Harmony/composing skills

Hi all,

It is quite a while since I visited this forum the last time. After a while, I admit I lost a little bit of motivation for reading the forum because most things that are interesting and important to us fans were already mentioned and discussed 100-times, consequently many trolling AIDS activities took place.

Now, I would like to start a new topic that wasn't discussed yet (I hope), at least not to my memory and search.

And sorry for my English (not my native language)

Topic is: WHICH QUEEN SONG HAS THE BEST HARMONY (instrumental music without vocals, guitar solos or other melodies)?

What I mean by that?
- number of chords
- how complex chord progression is
- fancy uncommon, for rock/pop music unusual chords, "borrowed" chords from other keys etc.
- modulations/transitions from one key to another that create dramatic changes.
- nice dramatic dissonance
- harmonic relation between verse and chorus, especially if there is modulation.

You may ask why I even put this topic under "serious discussion". Well, it is important to realize that Freddie was very good (and different) at harmony compared to other rock/pop musicians. Most pop/rock songs (something like 80 - 90 %) only have 4 chords. I am not aware of ANY piano based song (or any of his songs AT ALL) written by Freddie with only 4 chords. I don't think it exists. If there is one, I simply never noticed/discovered it. The most simple harmony that I found is in a very short song called Nevermore and even this song has 7 chords - lowest number of chords for piano based songs that I found. Even "Crazy Little Thing Called Love" which was composed on guitar (definitely NOT Freddie's instrument) has 7 chords. He often joked that his guitar can only play few chords, but even this song has more chords than average pop/rock song.

What Freddie said about Crazy Little Thing Called Love:

"Crazy Little Thing Called Love' took me five or ten minutes. I did that on the guitar, which I can't play for nuts, and in one way it was quite a good thing because I was restricted, knowing only a few chords. It's a good discipline because I simply had to write within a small framework. I couldn't work through too many chords and because of that restriction I wrote a good song, I think."



I am pretty sure 90 % of his piano based songs have at least 9-10 chords or more. His songs can have much more complex harmony, over 20 chords, with the record of Bohemian Rhapsody's piano track that contains 49 chords.

Now before you say:" 49, are you mad...how is that possible ....nonsense", let me explain how I count the chords:

I consider C, C/G, C/E, CM7, CM7/E, CM7/G and C7, C7/E, C7/G as 9 different chords. Even though they all have the same basic harmony (C,E,G) they all sound very different. If you compare C to C/G they will sound completely different because you have different bass, and the bass is the foundation of harmony. Of course when I say C/G I am strictly thinking of G as a very profound and distinct bass (left hand on piano /John would play G on the bass guitar) and NOT the third inversion of the triad (in the treble) which sounds basically the same and therefore it can not be considered as something important or different chord.

Yes, of course they all have the same base, you can only play just C chord instead the other 8 chords and it will be somehow OK and you might get somehow away with it (for not demanding listener) but this will not be the same as original anymore, it will be less accurate, very different, cheap, boring, simplified and what is most important the instrumental version of the song (without vocals) will lose its dramatic harmonic meaning that creates the emotions and feelings of the song, which are making the song unique.

Of course number of chords is by far NOT the most important criteria, it is just one of many aspect related to nice harmony/composition. However, I would never consider 4 chords song (instrumental) as a harmonic masterpiece.


Back to main topic. Which is your favorite Queen song from harmonic point of view?

Well, for Boh Rhap it is so obvious that it is a masterpiece as far as harmony is concerned. You probably won't find ANY other rock/pop song with 49 chords. Because it is so obvious, I personally don't see any point to discuss about Boh Rhap harmony, that's why I would like to concentrate rather on other songs.

My vote goes to A Winter's Tale and We Are The Champions.

