Atheism

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]

For fuck's sake - it seriously saddens me to see you stoop so low, to actually become an internet troll. I had such hope for you.

Point me to the post where MFM (or anyone, for that matter) said all adherents of every religion use it at a crutch.

Write a book. Do something useful. You have the intellect. Maybe then you'll stop trolling people in your spare time and make better use of it.[/QUOTE]

Stop moving the goalposts. I didn't suggest that she tell catqueen that she'd said "all adherents of every religion use it at a crutch". More bigot shell games. If you'd all take responsibility for the actuality of your narrow and obnoxious positions it would all be a lot less insidious and infuriating.

[QUOTE] [b]magicalfreddiemercury wrote:[/b]
I not only talk to people, but I have also been on both sides of the religious wall. There are many like myself who see religion as a crutch. And there are many, like my parents and others, who see it as a lifeline.
[/QUOTE]

...to which I replied

[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]
Your language is that of contempt. Religion as a "distraction", a "crutch" etc. God distilled to someone to arbitrarily "curse or thank". Frankly such broad statements demonstrate significant ignorance of experiences outside your own and those of the similarly experienced and like minded.
[/QUOTE]

...to which you replied

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]
It absolutely is a distraction and a crutch. It is a reason to stop searching for ultimate truth because you believe you have found it in a nice prepackaged entity that costs $10-20 once a week in a collection plate
[/QUOTE]

Why is god making us all fall out?

God doesn't make anyone do anything. We have free will. Only a few here are "falling out". Not "all" are "falling out". The same ones who are arguing here also argue with each other in other threads sometimes.

[QUOTE] [b] magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/b]
I not only talk to people, but I have also been on both sides of the religious wall. There are many like myself who see religion as a crutch. And there are many, like my parents and others, who see it as a lifeline.

[/QUOTE]

When things go crazy, when there is no ‘reason’, the faithful see it as the ‘will of god’. The other day, the news was playing and replaying scenes showing the Boston Marathon explosions, with people crying, bleeding and running in every direction. One cameraman zoomed in on a terrified woman, trembling violently while on her knees, hands clasped and raised in front of her face, clearly praying aloud through her tears. No one knows how they’ll react in a moment of such tremendous horror, but if that woman hadn’t been raised with religion, if that were not part of her core beliefs, she would not have dropped to her knees in the middle of it all to pray for whatever she was praying for in the aftermath. She, most likely, would have run to help someone or run for cover. Either would have been the proactive response.

[QUOTE] [b] The Real Wizard wrote: [/b]
It absolutely is a distraction and a crutch. It is a reason to stop searching for ultimate truth…

[/QUOTE]

I have no idea why I didn’t see this until now, or maybe I did and don’t remember, but I agree completely. If it’s already there, why look any further? It’s also a reason/excuse to avoid personal responsibility. Like the conversation about the pope and condoms. First, to the horror of the medical community, he insisted it was sinful to use them then he changed his position and said, basically, that it was a lesser evil for homosexual men to use them… he said to do so would be a first step toward homosexuals accepting moral and sexual responsibility. Only when asked to clarify his comments, did he include permission for heterosexual couples to use them, thus finally acknowledging the benefit of condoms and allowing their use when the safety of a partner was at stake. One can only wonder what it will take for people to simply accept such personal responsibility before being ‘allowed’ to do so.

(for anyone interested, the article/blog discussing the above can be found here - http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-11-23-pope-condoms_N.htm)

You know, this thread has been long and grueling, but it’s also been fascinating – for me at least. I’d shed pounds of soul-sucking fear associated with faith a long time ago but didn’t realize how free I was, or how comfortable I was with my own position about religion, until voicing it here. A couple pages back, I had my own little epiphany. I was responding to one of the many obnoxious posts directed toward me when I realized I didn’t care. I really, to my bones, did not care. None of it mattered. I didn’t feel the terror I’d always known or that feeling of doom I used to feel if I even entertained a non-pious thought. There I was, sitting back waiting for it, and it never came. I can’t express how freeing it was to acknowledge that lack of paralyzing anxiety after being only vaguely aware of it – maybe fearfully aware of it.

If I’d been raised in awe of some higher being, instead of in terror of it, things might be different for me today. Who knows? I could now be like catqueen – comfortable enough in faith that I could separate my own truth from the bullshit some radical church spews to its congregation. But that’s not how it was and so I stand by comments I’ve made on these pages – except one set of them where I said god/religion has a ‘life’. I knew what I was trying to say there but didn’t articulate it as well as I could/should have.

So Mooghead, to your question, which started this thread –

[QUOTE] [b] mooghead wrote: [/b] This might be lighting the touchpaper but surely none of the highly intelligent people who frequent this website actually believe in all that god crap?

