Sebastian
There's not a rule against Roger playing with fingers. Are you sure he uses a plectrum on all the tracks he's played bass on?
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Karfan
That's what it sounds like to me.
Sebastian
Do you mean all the 40+ songs Rog's played bass on were with plectrum? Not a single exception?
matt z
Sorta relevant. But I've always wondered where C_Matt sourced his bass note (one or two) on WWTLF, seeing as how i never really heard much on the original recording.
At least not until the chorus heightens
At least not until the chorus heightens
Karfan
Well,at least all of the Queen songs he played bass on,and songs on his first solo album.I may be wrong though.
Sebastian
Let's see which tracks feature Roger on bass, according to liner notes:
* I Wanna Testify
* Turn on the TV
* Sheer Heart Attack
* Fight from the Inside
* No Violins
* Laugh or Cry
* Future Management
* Let's Get Crazy
* My Country I & II
* Good Times Are Now
* Magic Is Loose
* Interlude in Constantinople
* Airheads
* Fun in Space
* Nazis 1994
* Happiness
* Touch the Sky
* Freedom Train
* You Had to Be There
* Everybody Hurts Sometime
* Loneliness
* Dear Mr Murdoch
* People on Streets
* The Whisperers
* No More Fun
* One Night Stand
* Quality Street
* I Don't Care
* The Unblinking Eye
* Up
* Smile
And that's not counting the many songs he might have played bass on without receiving a credit, such as tracks on 'Strange Frontier' (the album has no 'who played what' credits except, IIRC, for Rick Parfitt's guest appearances), 'Shove It' (he did most, or perhaps even all, of the album, before the band even existed), 'Cosmos Rocks', Queen albums and stuff he produced for other artists.
But even disregarding all those 'ghost' bass performances, we've got 31 tracks where Roger's confirmed to have played said instrument. Even in the case he played with a plectrum on each and every one of those 31 songs, that still wouldn't prove he couldn't have made an exception for 'More of That Jazz.'
It still could be John Deacon on bass on that one, of course, so possibilities are wide open.
* I Wanna Testify
* Turn on the TV
* Sheer Heart Attack
* Fight from the Inside
* No Violins
* Laugh or Cry
* Future Management
* Let's Get Crazy
* My Country I & II
* Good Times Are Now
* Magic Is Loose
* Interlude in Constantinople
* Airheads
* Fun in Space
* Nazis 1994
* Happiness
* Touch the Sky
* Freedom Train
* You Had to Be There
* Everybody Hurts Sometime
* Loneliness
* Dear Mr Murdoch
* People on Streets
* The Whisperers
* No More Fun
* One Night Stand
* Quality Street
* I Don't Care
* The Unblinking Eye
* Up
* Smile
And that's not counting the many songs he might have played bass on without receiving a credit, such as tracks on 'Strange Frontier' (the album has no 'who played what' credits except, IIRC, for Rick Parfitt's guest appearances), 'Shove It' (he did most, or perhaps even all, of the album, before the band even existed), 'Cosmos Rocks', Queen albums and stuff he produced for other artists.
But even disregarding all those 'ghost' bass performances, we've got 31 tracks where Roger's confirmed to have played said instrument. Even in the case he played with a plectrum on each and every one of those 31 songs, that still wouldn't prove he couldn't have made an exception for 'More of That Jazz.'
It still could be John Deacon on bass on that one, of course, so possibilities are wide open.
Oscar J
"But even disregarding all those 'ghost' bass performances, we've got 31 tracks where Roger's confirmed to have played said instrument. Even in the case he played with a plectrum on each and every one of those 31 songs, that still wouldn't prove he couldn't have made an exception for 'More of That Jazz.' "
No, but it would make it a hell of a lot more unlikely. Isn't your list largely based on speculation anyway? I mean, you changed the list when I pointed out that a note had too much vibrato to be Roger.
No, but it would make it a hell of a lot more unlikely. Isn't your list largely based on speculation anyway? I mean, you changed the list when I pointed out that a note had too much vibrato to be Roger.
CPL593h
[QUOTE] [b]Sebastian wrote:[/b]
Songs without Roger Meddows Taylor:
* Dear Friends (I'm 99% sure harmonies are all Brian).
* Execution of Flash
* The Kiss
* Arboria
* Staying Power
* Body Language
* Is This the World We Created
* One Year of Love
* Pain Is So Close to Pleasure
* My Baby Does Me
* Delilah
* Bijou
Just 12, and I'm not entirely sure about some of those cases: what if he did sing harmonies on 'Dear Friends' and/or if he (co-)programmed drum machines on those 80's tracks and/or combined them with his actual (either electric or acoustic) playing?[/QUOTE]
As far as I know (and the recent thread about thing song reinforces me in my belief), there's no Roger on Party (he was on vacation and the song is basically a jam session between Freddie, Brian and John).
