Something to bear in mind is that, despite nutbags like this murderer, most people, regardless of race, ethnicity or country of origin, don't resort to violence lightly. In fact, the vast majority of people will never do so. But, if you're a non-white immigrant in Europe these days, you face a tremendous amount of hate. Imagine you're a moderate Muslim who escaped from a fundamentalist regime and made your way to Britain. You get there, you do your best to learn English, and after six months, you can manage a basic conversation. What do you hear people say? "Those filthy towel-heads are stealing our jobs."; "there is no moderate Islam"; "Muslims hate the west"; most people don't talk to you (mostly not out of malicious intent), and of those that do, a fair number just hurl abuse at you. You try to get a job. However, it's crisis, jobs are scarce, and you don't speak the language that well yet. Plus, you look different from most Brits. Another six months later, and you're still unemployed. "See?", people say, "they only come here to get free money."
You feel awkward in summer, when you see women wearing much more revealing outfits than you are used to. You don't say anything, because you don't want to be impolite, but when a much more radical immigrant makes headlines by insulting women for their clothing, suddenly everyone looks at you. "You're a muslim; why are you so disrespectful of women? Go back to the desert, you animal."
Immigrants get ever more frustrated and ever more desperate. Those that attempt to integrate are on their own - they can expect very little help from the government, and practically no sympathy from the population. They get stuck in the cheapest, most unpopular neighbourhoods, which consequently turn into immigrant enclaves. See? Populists say, and they are widely believed, they don't want to integrate, they just bunch together. Meanwhile, 'civilized westerners' get applauded by roughly a fifth of the European population for saying things about immigrants that would get you sent to court if you said them about, for instance, Jews.
Yes, we have problems with a small portion of the immigrant population. But so long as we keep accepting that all immigrants get abused for the abject behaviour of a tiny portion of them, we are not going to solve those problems. In fact, we are forcing more and more immigrants into the hands of fundamentalists by our current approach. We need immigrants, for the simple reason that our population is ageing and an ever smaller number of people of working age has to provide for an ever larger number of retired people. Even disregarding the fact that it's just basic human decency, economic motives make that we should take responsibility collectively for integrating immigrants into our society.
Not a hundred years ago, people in America claimed that Italians and Eastern Europeans could never become Americans, because they were just "too different" and "inherently criminal". A hundred and fifty years ago people said the same thing about the Irish. So long as no one looked out for them, they remained the lowest class in the population, and thus also the group with the highest crime rate. But when the people and the government set up programs to help them, integration picked up, and America has many groups of well-integrated immigrants now. Europe can do the same thing, but we won't so long as the established political parties adopt the views and rhetoric of nativist, far-right groups as a vote-getter in times of crisis.[/QUOTE]
^ one of the top ten posts ever made on this forum.
Cheerfully awaiting the buffoons who will call you a radical leftist because you have perspective..
Donna13 · Member since
We can't go back in time, avoid invading Iraq, and then see if things turned out a certain way. I think it was a big mistake, and I wish we hadn't gone in. But there is so much upheaval and violence in many of the Arab countries with this "Arab Spring" that is going on, and it seems to be a huge mess. A strong man as a dictator maybe keeps things running without as much daily conflict, but it is just a prison for the people to live that way. But this sudden attempt at democracy is maybe not so easy in countries that have poor and uneducated people who are not used to self government and getting along with western types of ideas (religious differences or otherwise).
But this incidence in London I think resembles the situation in Boston: a couple of guys getting radicalized by hateful ideas. They were exposed to these ideas and I guess we don't understand how this happens - that they can go from being ordinary citizens to wanting to kill.
------
"If people want change, they have to bring it on themselves. And sometimes it isn't pretty."
Well, I think if a person wants change, working within the legal system and current political system is the best way to go about it. These two terrorists only accomplished getting themselves arrested and in jail for life probably, plus they have made the situation much worse for Muslims in England.
I think the provoking of this sort of action should be illegal. There are limits to free speech and just because someone is practicing their religion, they should not be exempt from being held responsible for encouraging young men to do things like this.
bobbyo · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]
Holly:
Something to bear in mind is that, despite nutbags like this murderer, most people, regardless of race, ethnicity or country of origin, don't resort to violence lightly. In fact, the vast majority of people will never do so. But, if you're a non-white immigrant in Europe these days, you face a tremendous amount of hate. Imagine you're a moderate Muslim who escaped from a fundamentalist regime and made your way to Britain. You get there, you do your best to learn English, and after six months, you can manage a basic conversation. What do you hear people say? "Those filthy towel-heads are stealing our jobs."; "there is no moderate Islam"; "Muslims hate the west"; most people don't talk to you (mostly not out of malicious intent), and of those that do, a fair number just hurl abuse at you. You try to get a job. However, it's crisis, jobs are scarce, and you don't speak the language that well yet. Plus, you look different from most Brits. Another six months later, and you're still unemployed. "See?", people say, "they only come here to get free money."
You feel awkward in summer, when you see women wearing much more revealing outfits than you are used to. You don't say anything, because you don't want to be impolite, but when a much more radical immigrant makes headlines by insulting women for their clothing, suddenly everyone looks at you. "You're a muslim; why are you so disrespectful of women? Go back to the desert, you animal."
Immigrants get ever more frustrated and ever more desperate. Those that attempt to integrate are on their own - they can expect very little help from the government, and practically no sympathy from the population. They get stuck in the cheapest, most unpopular neighbourhoods, which consequently turn into immigrant enclaves. See? Populists say, and they are widely believed, they don't want to integrate, they just bunch together. Meanwhile, 'civilized westerners' get applauded by roughly a fifth of the European population for saying things about immigrants that would get you sent to court if you said them about, for instance, Jews.
Yes, we have problems with a small portion of the immigrant population. But so long as we keep accepting that all immigrants get abused for the abject behaviour of a tiny portion of them, we are not going to solve those problems. In fact, we are forcing more and more immigrants into the hands of fundamentalists by our current approach. We need immigrants, for the simple reason that our population is ageing and an ever smaller number of people of working age has to provide for an ever larger number of retired people. Even disregarding the fact that it's just basic human decency, economic motives make that we should take responsibility collectively for integrating immigrants into our society.
Not a hundred years ago, people in America claimed that Italians and Eastern Europeans could never become Americans, because they were just "too different" and "inherently criminal". A hundred and fifty years ago people said the same thing about the Irish. So long as no one looked out for them, they remained the lowest class in the population, and thus also the group with the highest crime rate. But when the people and the government set up programs to help them, integration picked up, and America has many groups of well-integrated immigrants now. Europe can do the same thing, but we won't so long as the established political parties adopt the views and rhetoric of nativist, far-right groups as a vote-getter in times of crisis.[/QUOTE]
Superb.
The English Defence League were in my hometown of Sheffield yesterday to march and spread their nonsense - they convened in a pub at 10am which I think speaks volumes.
Anyway, a copy of this post would have been great to hand out to those members that can read. Extremely well put.