[/QUOTE]

After all these pages and all the reflection, I still can’t answer it definitively. I guess, by default, that means I’m not an atheist.

If there isn’t a god, then only half my life was wasted worrying about some non-existent wrath. If there is a god, a being that created the earth, moon, stars, us and everything we’ve yet to discover, then how arrogant and foolish it would be of me to assume I know what s/he expects of me. I’d rather take a proactive approach to life than drop to my knees in prayer. I’ve done both. The latter no longer makes sense to me. And I’m not afraid to say that.

Wait a minute….

Nope. Not afraid.

[QUOTE] [b]Donna13 wrote:[/b]

God doesn't make anyone do anything. We have free will. Only a few here are "falling out". Not "all" are "falling out". The same ones who are arguing here also argue with each other in other threads sometimes.[/QUOTE]

^^ Yup!

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]

Are you really so desperate to spit venom at people whose views are not your own that you will resort to doing so when it's completely out of context?[/QUOTE]

I have sufficient faith in Zebonka's intelligence that he'll understand that it's completely in context and hardly venomous. You, not so much.[/QUOTE]

Do you honestly fail to understand what you yourself write? God, I've had it with you. I'm going to take the above advise and stop wasting time on you.[/QUOTE]

No, don't give up !

"You and bigot #2 seriously make me sick down to my toes and you can be assured that every drop of anger and disgust comes from that place and nowhere else."

^ why give up when there's a chance at making this comment even better?[/QUOTE]

Considering the depths of manipulation to which GF will sink to make other people's posts fit her desperate desire to be persecuted, the foul accusations and the outright extremism of her position, any insult from GF is probably a compliment, you're right there.

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]magicalfreddiemercury wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]

Yeah, and unfounded accusations of anti-Semitism have nothing to do with that, of course...

[/QUOTE]

Oh tsk, tsk, TQ. Didn't you know? The spewing of such slanderous insults is permitted from one side only. Those on the other side must not respond in kind but must, instead, take their lumps without retort lest they be deemed created of some lesser moral fabric.

[/QUOTE]

Stop being a bigot and you won't have to worry about having your distasteful and shameful behaviour outed. And seriously, taking intellectual succor from ThomasQuinn is the QZ version of failing an IQ test.[/QUOTE]

If you don't like the guy, that's fine (well it isn't, since anyone of sane mind can't possibly find anything not to like). But please, don't let it cloud your judgement to the point of looking like a complete idiot.

He is the absolute finest investigative historian Queenzone (and likely almost any other forum you've ever read) has to offer.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the compliment ^.^

I'm not the world's greatest historian or anything like that, but I am fairly sure I know how to do my job, which is comparing and analyzing sources. It's pretty ironic that GF accuses me of selective reading and intellectual incompetence when you consider how extremely selective, not to mention biased, the sources she provides are.

[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b] [QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b] This is truly pathetic, as pathetic as all the cheap jabs at me you tried to make in your later posts. Maybe, if you had a little knowledge of history, you'd be aware that anti-Semitism is the hatred of Jews. Not of rabbi's, of Jewish theology or of Jewish institutions, but the complete, total, wholesale hatred of every single Jewish man, woman or child. If you will compare severe criticism of the Vatican (i.e. catholic leadership and institutions) with that, you have not an ounce of decency. You are so desperate to be persecuted that you will abuse anything to make yourself look like a poor victim. [/QUOTE] Funny that you should formulate these precise lame excuses. I previously mentioned a book called The New Anti-Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice. Thoughtful, balanced and well received [/QUOTE] You don't even have to look much further than his Wikipedia page to get a good sense of what you are dealing with in the person of Philip Jenkins. He's a professor at Baylor University (a private Baptist university (completely neutral and completely free from a pro-Christian bias, of course...) with average rankings), and "Jenkins is a contributing editor for The American Conservative and writes a monthly column for The Christian Century. He has also written articles for Christianity Today, First Things, and The Atlantic." And that's your sole source for calling people anti-Semites (which in itself is a completely slanted comparison for anti-Catholicism even where it exists, for reasons I explained above that even you should be able to grasp)? A conservative Catholic-turned-Episcopalian? Excuse me for not being impressed by your source. As a comparison: I wouldn't exactly be impressed if Jefferson Davis told me I was anti-American for my dislike of the Confederacy either.

[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]

If you don't like the guy, that's fine (well it isn't, since anyone of sane mind can't possibly find anything not to like). But please, don't let it cloud your judgement to the point of looking like a complete idiot.

He is the absolute finest investigative historian Queenzone (and likely almost any other forum you've ever read) has to offer.[/QUOTE]

Good Christ Bob. Maybe if history's most pressing question was who forgot to wrap the cheese after the Theodore Roosevelt American History Award ceremony. I can't even count the clean ups in fact and reason that have been required over the years once TQ winds up. It's nothing to do with liking or not liking, it's just the way it is.