Songs without Roger Meddows Taylor:
* Dear Friends (I'm 99% sure harmonies are all Brian).
* Execution of Flash
* The Kiss
* Arboria
* Staying Power
* Body Language
* Is This the World We Created
* One Year of Love
* Pain Is So Close to Pleasure
* My Baby Does Me
* Delilah
* Bijou
Just 12, and I'm not entirely sure about some of those cases: what if he did sing harmonies on 'Dear Friends' and/or if he (co-)programmed drum machines on those 80's tracks and/or combined them with his actual (either electric or acoustic) playing?[/QUOTE]
As far as I know (and the recent thread about thing song reinforces me in my belief), there's no Roger on Party (he was on vacation and the song is basically a jam session between Freddie, Brian and John).
Karfan
That's what I've always thought.That there are only two Queen songs on which Roger played bass.As a matter of fact,I've listened again to More Of That Jazz,and being a huge John Deacon fan,I must say that I'm 99,9% sure that it was indeed John.Some licks are typical for him.Especially 3:53 and 3:57.Typical John.Add couple of slides here and there and you've got quintessential John Deacon bass track.Plus it just SOUNDS LIKE HIM.Anyway,who said that it might not be him?
Sebastian
[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]
Isn't your list largely based on speculation anyway?[/QUOTE]
No, it's not. Systematical research is not the same as 'largely speculation.'
[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]
I mean, you changed the list when I pointed out that a note had too much vibrato to be Roger. [/QUOTE]
Er, no, I didn't. I did change the list, but vibrato wasn't the reason.
[QUOTE] [b]CPL593h wrote:[/b]
As far as I know (and the recent thread about thing song reinforces me in my belief), there's no Roger on Party (he was on vacation and the song is basically a jam session between Freddie, Brian and John).[/QUOTE]
Roger was on holidays when the song arose, which meant he wasn't involved in its *songwriting.* He did, however, get involved in its *recording* when he returned from holidays and did overdubs on the work in progress. You can clearly hear his backing vocals on 'come back come back come back come back.'
[QUOTE] [b]Karfan wrote:[/b]
That's what I've always thought.That there are only two Queen songs on which Roger played bass.[/QUOTE]
There are only two Queen songs on which Roger is credited for having played bass. Not the same thing.
[QUOTE] [b]Karfan wrote:[/b]
I've listened again to More Of That Jazz,and being a huge John Deacon fan,I must say that I'm 99,9% sure that it was indeed John.Some licks are typical for him.Especially 3:53 and 3:57.Typical John.Add couple of slides here and there and you've got quintessential John Deacon bass track.Plus it just SOUNDS LIKE HIM.[/QUOTE]
That's a far better constructed argument than just the plectrum thing. If I'm wrong, I'll happily stand corrected.
[QUOTE] [b]Karfan wrote:[/b]
Anyway,who said that it might not be him?[/QUOTE]
I did. I entertained the possibility of Roger having recorded the song on his own. The 'Jazz' album has no performance credits, so theoretically, anyone could've played anything. It's still a stretch, of course, and I never claimed that conclusion to be a fact. Life's not black and white anyway, and not having a conclusive fact is not the same thing as being just guessing or speculating everything. As a matter of fact, life's not a greyscale either: there are millions of colours, and not being able to see the FIR or the UV doesn't mean they don't exist.
Isn't your list largely based on speculation anyway?[/QUOTE]
No, it's not. Systematical research is not the same as 'largely speculation.'
[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]
I mean, you changed the list when I pointed out that a note had too much vibrato to be Roger. [/QUOTE]
Er, no, I didn't. I did change the list, but vibrato wasn't the reason.
[QUOTE] [b]CPL593h wrote:[/b]
As far as I know (and the recent thread about thing song reinforces me in my belief), there's no Roger on Party (he was on vacation and the song is basically a jam session between Freddie, Brian and John).[/QUOTE]
Roger was on holidays when the song arose, which meant he wasn't involved in its *songwriting.* He did, however, get involved in its *recording* when he returned from holidays and did overdubs on the work in progress. You can clearly hear his backing vocals on 'come back come back come back come back.'
[QUOTE] [b]Karfan wrote:[/b]
That's what I've always thought.That there are only two Queen songs on which Roger played bass.[/QUOTE]
There are only two Queen songs on which Roger is credited for having played bass. Not the same thing.
[QUOTE] [b]Karfan wrote:[/b]
I've listened again to More Of That Jazz,and being a huge John Deacon fan,I must say that I'm 99,9% sure that it was indeed John.Some licks are typical for him.Especially 3:53 and 3:57.Typical John.Add couple of slides here and there and you've got quintessential John Deacon bass track.Plus it just SOUNDS LIKE HIM.[/QUOTE]
That's a far better constructed argument than just the plectrum thing. If I'm wrong, I'll happily stand corrected.