We Are The Champions:
- nice chord progression
- many fancy dissonant chords
- 26 chords, yes WATC might be one of the most catchiest songs but "catchy" has nothing to do with chords, catchy is all about the melody
- chorus has completely different chord progression/chords then the verse (modulation)
- the song has very powerful awesome dramatic modulation with a very good dramatic pre-chorus (transition between verse and chorus). This transition just before the chorus (F) creates so much powerful emotions and is to my opinion THE MAIN reason that the song sounds so "victorious". It is just fantastic. This is a typical case where the harmony is the most important factor that makes the song so great. Can you imagine this song being without dramatic pre-chorus (transition between verse and chorus) or if the chorus of this song would be still in the same key (Cm)?. This song would be completely dead without transition/modulation.

Chords used in We Are The Champions:

1) Cm
2) Gm7/C
3) Eb
4) Ab/Eb
5) Bb/D
6) F7
7) Bb
8) Ab/Bb
9) G°7
10) Bb7
11) C7
12) F
13) Am
14) Dm
15) F#°
16) F#°7
17) Gm7
18) C7/G
19) G half dim 7/Bb = Bbm6
20) G half dim 7/E
21) Ebadd9/G
22) Fm7/Ab
23) Bb9
24) Cm11
25) Fm
26) Gm7/F


A winter's Tale:
- very nice melancholic chord progression
- many fancy dissonant melancholic chords that create psychedelic dreamy effect
- 28 chords
- written in F# major (rare key for rock/pop songs)
- chorus has completely different chords then verse (at this particularly part WITHOUT modulation), for instance: beginning of the chorus starts with E which is not even in the key of F# major, but the key of the chorus still remains "from music theory point of view" in F# major (no modulation). This unusual beginning of the chorus creates dreamy, mellow-melancholic effect that makes the song so beautiful, psychedelic and emotional - harmony gives you the feeling how beautiful the landscape is. This is another case where the harmony is probably the most important factor for achieving the goal of the song. I don't think you can achieve such a nice dreamy effect with 4 chords and without fancy dissonant chords.
- First part of the song (F# major) ends with unexpected awesome dissonant chords and then we have beautiful modulation to Ab major. You can feel even bigger composer's dreamy excitement about the beauty of nature when the key goes one whole step higher.

Chords used in A Winter's Tale:

1) F#
2) F#/A#
3) D#m
4) F#/C#
5) G#m
6) G#madd9
7) G#m/G
8) B/F#
9) F#m
10) A
11) C#11
12) B
13) E
14) C#m7
15) B/D#
16) F#°7
17) D#7
18) E°7
19) D#9
20) Ab
21) Ab/C
22) Fm
23) Ab/Eb
24) Bbm
25) Bbmadd9
26) Bbm/A
27) Db/An
28) D/Gb

Why I even write this? because it seems to me that more complex harmony can give so much extra emotions to the song (and makes the song much better of course) IF the composer knows how to use it correct (depends on the lyrics of the song). I believe most people don't realize that advanced harmony had such a powerful role that made Freddie's songs so good. For instance: most Queen fans get shivers down the spine (they are excited) when Freddie in Boh Rhap at 1:23 starts to sing "Mamaaaaa ooooooh", what they don't realize is that it is not excited so much because of the lyrics or vocal but because Freddie created well planed modulation from Bb to Eb. He made very good transition when he sings "But now I've gone and thrown it all away" and then BOOOM explosion in Eb, that's why this "Mamaaaaa" sounds so dramatic. Boh Rhap is what it is mostly because of the more complex harmony, not just lyrics and good vocals.

What I am trying to say is that we mostly talk about lyrics and vocals but never realize how important role had more complex harmony in those songs. Something that we don't appreciate enough. This songs would never be what they are if there would be used simple pop harmony that is used in 90 % cases.

And I think this was one of the Freddie's additional talents that most fans don't realize. Modern (or older) rock/pop musician will use only 4 chords for most of the time because it is SO EASY and it will sound somehow OK. You literally need no more than 10 seconds to make 4-chords harmony for modern songs. But if you include much more chords like Freddie did then it is much more challenging to create nice harmony. Of course it is not difficult to include 20-30 chords in a song but such song will sound most of the time unstable and weird, the challenge is how to "balance" all this chords to each other so that the song will get the right "flow" and emotions that enhance the main purpose of the song.

