Atheism

Wow, I just spent an hour of my life responding to people's thoughts on religion.

Let's call a spade a spade...

We're all adults, and the fundamental functions of our minds are wired pretty strongly. Bottom line - some of us accept things without evidence, and some of us don't.

I don't think anyone can assert that those who accept propositions without evidence have underdeveloped minds, but as an armchair somewhat-expert in neuroscience, I can state with conviction that their minds have developed differently.

How much are we listening to others vs. writing our established thoughts ? What are we actually trying to accomplish here? At best we can have a bit of a better understanding of where we are all coming from, but it's very unlikely any of us are going to walk away having adopted the thoughts or ideas of someone else here.

If we were talking about music, sports or social issues, there is always an opportunity for someone to be tangibly proven right or wrong, but on this topic, there really isn't.

So is the end gain worth the time invested ?

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]


But as GF already pointed out, the part that caused the controversy was the "Our heavenly father" at the beginning and the "Amen" at the end.

But by turning it into a religious statement, it carries the implication that one philosophy (that there is a heavenly father) is to be adhered to above all other philosophies. [/QUOTE]

Really??? Does it really imply that one particular religion (or philosophy) is the ONLY legitimite religion (or philosophy).

It is overkill to have the baby (the statement) thrown out with the 4 words of bathwater (my heavenly father & amen).

On the other hand, "One Nation under God" and "In God We Trust" implies that I am not a "legitimite" American, because I do not trust in a god that "lords" over me.

[QUOTE] [b]Panchgani wrote:[/b]

Really??? Does it really imply that one particular religion (or philosophy) is the ONLY legitimite religion (or philosophy).[/QUOTE]
Well, yes and no. It is one idea, but it can branch off into any number of ways as there are thousands of religions that have adhered to some kind of idea of a heavenly father. Either way, it certainly does exclude a lot of people. The prayer without those four words, however, would exclude nobody.

[QUOTE]It is overkill to have the baby (the statement) thrown out with the 4 words of bathwater (my heavenly father & amen).[/QUOTE]
Absolutely it is. And the school has the choice to put up the prayer without the religious words, and they haven't. Sour grapes?

[QUOTE]On the other hand, "One Nation under God" and "In God We Trust" implies that I am not a "legitimite" American, because I do not trust in a god that "lords" over me. [/QUOTE]
If that doesn't bother you, that's cool. But it definitely bothers a lot of people.

[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]

Waunakonor's post on your "lie" does give me some solace that I'm not a complete failure at communicating, but I do see that my choice of words reasonably led to you to think I was accusing you of dishonesty. I wasn't. I'm sorry that it came across that way.

I'm not of course asking for "proof of your experiences", I'm asking you to feel some responsibility for reasonably supporting specific arguments that arbitrarily diminish things that are important and meaningful to other people. It's clear by now you're not prepared to do so. As you say there is little left for me to do but draw my conclusions. This is a topic that allows you to get away with that with your peers here, but the truth is that if your language, tone and attitudes were applied to a matter like race rather than religion it would feel quite different to people. Honestly I feel sorrow for you, both for the destructive experiences you had with religion and some aspects of what you've done with them. Your avoidant replies to me are intended to relay something like dignity and grace I think, but what they are to me is small.

PS. "Not surprisingly" Really MFM? [/QUOTE]

What you either cannot see or simply refuse to see or acknowledge is that I have not tried to ‘get away’ with anything here. I have tried to share a personal view of a controversial issue that is only growing in its controversy. I have not sought avoidance, rather I have repeatedly pointed to personal experiences and the perceptions I have developed because of them. I do not, however, live in a bubble. I see how others express or live in faith. While comparatively few are fanatical, I still find the practice a distraction. Yet in nearly all of my posts here, I have stated that what others believe is up to them. I said I see religion as a crutch, but in the same sentence, I said my family and others see it as a lifeline. I acknowledge that. I accept that - for them. I would not stop them from believing as they do any more than I would allow them to stop me from not believing.

Despite all of that, you have twisted the meaning and intention behind my comments, calling them contempt-based and narrow. You have referred to my experiences as self-serving and ‘suspect’. You have dismissed my comments of acceptance by saying “Other people have different experiences that hold no more or less value than yours, and have no more or less worth in a discussion like this.” as if I had suggested otherwise.

You have apologized to me twice during this conversation – and I appreciate both instances – but it was because you had first jumped to a conclusion about my assertion as if you had already determined my intent without fully comprehending my words, and because you acknowledged how your choice of words “reasonably led to” my misunderstanding. I accept both apologies fully. What I do not accept is the lack of returned consideration. What I do not accept is how by refraining from challenging you on every point of mine that you have twisted, you have called me ‘small’. What I do not accept is how you dismiss my opinions as narrow and intolerant with narrow-minded intolerance of your own.