[QUOTE] [b]Karfan wrote:[/b]
Anyway,who said that it might not be him?[/QUOTE]
I did. I entertained the possibility of Roger having recorded the song on his own. The 'Jazz' album has no performance credits, so theoretically, anyone could've played anything. It's still a stretch, of course, and I never claimed that conclusion to be a fact. Life's not black and white anyway, and not having a conclusive fact is not the same thing as being just guessing or speculating everything. As a matter of fact, life's not a greyscale either: there are millions of colours, and not being able to see the FIR or the UV doesn't mean they don't exist.
Oscar J
[QUOTE] [b]Sebastian wrote:[/b]
Er, no, I didn't. I did change the list, but vibrato wasn't the reason.
[/QUOTE]
... go on?
Er, no, I didn't. I did change the list, but vibrato wasn't the reason.
[/QUOTE]
... go on?
Sebastian
I took SHA off the list after Georg convinced me on QOL that the credits only mentioned Roger for rhythm guitar. It was not because of your 'vibrato' post.
Oscar J
So does the credits actually mention Brian as lead guitarist? Or is that a guesswork based on the technical ability and May-ish feel of the licks featured in the song, which, coincidentally, my post was about?
I must say I feel your slightly dismissive tone doesn't exactly encourage discussion.
I must say I feel your slightly dismissive tone doesn't exactly encourage discussion.
Sebastian
[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]
So does the credits actually mention Brian as lead guitarist?[/QUOTE]
Yes, they do: Brian's credited on guitars for the album, which means that, unless stated otherwise, guitars are played by him.
[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]
Or is that a guesswork[/QUOTE]
Research is not the same as guesswork. Guesswork would be something like 'I think they recorded the song on the 6th of August 1977,' when I've got absolutely nothing to point me in that direction (of course, if I'm really really really lucky, maybe they did, as the date in question is within the claimed timeframe for the album recording sessions). Stating that Brian played lead guitar based on a closer inspection to the credits, a closer listen to the track and a discussion in two recognised Queen forums (a discussion to which you contributed valuable insight) is far, far, far more than 'guesswork.'
Even if we had a video of Brian (or Roger, or Freddie for that matter) recording the lead guitar bit in question, it still wouldn't be '100% proof,' as videos can be staged. But 0% and 100% aren't the only options.
Life's not black and white, and it's not a greyscale either. There are millions of colours, and not being able to see the FIR or the UV doesn't mean they don't exist.
[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]
I must say I feel your slightly dismissive tone doesn't exactly encourage discussion. [/QUOTE]
It's not dismissive and I have indeed encouraged discussion. Thanks to that discussion, and to contributions like yours, I've been able to realise mistakes I've made and I've corrected them.
What I find dismissive, if we're going there, is to refer to research as 'guesswork' just because it cannot (and will not) make 100% solid statements.
How do you think scientists have discovered Saturn's density? Did one of them take a giant glove and put it in a giant tub and realised it floated? How do you think people know how long ago dimetrodons existed? Was anyone alive then to set off a timer? Or should we now deem all of that as 'guesswork' just because there's no physical evidence?
Following that same train of thought, keep in mind that a lot of things scientists firmly believe in are later on proved to be wrong. A lot of what Darwin thought about genetics was way off; smoking is bad for your health; people do use far, far, far more than 10% of their brains; T-Rex are now thought to have been feathered; the earth is not flat.
I'm submitting admittedly temporary conclusions based on the best possible amalgamation of evidence that I've made based on the sources I've got. Said sources (and resources, for that matter) are far, far, far, far less precise than whatever equipment and knowledge were actually used to calculate Saturn's mass, volume and density, but I reckon concluding who plays lead guitar on a 1977 punk-spoof album track is not an equally difficult task.
Maybe one day we'll have access to multi-tracks and stuff that will help us make far more precise claims, which will still not be 100% solid anyway. Even if Brian himself claimed he played it (or didn't play it), witness testimony's got a huge margin of error (need I remind you of all the mistakes Brian's made about his own work?).
That, again, doesn't automatically turn everything me (and many others) have put a lot of effort on into 'guesswork.'
So does the credits actually mention Brian as lead guitarist?[/QUOTE]
Yes, they do: Brian's credited on guitars for the album, which means that, unless stated otherwise, guitars are played by him.
[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]
Or is that a guesswork[/QUOTE]
Research is not the same as guesswork. Guesswork would be something like 'I think they recorded the song on the 6th of August 1977,' when I've got absolutely nothing to point me in that direction (of course, if I'm really really really lucky, maybe they did, as the date in question is within the claimed timeframe for the album recording sessions). Stating that Brian played lead guitar based on a closer inspection to the credits, a closer listen to the track and a discussion in two recognised Queen forums (a discussion to which you contributed valuable insight) is far, far, far more than 'guesswork.'