Don't get me wrong, there are many good 4 or 3 chord songs, but this is ONLY BECAUSE they have good lyrics or vocals (or some other melodies like guitar solos etc.). But if you remove all the vocals and guitar solos, all this songs will sound pretty boring, repeated and with no dramatic effect.

P.S.: I am well aware that most people will not respond to this topic as I assume that many of you don't care about this things, on top of this, topic requires some music theory knowledge - I myself have only basic music theory knowledge, I am not musician, I never went to music school or had a teacher. However, I know that some of you are quite advanced and pretty familiar with this department.

I would like to hear your opinion.

Excellent topic and excellent post (cut short by the word limit, though).

Obviously 'Bo Rhap' has great harmony, my favourite part being the fanfare bit. No modulation, but such a beautiful progression: I > V > vi > V/vi > vi > V/vi > vi > V > I > V/iii > iii > IV > V, which in a way reminds me of I > IV > V/iii > iii > V at the end of the opera section. The song's full of gems, but that's the one that really tops everything else in my opinion.

Now, without over-thinking it and from the top of my head, these would be my choices per album, admitting that there are many Queen songs I've never ever played and which I haven't necessarily sat to analyse harmonically:

* Queen: The very end of 'My Fairy King.'

* Queen II: 'White Queen' just before the solo. So beautiful and interesting. Also, 'Black Queen' just before the rock part.

* Sheer: 'Killer Queen.' It's too obvious to pick the single, but the pre-chorus is just lovely and I really admire how effortlessly Fred managed to modulate a whole step up without simply shifting it. The progression's V/vi > vi > V > I > V/iii > iii , which can also be found on the aforementioned 'Bo Rhap' section, but this time Fred actually follows it with V/V, which at this point is not V/V anymore but a new tonic. Marvellous!

* Opera: Besides the 'Bo Rhap' fanfare, the ending of 'The Prophet's Song.' Haven't really checked it, but maybe Brian put a similar functional harmony at the end of 'Who Wants to Live Forever,' which I also love. Dunno.

* Races: I really like the I > bVI modulation on 'Lover Boy' via iv > bIII (vii > V), which is quite counter-intuitive, but it works, really well. The way the key returns to E-Flat Major via a simple bVI > V is brill.

* News: 'All Dead, All Dead,' and I admit I'm biased because it's by far my favourite song on the album, but that walking bass on the chorus is breathtaking.

* Jazz: 'Jealousy'... basically all of it.

* Game: Probably the middle-eight on 'Sister.' I > ii > I > IV > V/V > V > V/vi > vi > V/IV > IV > ivhalfdim ... then May-estically resolved to I for the solo.

* Flash: Another ascending chromatic one: the middle-eight of the title track.

* Hot Space: Probably the middle-eight on 'Life Is Real.'

* The Works: 'Hard Life' (pre-solo).

* Magic: The ending of 'Who Wants to Live Forever.'

* Miracle: Title track verse.

* Innuendo: Title track, orchestral bit.

* Made in Heaven: I agree with 'Winter's Tale.'

The March Of The Black Queen is great. I have less musical knowledge than you, but I tried to play it in piano and it's complex, not as songs like Teo Torriate which are far more simpler.

You are equating 'complex' with 'best'. 'Complex' can, perhaps, be agreed on. 'Best' is purely down to the individual taste of the listener. I think of the guitars in Sail Away Sweet Sister and the way they compliment each other, is that a 'harmony'? I think it is.

One of the best topics lately, ZBGM0 and Sebastian ^^
I don't have anything to contribute, but I got what you said, and I enjoy reading this kind of topic.
Thanks for pointing out: The piano transitions in BoRhap and WATC are very effective they made me want to jump in and sing.
For A Winter's Tale, I don't really know because it doesn't sound as dramatic as the 2 examples above, but I'll give it another listen.

I read in another forum some analysis about chord progressions by each member of the band, and how the poster guessed that Freddie chipped in quite often in John's songs just because of the chord progression proofs.

Sebastian, thanks.