Are some of your points valid? Of course. Are some of mine not? I’m sure. Yet, I acknowledged that while the two sides of this discussion may never fully understand one another, perhaps it is acceptance that matters more. I have accepted your view as valid for you…as I have accepted my family’s view as valid for them. You have failed to extend the same bit of courtesy and have instead shown a severe lack of understanding and tolerance and have, by extension, proven that the perpetrator of intolerance here has been you.

And yes. “Not surprisingly” is the term I used because I hear responses such as yours on a regular basis. A digging in, a defensive and accusatory barrage of words that seem to reflect little more than an argument formed from within.

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]Panchgani wrote:[/b]

Really??? Does it really imply that one particular religion (or philosophy) is the ONLY legitimite religion (or philosophy).[/QUOTE]
Well, yes and no. It is one idea, but it can branch off into any number of ways as there are thousands of religions that have adhered to some kind of idea of a heavenly father. Either way, it certainly does exclude a lot of people. The prayer without those four words, however, would exclude nobody.

[QUOTE]It is overkill to have the baby (the statement) thrown out with the 4 words of bathwater (my heavenly father & amen).[/QUOTE]
Absolutely it is. And the school has the choice to put up the prayer without the religious words, and they haven't. Sour grapes?

[QUOTE]On the other hand, "One Nation under God" and "In God We Trust" implies that I am not a "legitimite" American, because I do not trust in a god that "lords" over me. [/QUOTE]
If that doesn't bother you, that's cool. But it definitely bothers a lot of people.
[/QUOTE]

When citing the Pledge of Allegiance in public, I do not say the words "Under God" because they were shoe-horned in to it in the 50's.

"If a black person in the 60s was being egged after buying a quart of milk"

If God gives you eggs, make an omelette.

LOL, Zebonka. (As usual, we're not worthy! Ha.)

I would like to add some thoughts. It is maybe not a good idea for me to only say that I think that God is a helpful force. Because that would imply that I think that only our will is in action. I think that there is a great amount of intelligence beyond our own and I think this intelligence is also a giving force or entity. In other words, we can have one option in mind, and what we end up with (which we didn't specifically want) is much better than anything we could have imagined for ourselves. Or we go to sleep with a problem and wake up with a good solution. Or we get a feeling that tells us to slow down, then a car runs a stop sign and travels in front of us rather than hitting us from the side (my most recent Wow moment). So, these are mysteries. This intelligence outside ourselves (or maybe we are all connected to it) is a mystery. We don't know who or what God is, or how much he resembles the God of the religions, but I would say that He/She/it (this is for Real Wizard -ha) is much more cool, awesome, and wonderful than we can even imagine.

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]

At best we can have a bit of a better understanding of where we are all coming from, but it's very unlikely any of us are going to walk away having adopted the thoughts or ideas of someone else here. [/QUOTE]

I agree. It’s unlikely anyone’s opinion has shifted to those of another in this thread – though I would wager that some of our opinions have become further entrenched.

[QUOTE]
How much are we listening to others vs. writing our thoughts on a forum because they make sense to us ? [/QUOTE]

Good question. Unfortunately, even if the intent was to listen, here on a forum we’re forced to depend on the written word – without benefit of expression, tone or the natural give-and-take of a live conversation. When the sentiments of others seem ambiguous, we apply our own inflections or attitudes to their words. Too many valid points are missed or misconstrued that way and we wind up with impressions that can just as easily be wrong as right. That may not be unlike live debates where opposing sides choose to form their next argument when they should be listening and responding to the points being made by their opponent.

[QUOTE]
So is the end gain worth the time invested ? [/QUOTE]

I’m not sure, but I think we may have managed to create a microcosm of a greater debate that has been, still is and will no doubt continue to be carried out beyond the bounds of this forum. It’s quite interesting, if not conclusive.

[QUOTE] [b]Donna13 wrote:[/b]

LOL, Zebonka. (As usual, we're not worthy! Ha.)

I would like to add some thoughts. It is maybe not a good idea for me to only say that I think that God is a helpful force. Because that would imply that I think that only our will is in action. I think that there is a great amount of intelligence beyond our own and I think this intelligence is also a giving force or entity. In other words, we can have one option in mind, and what we end up with (which we didn't specifically want) is much better than anything we could have imagined for ourselves. Or we go to sleep with a problem and wake up with a good solution. Or we get a feeling that tells us to slow down, then a car runs a stop sign and travels in front of us rather than hitting us from the side (my most recent Wow moment). So, these are mysteries. This intelligence outside ourselves (or maybe we are all connected to it) is a mystery. We don't know who or what God is, or how much he resembles the God of the religions, but I would say that He/She/it (this is for Real Wizard -ha) is much more cool, awesome, and wonderful than we can even imagine.[/QUOTE]

Excellent post - especially the part where you almost make me feel like a celebrity.