Even if we had a video of Brian (or Roger, or Freddie for that matter) recording the lead guitar bit in question, it still wouldn't be '100% proof,' as videos can be staged. But 0% and 100% aren't the only options.
Life's not black and white, and it's not a greyscale either. There are millions of colours, and not being able to see the FIR or the UV doesn't mean they don't exist.
[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]
I must say I feel your slightly dismissive tone doesn't exactly encourage discussion. [/QUOTE]
It's not dismissive and I have indeed encouraged discussion. Thanks to that discussion, and to contributions like yours, I've been able to realise mistakes I've made and I've corrected them.
What I find dismissive, if we're going there, is to refer to research as 'guesswork' just because it cannot (and will not) make 100% solid statements.
How do you think scientists have discovered Saturn's density? Did one of them take a giant glove and put it in a giant tub and realised it floated? How do you think people know how long ago dimetrodons existed? Was anyone alive then to set off a timer? Or should we now deem all of that as 'guesswork' just because there's no physical evidence?
Following that same train of thought, keep in mind that a lot of things scientists firmly believe in are later on proved to be wrong. A lot of what Darwin thought about genetics was way off; smoking is bad for your health; people do use far, far, far more than 10% of their brains; T-Rex are now thought to have been feathered; the earth is not flat.
I'm submitting admittedly temporary conclusions based on the best possible amalgamation of evidence that I've made based on the sources I've got. Said sources (and resources, for that matter) are far, far, far, far less precise than whatever equipment and knowledge were actually used to calculate Saturn's mass, volume and density, but I reckon concluding who plays lead guitar on a 1977 punk-spoof album track is not an equally difficult task.
Maybe one day we'll have access to multi-tracks and stuff that will help us make far more precise claims, which will still not be 100% solid anyway. Even if Brian himself claimed he played it (or didn't play it), witness testimony's got a huge margin of error (need I remind you of all the mistakes Brian's made about his own work?).
That, again, doesn't automatically turn everything me (and many others) have put a lot of effort on into 'guesswork.'
Sebastian
Based on Beatles Bible (I really don't like to use Wikipedia for these things), and only taking into consideration album tracks (except for the 'Yellow Submarine' OST), John's absent from 19 songs, Ringo from 14, George from 13 and Paul from five.
George-less:
Yesterday
For No One
She’s Leaving Home
Wild Honey Pie
Martha My Dear
Blackbird
Don’t Pass Me By
Why Don’t We Do It in the Road?
I Will
Julia
Mother Nature’s Son
Good Night
Her Majesty
John-less:
Yesterday
Love You To
For No One
Within You Without You
Wild Honey Pie
Martha My Dear
Blackbird
Piggies (he did some tape loops, but that's more co-producing than actually performing).
Don’t Pass Me By
Why Don’t We Do It in the Road?
Mother Nature’s Son
Long, Long, Long
Savoy Truffle
Good Night
I Me Mine
Maxwell’s Silver Hammer
Here Comes the Sun
Golden Slumbers
Her Majesty
Paul-less:
She Said She Said
Within You Without You
Julia
Revolution 9
Good Night
Ringo-less:
Yesterday
Eleanor Rigby
She’s Leaving Home
Within You Without You
Back in the USSR
Dear Prudence
Wild Honey Pie
Martha My Dear
Blackbird
Julia
Mother Nature’s Son
Revolution 9
Because
Her Majesty
George-less:
Yesterday
For No One
She’s Leaving Home
Wild Honey Pie
Martha My Dear
Blackbird
Don’t Pass Me By
Why Don’t We Do It in the Road?
I Will
Julia
Mother Nature’s Son
Good Night
Her Majesty
John-less:
Yesterday
Love You To
For No One
Within You Without You
Wild Honey Pie
Martha My Dear
Blackbird
Piggies (he did some tape loops, but that's more co-producing than actually performing).
Don’t Pass Me By
Why Don’t We Do It in the Road?
Mother Nature’s Son
Long, Long, Long
Savoy Truffle
Good Night
I Me Mine
Maxwell’s Silver Hammer
Here Comes the Sun
Golden Slumbers
Her Majesty
Paul-less:
She Said She Said
Within You Without You
Julia
Revolution 9
Good Night
Ringo-less:
Yesterday
Eleanor Rigby
She’s Leaving Home
Within You Without You
Back in the USSR
Dear Prudence
Wild Honey Pie
Martha My Dear
Blackbird
Julia
Mother Nature’s Son
Revolution 9
Because
Her Majesty