I didn't expect so many great examples. It clearly indicates you are expert on this department and that you have a lot of experiences with it. I think there is not many people that know Queen songs so well harmonically, your Queen-knowledge is really great.

[QUOTE] [b]mooghead wrote:[/b]

You are equating 'complex' with 'best'. 'Complex' can, perhaps, be agreed on. 'Best' is purely down to the individual taste of the listener. I think of the guitars in Sail Away Sweet Sister and the way they compliment each other, is that a 'harmony'? I think it is.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it might look like I equated "best" with "more/most complex" (maybe I wasn't very careful about picking the words, especially because text is so long), BUT I believe that everyone understands (hopefully) that all I had in my mind was OPINION about your favorite song from harmonic point of view which is of course very subjective, depends on someone's taste.

HOWEVER, I believe there must be some level of complexity or something different involved in order to create harmonic masterpiece. And most people consider masterpiece as "one of my favorite", "best" or "one of the best" etc.



OF COURSE you can say:

"My favorite song (harmonically) is XYZ with 3 chords and I think it has much better harmony/chord progression than B. Rhap.,which is btw overrated (dis)harmonic garbage."

Yes, no problem, you can say this because it's subjective, but this is as saying "I think Justin Bieber is a better musician than Mozart". Most teenage girls would say that.

I hope I explained my view.

Excellent topic, very useful for people at my level who are just getting into music theory.

The middle section of '39 is very interesting to me, particularly in how it's so tonally ambiguous - I really wouldn't know what to call the tonic for much of that section.

[QUOTE] [b]mooghead wrote:[/b]
I think of the guitars in Sail Away Sweet Sister and the way they compliment each other, is that a 'harmony'? I think it is.[/QUOTE]

The guitars are harmonising, but that isn't quite the same thing as the overall concept of harmony which OP is referring to.

From a composition point of view, it is also interesting to look and compare the brilliance of the examples above with other songs in the catalogue that are pretty simple from a composition standpoint, but that are actually just as clever; an obvious example is 'I Want To Break Free' with just effectively a standard three chord blues progression in the verse, and the song has no chorus at all! 'The Hitman' is another song with no chorus...indeed for a band that is viewed as a 'singalong' hit single band it's impressive that quite a few songs of theirs don't actually have what would traditionally be viewed as a standalone chorus, and the 'hook' is actually often part of the verse!

I will never consider I Want To Break Free a clever song. It's one of the most uninspired sounding songs in their whole catalogue... well, bar the synth solo.

[QUOTE] [b]ZBGM0 wrote:[/b]

Why I even write this? because it seems to me that more complex harmony can give so much extra emotions to the song (and makes the song much better of course) IF the composer knows how to use it correct (depends on the lyrics of the song). I believe most people don't realize that advanced harmony had such a powerful role that made Freddie's songs so good. For instance: most Queen fans get shivers down the spine (they are excited) when Freddie in Boh Rhap at 1:23 starts to sing "Mamaaaaa ooooooh", what they don't realize is that it is not excited so much because of the lyrics or vocal but because Freddie created well planed modulation from Bb to Eb. He made very good transition when he sings "But now I've gone and thrown it all away" and then BOOOM explosion in Eb, that's why this "Mamaaaaa" sounds so dramatic. Boh Rhap is what it is mostly because of the more complex harmony, not just lyrics and good vocals.
[/QUOTE]

There are a lot of beautiful chords in Bohemian Rhapsody, I love all the finale after the heavy part, but above all I love the ending from "nothing really matters to me" with that chord progression Bb11 - Eb - Ab/Eb - Eb - Adim/Eb - Bb/D - Bbm/Db - C - C7b9 - C7 - F - Bb/F - F - Ddim/F - C7sus4 - F

Another song that I love it is the bridge of Lily Of The Valley (12 chords for 1 minute of song, not so bad :-P ), the part "I lie in wait with open eyes, I carry on through stormy skies", simple but very effective with the progression Dm - C#dim - Dm - C#dim - C - F, but maybe here the key is the expressive way which Freddie sings these lines