence' back though hundreds of years such leaders.

Nobody who has been remotely paying attention thinks you have a single ounce of respect or regard for anybody's religious practice. Please. This entire thread has been an exercise in watching the masks slowly slip off a couple of bigots. Nice try on the tolerant long suffering reasonableness, but but your hair is a mess, your shirt is on backwards and you've got lipstick smeared down to your chin. My last internal defense of you on this topic was that you at least had the courage of your distasteful convictions.

I'll light a candle.

[QUOTE] [b]mooghead wrote:[/b]

Policies/views.. all irrelevant..... everyone is entitled to them, still looking to be convinced by the god thing

I love looking round churches and cathedrals.. they are amazing buildings...

Anyone got god to flash in front of my eyes yet?


Getting tired of waiting.....

[/QUOTE]

He plays right wing for the Ottawa Senators. You think organized religion is bad, wait until you check out organized hockey!

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]

What is really disturbing to me is that these people are indoctrinated to support those leaders despite the fact that they don't support their policies.[/QUOTE]

Indoctrinated huh? Very moderate view Thomas. In my experience a mismatch between the policies or beliefs of a political or religious group and their respective constituents is resolved either by leaving the group for another or by a rational weighing of the ratio between resonant and non-resonant principles that concludes that it's still a better fit to stay than to go. The majority of first world Catholics support gay marriage and the gleeful use of birth control for example, but remain in the faith and otherwise support the leadership where appropriate. It's nothing to do with 'indoctrination'.

A example close to home might be that Queenzone has terrible moderation practices and at any given time two or three lunatics are on the loose (<- that may be tempting to certain bigots who occasionally engage in truly painful attempts at humour, but don't...even I'd rather watch you dance in the ocean than embarrass yourselves in that uniquely agonizing way). Do I agree with the approach? Not really. Am I indoctrinated? Absolutely not. I'm here because on balance I'd rather be than not.

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b] I don't like bishops writing letters to their flock telling them not to use condoms because they will give you AIDS.[/QUOTE] As I've already explained, at great multi-paragraph length, the implication of that is simply not true. It's not. It's a handy misrepresentation of facts that allows weak minded liberals who should know better to wallow in their self-affirming version of anti-Semitism. Why would you volunteer to be such a risible moron? Google hard and google often. "The door of a[n apprentice] bigot's mind opens outwards so that the only result of the pressure of facts upon it is to close it more snugly.” -Ogden Nash

[QUOTE] [b]Zebonka12 wrote:[/b]

Yeah, I didn't take it as venom. But I think I've already answered to the charge of being vague about all of this - it's a matter of time for me. I want to sit down and get specific and trawl for old links that I found interesting, but I keep getting distracted by other shit I'm supposed to be doing. So there's that. I think I now know how it feels to try and quit smoking.[/QUOTE]

It's not vagueness I'm complaining about Zebonka, it's the unthinking adoption of the language and attitudes of stereotyping and prejudice. It's become so acceptable and normalized on this topic in the public space that it's become invisible. It's led you twice for example to suggest razing the Vatican. That's an extraordinary proposal that should require an extraordinary argument. At some point, as Issac Hayes noted, satire ends and bigotry and discrimination begins. I do think you're a moderate and reasonable man but you're holding yourself to an incredibly poor standard on this topic.

[QUOTE] [b]catqueen wrote:[/b]

And i guess it's typical of anyone with an extremely strong view on certain issues to vote in favour of those issues, no matter what the other issues may be involved are. You can see the same with pro-life and pro-choice people -- they often follow that issue and ignore the many other issues that the person they are voting for/supporting may be involved in.

[/QUOTE]

This is a huge issue here in the US – with the press and public often directly questioning a candidate’s view on the issue of abortion as a way to determine whether they’re qualified to go on to become a party’s nominee.

Former NYC Mayor Rudy Giuliani is a roman catholic and he ran for president in 2008. During his campaign, he was pummeled with questions about his stance on abortion (he is pro-choice) with people unable to come to grips with the notion that a man whose religion did not permit abortions would not aggressively fight to outlaw them. His position was that his religion was separate from the law of the land and while he was personally against abortion, he knew his religious views had no place in legislation. He’s one of the rare few (only?) Republican candidates to be so outspoken about that. His campaign did not go very far and it was mainly due to the abortion issue.

So there are definitely those who feel that what they believe – that is, their personally held religious beliefs, including those TQ mentioned – should be/must be followed by everyone else. In that case, that one issue is the most telling for them, and they will feel justified in excluding consideration of a candidate’s stance on all others.

Well first of all, the Vatican is of enough historical significance that it'd be worth saving no matter where religion winds up in years to come - but if I had to be completely honest, I wouldn't miss it. The Library of Alexandria got toasted, but we're all still here ticking along. The Taliban blew up those awesome Bhudda statues - we're all still here. I had to know a couple of previously living (and currently dead) people to understand that we lose a lot more when a person dies than we do when we knock a building over. And I'd be hard pressed to say that about a location that interests me on a personal level (like Abbey Road or the studio where they filmed Thomas the Tank Engine in the 80's) but ... yeah. I dunno. Maybe it's the sort of thing you're only supposed to think once you've survived a housefire, but I don't want to have to experience something so drastic in order to get my priorities right. And I don't think it'd take a literal razing of the Vatican for the faithful to understand that it is just a place, that Churches are just a place (however beautiful and historic) and priests are just people - and like all people, they stand as examples of both ends of what people are like.

On a personal note, I wouldn't be in a rush to cite Isaac Hayes - the man was remarkably one-eyed on who it was okay to make fun of. Well - either that, or he suffered in silence for a very long time, in which case I take that back. Haha.

"the unthinking adoption of the language and attitudes of stereotyping and prejudice"

Meeeeeh ... I guess I can see why it would look like that, but if one big problem of mine is a failure to get specific, the other one might be that I tend to wander in and out of seriousness. And it's not a 'you have to be there to get my tone of voice' deal, either. I was talking to my sister the other day about women and thought I'd make a joke about an ex from 3 years ago, so I said "I think she's with the guy just to make me jealous". I thought it was hilarious and would draw a big laugh. She just looked at me like I was truly insane, and I had to explain to her that I was just deadpanning.

I don't even know. Like I may have intimated before, we can't afford to have any institution beyond reproach - they need to be held to account. We've got this right prick of an cardinal in Australia, and it may be that I stand unfairly soured on them because of it. On balance maybe things are peachier in the world at large, but my main impression of this institution (and many others) is 'we can do better'. If they want to stay relevant then they should spend less time setting up the Pope's Twitter account and more time weeding out the nuggets of irrelevancy from their message. Instead of giving religious people a hard time for believing, I think certain smartarses would better spend their time in going after religious leaders to simply come out and say 'Yay gay marriage' - not because I have a dog in that fight either, but because I've never heard a single good reason that it shouldn't be allowed. Other than Elton John.