Many have suggested that our mental vibrations attract the good and/or bad into our lives. I cannot possibly stress how true this is for me. Virtually everything that has come to me in my life has been a direct result of the thoughts that I transmit. I receive what I give out. If I believe something with complete conviction and don't even entertain the possibility of the opposite outcome, I receive it - every time. And if my time is consumed by worry or not wanting something, I get precisely that.

Tesla, Edison and Einstein talked about vibrations a century ago, and this is likely what they were on to.

Okay all you heathens, prepare to be converted! The offensive dude on the prayer banner works in mysterious ways. Today, I managed to give myself a great big concussion. That's right: no TV, no computer (after this), no texting, no reading, no going to work, no arguing about religion on the internet. For 5 days I will be a miserable potted plant. So I can't explain how you lot are still slightly full of poo just now, but I'll be back in a few days. In lieu of flowers try to sort yourselves out by then. Ha ha.

Just in case I go all Natasha Richardson, know that I do love you all, and MFM, of all the people who I don't know in NYC you are still my first choice with whom to order champagne and too many samosas, eat what we can, and throw the rest at each other as seems appropriate.

If you talk about me while I'm gone please be interesting. :)

[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]

Okay all you heathens, prepare to be converted! The offensive dude on the prayer banner works in mysterious ways. Today, I managed to give myself a great big concussion. That's right: no TV, no computer (after this), no texting, no reading, no going to work, no arguing about religion on the internet. For 5 days I will be a miserable potted plant. So I can't explain how you lot are still slightly full of poo just now, but I'll be back in a few days. In lieu of flowers try to sort yourselves out by then. Ha ha.

Just in case I go all Natasha Richardson, know that I do love you all, and MFM, of all the people who I don't know in NYC you are still my first choice with whom to order champagne and too many samosas, eat what we can, and throw the rest at each other as seems appropriate.

If you talk about me while I'm gone please be interesting. :) [/QUOTE]

From the sounds of this, I'd say that was one hard knock. :-/

Seriously, take care of yourself. Good thoughts and well wishes are being sent to you from here. No prayers, mind you...but plenty of well wishes.

[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]

Okay all you heathens, prepare to be converted! The offensive dude on the prayer banner works in mysterious ways. Today, I managed to give myself a great big concussion. That's right: no TV, no computer (after this), no texting, no reading, no going to work, no arguing about religion on the internet. For 5 days I will be a miserable potted plant. So I can't explain how you lot are still slightly full of poo just now, but I'll be back in a few days. In lieu of flowers try to sort yourselves out by then. Ha ha.

Just in case I go all Natasha Richardson, know that I do love you all, and MFM, of all the people who I don't know in NYC you are still my first choice with whom to order champagne and too many samosas, eat what we can, and throw the rest at each other as seems appropriate.

If you talk about me while I'm gone please be interesting. :)[/QUOTE]

^ everything you've ever said that I disagree with is forgiven with the awesomeness that is this post.

Take it easy, GF. Rest up and get better soon.

In my next life I want to be this woman's child - (I know we were done here in this thread, but when I saw this, I had to share.)

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-910282?hpt=hp_c3

==

For some reason, when I click that link, it doesn't go through. In case the same happens to you - here's the text -

Why I Raise My Children Without God
By TXBlue08 | Posted January 14, 2013 | Texas

CNN PRODUCER NOTE TXBlue08, a mother of two teenagers in Texas, blogs about raising her children without religion. She said she shared this essay on CNN iReport because 'I just felt there is not a voice out there for women/moms like me. I think people misunderstand or are fearful of people who don’t believe in God.'
- dsashin, CNN iReport producer


When my son was around 3 years old, he used to ask me a lot of questions about heaven. Where is it? How do people walk without a body? How will I find you? You know the questions that kids ask.

For over a year, I lied to him and made up stories that I didn’t believe about heaven. Like most parents, I love my child so much that I didn’t want him to be scared. I wanted him to feel safe and loved and full of hope. But the trade-off was that I would have to make stuff up, and I would have to brainwash him into believing stories that didn’t make sense, stories that I didn’t believe either.

One day he would know this, and he would not trust my judgment. He would know that I built an elaborate tale—not unlike the one we tell children about Santa—to explain the inconsistent and illogical legend of God.

And so I thought it was only right to be honest with my children. I am a non-believer, and for years I’ve been on the fringe in my community. As a blogger, though, I’ve found that there are many other parents out there like me. We are creating the next generation of kids, and there is a wave of young agnostics, atheists, free thinkers and humanists rising up through the ranks who will, hopefully, lower our nation’s religious fever.

Here are a few of the reasons why I am raising my children without God.