I'd suggest you confine your comedy to pasting George Carlin links. There's a certain meta humour to venerating a dead guy because he makes makes fun of the Jesus lovers.[/QUOTE]

Considering what you consider to be good sources, I can only take this as a compliment. You wouldn't last a term in a serious history course. For a start, you are completely oblivious (or you aren't but try to keep your readers so) of the background, biases and position of your sources. If it gets good reviews, it's a trustworthy source? Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]magicalfreddiemercury wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]

This may be the best ever thread at this website.

And it led to the crowning of the three greatest posters in the history of Queenzone. Let us all rejoice.

Preferably in a non-theistic way. [/QUOTE]

Our crowning ceremony should include not just crowns but the entire ensemble.


[/QUOTE]

TQ! Are you going to take this crap? I think bigot #2 just called you a bigot! If you want to explain to her that a bigot cheerleader and enabler is not exactly the same as a fully pledged bigot I'll totally have your back.[/QUOTE]

About a page ago, I was a raving, drooling anti-Semite Catholic-hater, and now I'm not a bigot because it suddenly doesn't fit your agenda anymore? Seriously, the way you spin in this topic makes FOX News look, well...fair and balanced.

[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]

For fuck's sake - it seriously saddens me to see you stoop so low, to actually become an internet troll. I had such hope for you.

Point me to the post where MFM (or anyone, for that matter) said all adherents of every religion use it at a crutch.

Write a book. Do something useful. You have the intellect. Maybe then you'll stop trolling people in your spare time and make better use of it.[/QUOTE]

Stop moving the goalposts. I didn't suggest that she tell catqueen that she'd said "all adherents of every religion use it at a crutch". More bigot shell games. If you'd all take responsibility for the actuality of your narrow and obnoxious positions it would all be a lot less insidious and infuriating.

[QUOTE] [b]magicalfreddiemercury wrote:[/b]
I not only talk to people, but I have also been on both sides of the religious wall. There are many like myself who see religion as a crutch. And there are many, like my parents and others, who see it as a lifeline.
[/QUOTE]

...to which I replied

[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]
Your language is that of contempt. Religion as a "distraction", a "crutch" etc. God distilled to someone to arbitrarily "curse or thank". Frankly such broad statements demonstrate significant ignorance of experiences outside your own and those of the similarly experienced and like minded.
[/QUOTE]

...to which you replied

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]
It absolutely is a distraction and a crutch. It is a reason to stop searching for ultimate truth because you believe you have found it in a nice prepackaged entity that costs $10-20 once a week in a collection plate
[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]

So, what you are actually saying is:

When you quote something that contradicts anything GF says, it's taking it out of context, cherry picking and being too stupid to understand anything more complex than Where's Wally, while, on the other hand, when GF needs to support something, any quote dragged out of context and selectively interpreted amounts to ironclad evidence.

Sorry GF, you're not getting that TR-award just yet.

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b] [QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b] Funny that you should formulate these precise lame excuses. I previously mentioned a book called The New Anti-Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice. Thoughtful, balanced and well received [/QUOTE] You don't even have to look much further than his Wikipedia page[/QUOTE] And I'm sure you didn't. Nice ad hominem. Read the book.

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]magicalfreddiemercury wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]

This may be the best ever thread at this website.

And it led to the crowning of the three greatest posters in the history of Queenzone. Let us all rejoice.

Preferably in a non-theistic way. [/QUOTE]

Our crowning ceremony should include not just crowns but the entire ensemble.


[/QUOTE]

TQ! Are you going to take this crap? I think bigot #2 just called you a bigot! If you want to explain to her that a bigot cheerleader and enabler is not exactly the same as a fully pledged bigot I'll totally have your back.[/QUOTE]

About a page ago, I was a raving, drooling anti-Semite Catholic-hater, and now I'm not a bigot because it suddenly doesn't fit your agenda anymore? Seriously, the way you spin in this topic makes FOX News look, well...fair and balanced.[/QUOTE]

I never called you a bigot. I called you a bigot cheerleader and I believe you make careless, anti-Catholic statements out of a general intolerance, general intellectual sloppiness and a misguided idea of liberalism. There's never been a bigot #3 in my posts, has there. Another clean up in aisle four when Thomas starts to think.

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]

So, what you are actually saying is:

When you quote something that contradicts anything GF says, it's taking it out of context, cherry picking and being too stupid to understand anything more complex than Where's Wally, while, on the other hand, when GF needs to support something, any quote dragged out of context and selectively interpreted amounts to ironclad evidence.

Sorry GF, you're not getting that TR-award just yet.[/QUOTE]

That was not out of context at all, was from a single conversation in mid January and flowed absolutely fairly as typed. Try to think for yourself instead of for your bigot friends Thomas.