God is a bad parent and role model.

If God is our father, then he is not a good parent. Good parents don’t allow their children to inflict harm on others. Good people don’t stand by and watch horrible acts committed against innocent men, women and children. They don’t condone violence and abuse. “He has given us free will,” you say? Our children have free will, but we still step in and guide them.

God is not logical.

How many times have you heard, “Why did God allow this to happen?” And this: “It’s not for us to understand.” Translate: We don’t understand, so we will not think about it or deal with the issue. Take for example the senseless tragedy in Newtown. Rather than address the problem of guns in America, we defer responsibility to God. He had a reason. He wanted more angels. Only he knows why. We write poems saying that we told God to leave our schools. Now he’s making us pay the price. If there is a good, all-knowing, all-powerful God who loves his children, does it make sense that he would allow murders, child abuse, wars, brutal beatings, torture and millions of heinous acts to be committed throughout the history of mankind? Doesn’t this go against everything Christ taught us in the New Testament?

The question we should be asking is this: “Why did we allow this to happen?” How can we fix this? No imaginary person is going to give us the answers or tell us why. Only we have the ability to be logical and to problem solve, and we should not abdicate these responsibilities to “God” just because a topic is tough or uncomfortable to address.

God is not fair.

If God is fair, then why does he answer the silly prayers of some while allowing other, serious requests, to go unanswered? I have known people who pray that they can find money to buy new furniture. (Answered.) I have known people who pray to God to help them win a soccer match. (Answered.) Why are the prayers of parents with dying children not answered?

If God is fair, then why are some babies born with heart defects, autism, missing limbs or conjoined to another baby? Clearly, all men are not created equally. Why is a good man beaten senseless on the street while an evil man finds great wealth taking advantage of others? This is not fair. A game maker who allows luck to rule mankind’s existence has not created a fair game.

God does not protect the innocent.

He does not keep our children safe. As a society, we stand up and speak for those who cannot. We protect our little ones as much as possible. When a child is kidnapped, we work together to find the child. We do not tolerate abuse and neglect. Why can’t God, with all his powers of omnipotence, protect the innocent?

God is not present.

He is not here. Telling our children to love a person they cannot see, smell, touch or hear does not make sense. It means that we teach children to love an image, an image that lives only in their imaginations. What we teach them, in effect, is to love an idea that we have created, one that is based in our fears and our hopes.

God Does Not Teach Children to Be Good

A child should make moral choices for the right reasons. Telling him that he must behave because God is watching means that his morality will be externally focused rather than internally structured. It’s like telling a child to behave or Santa won’t bring presents. When we take God out of the picture, we place responsibility of doing the right thing onto the shoulders of our children. No, they won’t go to heaven or rule their own planets when they die, but they can sleep better at night. They will make their family proud. They will feel better about who they are. They will be decent people.

God Teaches Narcissism

“God has a plan for you.” Telling kids there is a big guy in the sky who has a special path for them makes children narcissistic; it makes them think the world is at their disposal and that, no matter what happens, it doesn’t really matter because God is in control. That gives kids a sense of false security and creates selfishness. “No matter what I do, God loves me and forgives me. He knows my purpose. I am special.” The irony is that, while we tell this story to our kids, other children are abused and murdered, starved and neglected. All part of God’s plan, right?

When we raise kids without God, we tell them the truth—we are no more special than the next creature. We are just a very, very small part of a big, big machine–whether that machine is nature or society–the influence we have is minuscule. The realization of our insignificance gives us a true sense of humbleness.

I understand why people need God. I understand why people need heaven. It is terrifying to think that we are all alone in this universe, that one day we—along with the children we love so much—will cease to exist. The idea of God and an afterlife gives many of us structure, community and hope.

I do not want religion to go away. I only want religion to be kept at home or in church where it belongs. It’s a personal effect, like a toothbrush or a pair of shoes. It’s not something to be used or worn by strangers. I want my children to be free not to believe and to know that our schools and our government will make decisions based on what is logical, just and fair—not on what they believe an imaginary God wants.

It may seem like we are smart enough to come up with our own logic on this sort of thing just by using the inconsistencies of the ideas presented in religion, but this lady doesn't sound very intelligent to me. I can talk to my own older family members and hear enough anecdotal information that proves to me (beyond my own experience) that we are being assisted, warned of shocking events in advance, and that prayer works. And these phenomena (whether you apply religious ideas to it or not) have been the subject of the work of real scientists at the top universities. This lady just sounds like a person who is trying to be logical, but overlooking what she cannot accept. It doesn't seem that she has done any research other than reading a newspaper. So I doubt she would be able to be much of a help to her kids. Also, when the kids are older, they will realize that they were not allowed to form their own ideas. She may be just as controlling as a super religious mother or father. The other side of the coin.